I'm surprised that Ciel...

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Miraploy
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread post by Miraploy » May 1st, 2008, 8:39 pm

shadow_Hiei wrote:Your second point is what make Ciel who she is. She IS an agent of the church, what do you expect, her to be more objective? I don't say she is a religious fanatic but her action dictates her position well.
I'm just wondering if she actually is a religious fanatic.

On this page here:
http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~typemoon/tsukihi ... church.htm

It says she doesn't actually believe in religion.

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Unread post by nobaka » May 1st, 2008, 9:09 pm

Crest wrote:I thought that Arcueid and the Church were under some kind of agreement?
It's not so much an agreement as an understanding that Arc will completely fuck their shit up if they mess with her. So they don't. As I understand it, she's just not interested in messing with them.

Also, Ciel isn't really that bad. She's just been tortured horrendously for extended periods of time. That kinda thing fucks a person up. All in all, I think she came out pretty well off.

For the record, Arc > Hisui > Ciel > Akiha = Kohaku

At least in my book.

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Unread post by Qaenyin Angelblade » May 3rd, 2008, 9:19 am

Something notable is that is the Tsukihime variant of Satsuki is any clue, vampires generally lose most of their compassion and kindness when they are turned, it being replaced by bloodlust.

As such, it's not at all unusual for Ciel to assume vampire=evil, since under general circumstances, vampires ARE evil, regardless of how kind they were in life. A vampire who is alive could very easily play the "innocence" card just to get away, especially considering that Ciel is rather infamous in their circles, and therefore their actions can't be reliably trusted either.

Fact of the matter is, even though Tsukihime has moe vampire/demon girls, that is not the norm. Considering how much Ciel's been through and quite possibly the length of time during which she has hunted them for the church, her being extremely distrustful of vampires and inhuman creatures is not at all strange.

Arcueid is understandable due to her being a True Ancestor who resists her bloodlust through force of will. In all honesty from a logical standpoint there is no reason for Satsuki to be compassionate. Hopefully the Satsuki route of Tsukihime's rerelease will explain exactly how she got around that.

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Unread post by Atriel » May 3rd, 2008, 5:25 pm

Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:Hopefully the Satsuki route of Tsukihime's rerelease will explain exactly how she got around that.
For some reason, i think she'll be screwed (Meaning: death. Not the other thing... well, that too.)

Let's hope i'm just paranoid about that. (She dying.)

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Unread post by abscess » May 3rd, 2008, 6:25 pm

Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:Something notable is that is the Tsukihime variant of Satsuki is any clue, vampires generally lose most of their compassion and kindness when they are turned, it being replaced by bloodlust.

As such, it's not at all unusual for Ciel to assume vampire=evil, since under general circumstances, vampires ARE evil, regardless of how kind they were in life. A vampire who is alive could very easily play the "innocence" card just to get away, especially considering that Ciel is rather infamous in their circles, and therefore their actions can't be reliably trusted either.

Fact of the matter is, even though Tsukihime has moe vampire/demon girls, that is not the norm. Considering how much Ciel's been through and quite possibly the length of time during which she has hunted them for the church, her being extremely distrustful of vampires and inhuman creatures is not at all strange.

Arcueid is understandable due to her being a True Ancestor who resists her bloodlust through force of will. In all honesty from a logical standpoint there is no reason for Satsuki to be compassionate. Hopefully the Satsuki route of Tsukihime's rerelease will explain exactly how she got around that.
I disagree with you. It is said numerous times ingame that vampires are
► Show Spoiler
Assuming that only because they kill humans for consumption would then could be aplicable to any other kind of animal that has happened to eat human beings, like lions, tigers, bears (I'm not too sure on that one though) or crocodiles or anything else. It is true though that most of the vampires that are shown are really fucked up,
► Show Spoiler
well there is an entire list to go through... They lose their compassion, that's true, but I think it's mostly due to their bloodlust that they cannot quench easily. Do take in acount that almost all of the vampires mentioned above
► Show Spoiler
and Satsuki has lived, as of melty,
► Show Spoiler
P.S: Sorry. I got a little carried away with the spoiler tags, but I don't wanna risk being banned for spoiling something for someone

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Unread post by abscess » May 3rd, 2008, 6:35 pm

Atriel wrote:
Qaenyin Angelblade wrote:Hopefully the Satsuki route of Tsukihime's rerelease will explain exactly how she got around that.
For some reason, i think she'll be screwed (Meaning: death. Not the other thing... well, that too.)

Let's hope i'm just paranoid about that. (She dying.)
Well... They can't kill her... well they can! but it wouldn't be canon. Since melty is quite well known and liked, and, if I'm correct, canonically speaking Satsuki IS alive. The main problem would be adapting the other character's routes at least so it is implied in a coherent manner that Satsuki is alive as a vampire once the remake is out. Because in every far-sided route Satsuki ends up being killed. By the way, in your liking list of Tsukihime characters, I've noticed that very few of you, perhaps none, take into account Satsuki, Akira and/or Akiha's friends, why is that, I wonder (well in Akiha's friends is understandable...)?

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Unread post by Atriel » May 4th, 2008, 1:54 am

Yes i know it's supposed to be Satsuki's route, but i think it's weird.

It doesn't make much sense to me. Why?

It is pretty much said that Shiki is with Arcueid.
And i think Satsuki doesn't appear in the Melty Blood storyline (i'm not sure about this one though... anyone can confirm?)

Unless Shiki bangs Satsuki, she dies, and then he gets together with Arcueid Sion > Hisui > Akiha - Satsuki - Kohaku > Ciel > Fuji-nee!

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Unread post by AlinSabel » May 4th, 2008, 2:21 am

Arcueid turned Roa, who then turned Satsuki. Vampire hierarchy?

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Unread post by abscess » May 6th, 2008, 8:01 am

Atriel wrote:Yes i know it's supposed to be Satsuki's route, but i think it's weird.

It doesn't make much sense to me. Why?

It is pretty much said that Shiki is with Arcueid.
And i think Satsuki doesn't appear in the Melty Blood storyline (i'm not sure about this one though... anyone can confirm?)

Unless Shiki bangs Satsuki, she dies, and then he gets together with Arcueid Sion > Hisui > Akiha - Satsuki - Kohaku > Ciel > Fuji-nee!
Trying to put in a list in order of who I like most to least I would put it more or less like this

[ ( Hisui = Kohaku ) > ( Akira = Arcueid = Satsuki ) >= ( Ciel = Akiha ) >= Hannepin ] >>>>> The other girl that happens to be akiha's friend and I always forget her name

I'm not too sure about this list, but I think it's more or less the... hierarchy, for a lack of better words. I don't know why, but I find the Kohaku and Hisui characters very interesting

P.S: Who is Fuji-nee???
Last edited by abscess on May 6th, 2008, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by AlinSabel » May 6th, 2008, 8:21 am

Fuji-nee is a character from F/SN. Friend of Shirou's father, Shirou's homeroom teacher and guardian. Kendo champion, has a habit of hitting him.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 9th, 2008, 6:08 am

Okay, huge spoilers for those who haven't actually played Tsukihime......
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by abscess » May 17th, 2008, 3:11 am

chasmirror wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Really? Where does it say that? Sticking to just Tsukihime game and nothing else and considering as canon any of the near sided paths, it's actually never revealed what happened to Satsuki. She just disappears and no one seems to care much as to look for her.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 3:17 am

abscess wrote:Really? Where does it say that? Sticking to just Tsukihime game and nothing else and considering as canon any of the near sided paths, it's actually never revealed what happened to Satsuki. She just disappears and no one seems to care much as to look for her.
Right, in Arc's route she disappears, and if we take that for canon there is no indication whether she's alive or dead.
Ciel is quite an expert in magic, such that even in the London Tower, there are only a few who can match her in terms of knowledge. This is due to her experience as the 17th Roa, since the original Roa was a very accomplished mage himself. She herself despise using magic though, probably because it reminds her of her days as Roa. While she gets into some misunderstanding in MB, it is still understandable considering her mistrust of vampires and the circumstances of the incidents. Besides, she wasn't that much off.
One thing I'm wondering about is how much memory/personality fusion occured. Does she have 800 years worth of memories or what?

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 3:42 am

abscess wrote:Really? Where does it say that? Sticking to just Tsukihime game and nothing else and considering as canon any of the near sided paths, it's actually never revealed what happened to Satsuki. She just disappears and no one seems to care much as to look for her.
This was revealed in the Tsukihime Dokuhon, a side material book published by Type-Moon(although there are some here that doesn't like me quoting this book...). It also mentions that Satsuhi herself had inert spiritual potential which allowed her to be more than a simple mindless vampire. Remember all the other undeads that Shiki and Arc hunted down, and how Satsuki was so unlike them, being conscious of her power and all? The book also says her potential actually matches that of 27 Dead Apostles, so much that had she not been exterminated, she might have joined the 27. On top of that, she owns a Reality Marble, too, although she herself is not aware of it.

Miraploy wrote: One thing I'm wondering about is how much memory/personality fusion occured. Does she have 800 years worth of memories or what?
I doubt she has all the memory of Roa's 800 years. Personality probably is separate, since in Tsukihime it is mentioned that the reason why Ciel was alive after the 17th Roa was killed was because her normally-would've-been-extinguished soul managed to survive in the corner of her mind, and took back the control of her body when the 17th Roa left her body. This is also why she was immortal as long as Roa existed.

As for the memory, Ciel herself only talked about how she regretted her deeds done WHILE she was Roa, so she probably only has Roa's memory AS the 17th only.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 4:05 am

I doubt she has all the memory of Roa's 800 years. Personality probably is separate, since in Tsukihime it is mentioned that the reason why Ciel was alive after the 17th Roa was killed was because her normally-would've-been-extinguished soul managed to survive in the corner of her mind, and took back the control of her body when the 17th Roa left her body. This is also why she was immortal as long as Roa existed.
You're probably right, but I'm not sure if that's exactly how it worked. Remember that the whole basis for her immortality is that she IS Roa. That's why she couldn't die, because Roa is not dead. As a result there probably was some kind of identity fusion, the nature of which is unclear.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 4:32 am

Miraploy wrote: You're probably right, but I'm not sure if that's exactly how it worked. Remember that the whole basis for her immortality is that she IS Roa. That's why she couldn't die, because Roa is not dead. As a result there probably was some kind of identity fusion, the nature of which is unclear.
Yes and no.

The reason for her immortality is that Ciel revived AS Ciel AFTER Roa left the body. Normally when Roa leaves his old body due to Arcueid or the church, the body dies because the body's original owner's soul is destroyed when Roa takes over. But Ciel's spiritual potential allowed her soul to stay intact inside of her mind, which kept the body alive even after Roa was gone.

This caused a paradox, because the 17th Roa(at least the body) was still alive while the 18th Roa(only as a soul) was also considered alive. The Universe solved this paradox by treating both as one and the same. Therefore, as long as Roa was alive, the 17th Roa, aka Ciel's body, could not die. This is the cause of her immortality.

Had there been that kind of identity fusion as you mentioned, then she would have also died when Roa was permanently killed by Shiki, not to mention that she wouldn't have mistaken Shiki for Roa in the first place.

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Unread post by abscess » May 17th, 2008, 5:15 am

Yes, I remember reading about Satsuki's uber potential in TypeMoon's wiki project but didn't know that she died no matter what route occurs... I was actually expecting you to quote that book. If it's not too much to ask, could you post a translation of that part?

I thought that in the game was explained that Ciel was Ciel and had nothing to do with Roa in terms of personality. One thing that I find kinda odd is that Ciel never aged when Roa was alive. Sure, having an old Ciel living who-knows-how-long, aging more and more as time goes by, would be something really crappy, but I don't get it why she never aged.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Miraploy » May 17th, 2008, 5:44 am

I'm sure that some sort of fusion and memory exchange occured.

Remember, Roa loses part of himself every time he bodyswaps. Why? Because he takes in parts of the host. Why else would he choose a wealthy host if he wouldn't retain any of his memories?

Also Shiki's experience in Ciel's route is very informative of the way that Roa takes over. It's not a sudden change in command, nor is it a sudden shoving aside of Shiki's will. Roa is a combination of desires and memories. Also Shiki does get Roa's memories, he remembers his experiences as 17 in France. So even if there wasn't a complete merger, there was a partial merger.

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Unread post by abscess » May 17th, 2008, 7:23 am

Miraploy wrote:I'm sure that some sort of fusion and memory exchange occured.
I'm sure you are wrong on this one. There is no "soul fusion" when Roa invades a host, he just takes over. from time to time the other soul seems to "wake up", as it happened with SHIKI (but I think that never happened before) but the souls stay as separate entities.
Miraploy wrote:Remember, Roa loses part of himself every time he bodyswaps. Why? Because he takes in parts of the host. Why else would he choose a wealthy host if he wouldn't retain any of his memories?
I don't fully understand what you want to say here. Are you saying that Roa takes rich families' baby because of their memory? I think it's said very explicitly in the game that he takes rich babies as their host because that makes the job of exterminating the whole town a lot easier than being a no-body's son/daughter.
Miraploy wrote:Also Shiki's experience in Ciel's route is very informative of the way that Roa takes over. It's not a sudden change in command, nor is it a sudden shoving aside of Shiki's will. Roa is a combination of desires and memories. Also Shiki does get Roa's memories, he remembers his experiences as 17 in France. So even if there wasn't a complete merger, there was a partial merger.
That was different, and it as not a merger. Because of the kind of bond Shiki had with SHIKI (remember that Shiki sometimes saw "himself" killing long haired women?), Shiki was able to get into Roa's memory and see his/her past but there was no kind of merging/fusion of souls. It's important to take note that Shiki does not have all of Roa's memory, he has like two or three of them if I remember, but from what you said I got that you said that he gets all of Roa's memories, which doesn't happen.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by chasmirror » May 17th, 2008, 9:14 am

abscess wrote:Yes, I remember reading about Satsuki's uber potential in TypeMoon's wiki project but didn't know that she died no matter what route occurs... I was actually expecting you to quote that book. If it's not too much to ask, could you post a translation of that part?
Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period page 190 wrote: Yumizuka Satsuki [ Name ]

Shiki's classmate. Also known as Sacchin.

A poor girl of who Shiki himself had no memory despite having been in the same class with Shiki a couple of times since the junior high.

She finds someone who looks like Shiki on the street which resulted in her being bitten by a vampire. After wandering the night streets as a half-vampire while her body and mind are breaking down, she meets Shiki and then her end.

A synonym for 'a tragic heroine.' The girl's wish wasn't answered even till the end, but hopely had a short-lived salvation however brief.

Actually had excellent potential for a vampire, as it is exceptional for one to act as a full vampire before not even a day has passed. How ironic that her potential was realized after her death. Therefore she is Sacchin, the heroine in obscurity.

However her true self is actually just a normal girl. She may match the 27 Dead Apostles abtitude-wise, but her personality is still too human and probably would have stayed forever as a half-vampire.

She joined as a playable character in the Melty Blood Re-act. One can enjoy a situation that is impossible in the original game. That she is an e-mail pal and the alley friend with Sion, this setting is based on the assumption that had Satsuki been alive and Sion came to Japan.

The reason why her throwing of dead bodies in the Tsukihime game was not her ultimate technique is because the Satsuki in the Re-act has not killed a person yet. If there was "Fully vampired Yumizuka Satsuki" character, perhaps that body-throwing might return again?
There you go.

abscess wrote: One thing that I find kinda odd is that Ciel never aged when Roa was alive. Sure, having an old Ciel living who-knows-how-long, aging more and more as time goes by, would be something really crappy, but I don't get it why she never aged.
Not sure. Perhaps it is a side effect of being a vampire, or maybe the Universe is preventing her aging in order to avoid the paradox of Ciel dying of old age despite Roa being still alive.

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