Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

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Unread postby shirou12 » March 29th, 2009, 10:43 am

^
hmm i think you missed some points, if you said the real nanaya shiki then his speed is unknown really and you cannot use the tohno shiki at tsukihime as reference for speed, after all tohno shiki on tsukihime is already restricted and his nanaya blood is in dormant state. and last, ryougi's eyes is much powerful than tohno shiki's.
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » March 29th, 2009, 11:27 am

This is getting nowhere, what happened to the Nanaya family (minus Shiki Tohno/Nanaya) versus Ryougi family (minus Shiki Ryougi) discussion?
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Unread postby shirou12 » March 29th, 2009, 11:58 am

in my opinion, disregarding the two shiki's and if ever the two families fight each other, for me, nanaya would win. Even if the ryougi's has different personas on each of them, they can be easily killed in shadows by the nanaya who are experts in assassinations. It would be worst if the battle occur in a place like forest or anything that has structures of baracades.
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » March 29th, 2009, 12:19 pm

so that means if the terrain favors one family over the other then that family will win.
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Unread postby shirou12 » March 29th, 2009, 12:24 pm

^
but ryougi's are good swordsmans thats why it would be a tough fight for nanayas even if they use their terrain advantage. The question is, which of those two families are faster? (in majority of course). Lets have a good look on the two heads. Ryougi's head as shown in kara no kyoukai movie 1 while sparring against shiki is good in handling swords, while kiri as provided by the KT is good in terms of dagger handling though his weapon is only A DRUM STICK?. Since both of them are heads, on battle, they could be use as front liners by both families.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » March 29th, 2009, 4:48 pm

Well if you're going to compare the MEoDP for both Ryougi and Nanaya it's more like this. In terms of strength Nanaya/Tohno Shiki wins since he got his eyes at a younger age so therefore it should be stronger even if they were sealed away by his glasses that shoata-can Aoko gave him.

As for control Ryougi Shiki is the one that is stronger in this field since she can willfuly switch her persona to show her the lines or to let her have a normal life. With that she doesn't need a seal for her eyes.

So if you want to do this in rank it might be something like this

Ryougi Shiki

MEoDP:
Strength: B+
Control: A

Nanaya/Tohno Shiki

MEoDP:
Strength: A
Controll: B-

It could be something like that.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 29th, 2009, 10:25 pm

eh...no.

Tohno Shiki loses in every way to Ryougi Shiki.

It is like sending an Ninja trainee against a experienced Samurai.

(the ninja has only a knife by the way.)
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Unread postby solopy567 » March 29th, 2009, 10:27 pm

And by averaging the two of them, The ryougi clan seems to win, since B+ and an A is higher than a B- and an A.

I vote for Ryougi cos she is awesome. I really could care less about which has more control or strength. I look for Garness
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » March 29th, 2009, 10:58 pm

Well like I sated the rank fo rthe strength and control were supposed to be a guess on my part. The reason why I did that would be to show that Tohno/Nanaya Shiki see the lines and points, while Ryougi Shiki sees only the lines. Although it's probably be because Nanaya/Tohno tends to focus too much on his target though.

Besides I also, showed that Ryougi would have better control over her eyes since she can willfully change that without any help of the Eye Killing Glasses. Although I kind of wonder what Ryougi Shiki would look like wearing glasses though. *drools*
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 29th, 2009, 11:27 pm

@solopy

Eh...not quite


Tohno Shiki sucks.

not the nanaya clan.

I mean Shiki's father could fight against Kouma, the strongest half demon ever(NOTE: he did it without super powers). I am sure Kiri would beat Ryougi anytime...
well... it is possible for her to do something very convinient after getting her ass kicked by the strongest demon hunter of the strongest demon hunter's clan like:


I stabbed myself and killed the damage.

or I just killed my own death

or something like that.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 30th, 2009, 12:25 am

.... Since when Tohno's Eyes> Ryougi's eyes? While he can see dots, that doesn't instantly mean win. Tohno Shiki sees death. Ryougi Shiki sees origin. Ryougi Shiki can kill inanimate things, even concepts and phenomena. Tohno Shiki can't.

It's been implied that Ryougi's Eyes >>>>> Tohno's. I don't see how people can argue otherwise.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » March 30th, 2009, 12:42 am

Well it's because Tohno/Nanaya Shiki tends to see the Lines and Points of Death. I mean he doesn't need to cut the line, but he can also do a simple "Dot Stab" instead. I mean he can win with either a slice move or a stab, while Ryougi would be the one to only slice to win a fight using MEoDP. That is problaby where the misunderstand on why Tohno/Nanaya is stronger with the Eyes. And not only that but he had obtained them at a young age while Ryougi only had them for less then a year to a year tops.
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Unread postby Iiyo » March 30th, 2009, 2:51 am

zweiterversuch wrote:WOW buddy! hold your horses!

she can create what ever she pleases?

when has she ever done that?

Kara no Kyoukai novels original epilogue. She doesn't actually do it, but she makes it clear she can.

Kid-Wolf wrote:Well like I sated the rank fo rthe strength and control were supposed to be a guess on my part. The reason why I did that would be to show that Tohno/Nanaya Shiki see the lines and points, while Ryougi Shiki sees only the lines. Although it's probably be because Nanaya/Tohno tends to focus too much on his target though.

Besides I also, showed that Ryougi would have better control over her eyes since she can willfully change that without any help of the Eye Killing Glasses. Although I kind of wonder what Ryougi Shiki would look like wearing glasses though. *drools*

You got that from the Kara no Kyoukai movie. Mind if I start measuring Tohno Shiki's stats from the Tsukihime anime? I'd say Ryougi Shiki would slaughter him in under a second. Anyway, Ryougi Shiki's eyes are permanently active, like it or not, but unlike Tohno Shiki, she doesn't have any problems with it. Also, just because you haven't seen Ryougi Shiki stab a person's dot of death doesn't mean she can't. Of course, that's not a good enough reason to believe she can, but THIS IS!
--- This bastard, I can't see him... !

Hiding her inner surprise, Shiki coldly looked the man over.

The death she could see on people if she merely wished to, this man doesn't have any.

If you felt along a human's body there were lines that put an end to the part they belonged to if they were cut. Whether those were the seams of life, or a weakness in the bonds between the molecules, Shiki didn't know. It just was that she could see them.

Without exception everyone she had seen until now had possessed those 'lines of death'.

But, upon this man, those lines were too faint.

Strongly, harder than she had ever done before, Shiki glares at the man. Her brain may have overheated, because she observed the opponent till a portion of her consciousness went white, only then could she see it.

... In the centre of his body, she can see a hole in the middle of his chest.

Going round and round like some child's scribbling the line is drawing a circle at one point. That might explain why it looks like a dot.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » March 30th, 2009, 3:35 am

Well actually I was going by what was stated in the Battle Moon Wars game when Tohno Shiki trains under Ryougi Shiki's guidance.

In any case it seems she needs to concentrate to see the point, but it can quite possibly burn her out if she overdoes it. As for Tohno/Nanaya Shiki it's the same thing, but that's what he normally sees. And that's just him without the glasses though.

As for the Tsukihime anime, that my good sir is blasphmey unto itself, since there is no such thing at all. Besides the firght scenes were poorly done that you couldn't figgure things out, so it's best to use th eViual novel for that. Heck even the manga might work as well.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 30th, 2009, 3:54 am

ehh...

well I think we should only use the novels as reference since Animes and Mangas aren't really a creation of Nasu. (He even said there were some things in Melty blood he didn't like. For instance the fact that shiki was shown as a fighter type.)
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Unread postby Iiyo » March 30th, 2009, 5:01 am

Kid-Wolf, Araya Souren is exceptional. It's laid on pretty thick that he has a ridiculously powerful resistance against the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, being guarded against it by both his origin "Standstill" which, because he is a process that already stands still, means he cannot be stopped by the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and the embedded sarira, which grants him a powerful inviolability which is also strong enough to resist the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. He also has a rather large accumulated weight of existence. (As it turns out, Ryougi Shiki's Mystic Eyes are considerably stronger than he imagined, but Araya's resistance is still strong enough to allow him to survive being pierced in his death dot. While it would still kill him in the end, he wasn't showing any signs of disappearing any time soon.) Tohno Shiki burns himself out just by seeing the lines on anything. Ryougi Shiki overheats slightly to see Araya Souren's death dot.

zweiterversuch, yeah, that's my point too. ;)
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » March 30th, 2009, 8:10 am

Nasu already stated that R. Shiki would win against N. Shiki, but did he say something about which clan will win in a fight between the Nanaya Clan (minus Shiki) and the Ryougi Clan (minus Shiki)?
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 30th, 2009, 8:44 am

Nanaya Clan isn't supposed to react against humans... Without combative nature, they have to rely solely on their manual battle training (not the one embedded in their blood).

Ryougi Clan, on the other hand, can switch between personalities without any strict limitations. And not to mention they are more accomplished as fighters than the Nanayas...
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » March 30th, 2009, 9:20 am

That means, there is no point in making the two families, not to mention the two Shiki's fight each other in the first place.
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Unread postby nobaka » March 30th, 2009, 10:36 am

In terms of the families:

All the Nanayas died. The Ryougis did not, and managed to produce children. Ryougi wins.
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