I'm surprised that Ciel...

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I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby shadow_Hiei » September 16th, 2007, 9:12 pm

...went anywhere on the popularity poll after this game.

1. Constantly places the blame on well-meaning people and attacks them

2. Lots of dumb laps in logic that lead to the former (you're a vampire, it must be you that's causing the problem; you're associated with Len, so you're to blame, etc.)

3. Shows how much less witty and badass she is than Akiha in posturing (again)

They pretty much removed all of her redeeming qualities while amplifying all of her bad ones. (except for the one that really made me hate her... people who've played the Ciel route in Tsukihime know what I'm talking about) Her charm in this game is nonexistent.
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Unread postby mir » September 17th, 2007, 12:03 am

But they made her scrub-friendly so that's ok =)
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Raven » September 17th, 2007, 2:54 am

shadow_Hiei wrote:1. Constantly places the blame on well-meaning people and attacks them

2. Lots of dumb laps in logic that lead to the former (you're a vampire, it must be you that's causing the problem; you're associated with Len, so you're to blame, etc.)


These two points are overlap, since if they don't your first point will imply she will target anyone randomly. However she does act base on a reasonable analysis or at least, educated guess.

Your second point is what make Ciel who she is. She IS an agent of the church, what do you expect, her to be more objective? I don't say she is a religious fanatic but her action dictates her position well.
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Unread postby Raw » September 17th, 2007, 4:31 am

This says it all.

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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby shadow_Hiei » September 17th, 2007, 11:43 pm

Raven wrote:
shadow_Hiei wrote:1. Constantly places the blame on well-meaning people and attacks them

2. Lots of dumb laps in logic that lead to the former (you're a vampire, it must be you that's causing the problem; you're associated with Len, so you're to blame, etc.)


These two points are overlap, since if they don't your first point will imply she will target anyone randomly. However she does act base on a reasonable analysis or at least, educated guess.


Educated guess my ass. What could possibly make her jump to the conclusion that Satsuki's to blame? Satsuki in this timeline would commit suicide before she allowed herself to become a monster that Shiki would hate, and she doesn't have the power needed to cause that kind of problem. The former goes for Arcueid as well. She wouldn't betray Shiki. Worst case scenario, she'd go back to her castle. If Ciel had half a brain, she'd know that.

Your second point is what make Ciel who she is. She IS an agent of the church, what do you expect, her to be more objective? I don't say she is a religious fanatic but her action dictates her position well.


And its also her second worst quality. Just because she's an agent of the church doesn't mean that she has to be a braindead belligerent zealot. Its her job as an agent of the Vatican to take action against hostile transcended beings that threaten humans, but its her job as an agent of God to preach love and redemption to everybody that's willing to listen, especially the really heavy sinners (any doctrine that says differently is poor interpretation and/or paranoia), and to try her best to set everyone around her down the morally correct path. (I could get into a whole religious discussion here about why that kind of "thinking" (and I use that word very loosely) where they just look in the Bible and take everything at face value or manipulate passages to justify their immoral shit pisses me off, but that's a discussion for another forum) She does a very poor job as an agent of God.
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Raven » September 18th, 2007, 12:44 am

shadow_Hiei wrote:Educated guess my ass. What could possibly make her jump to the conclusion that Satsuki's to blame? Satsuki in this timeline would commit suicide before she allowed herself to become a monster that Shiki would hate, and she doesn't have the power needed to cause that kind of problem. The former goes for Arcueid as well. She wouldn't betray Shiki. Worst case scenario, she'd go back to her castle. If Ciel had half a brain, she'd know that.


A vamprie is a vamprie, it's not a far fetch conclusion to assume that some kind of colateral damage will or may happen even if it's un-intentional, that goes for both Arcueid and Satsuki. And again, this is the naturel of her posiotion.


And its also her second worst quality. Just because she's an agent of the church doesn't mean that she has to be a braindead belligerent zealot. Its her job as an agent of the Vatican to take action against hostile transcended beings that threaten humans, but its her job as an agent of God to preach love and redemption to everybody that's willing to listen, especially the really heavy sinners (any doctrine that says differently is poor interpretation and/or paranoia), and to try her best to set everyone around her down the morally correct path.



No, I strongly disagree with this, Ciel will fail half of her purpose as a character if she berhave the way you descripe. She is an execution of the Church, not a preacher, her job is to hunt and kill her objective in the name of god, not spreading the love and his teaching. She spread salvation and atonment, but not through words but death (a very common paradism, think about witch hunt).

Think like in the old world there are part of a government to tend to the need of people with care and love, and there are shadowy branch to do the dirty work, all for the good of the country (take example like the Ninja clans in ancient Japan). It's the 2 faces of one coin, and Ciel is the one face that people don't see often, one that would have more benefit with fear rather then love.

Sure, if she's bishop, then maybe. But again, she's an executioner, and she carries herself well for the role given to her, now if you don't like that role is a different matter. Plus not all characters had to act on a general open mindset although it's considered the ideal one, because gosh a story would be boring like that. Ciel is still a rational character, but within a mind set the define her character in the story. As an agent of the Church (an excocist), being a vamprie is good enough to be found guilty for all intend and purposes.
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Raw » September 18th, 2007, 3:07 am

Educated guess my ass. What could possibly make her jump to the conclusion that Satsuki's to blame? Satsuki in this timeline would commit suicide before she allowed herself to become a monster that Shiki would hate, and she doesn't have the power needed to cause that kind of problem. The former goes for Arcueid as well. She wouldn't betray Shiki. Worst case scenario, she'd go back to her castle. If Ciel had half a brain, she'd know that.

Your second point is what make Ciel who she is. She IS an agent of the church, what do you expect, her to be more objective? I don't say she is a religious fanatic but her action dictates her position well.


And its also her second worst quality. Just because she's an agent of the church doesn't mean that she has to be a braindead belligerent zealot. Its her job as an agent of the Vatican to take action against hostile transcended beings that threaten humans, but its her job as an agent of God to preach love and redemption to everybody that's willing to listen, especially the really heavy sinners (any doctrine that says differently is poor interpretation and/or paranoia), and to try her best to set everyone around her down the morally correct path. (I could get into a whole religious discussion here about why that kind of "thinking" (and I use that word very loosely) where they just look in the Bible and take everything at face value or manipulate passages to justify their immoral shit pisses me off, but that's a discussion for another forum) She does a very poor job as an agent of God.


First of all, Arcueid is a True Ancestor, so she's a priority target for the Church. Even if Arc loves Shiki, she can go in berserker mode and obliterate the town on a single night. So she can't be trusted by her appearance.

Second, the whole love and redemption thing just applies to humans, not heretics. Heretics being transcendental races, such as vampires. Also, she's a burial agency member, a secret organization that is fanatical.

Instead off getting pissed off and ranting the s*** out people, fill your post with quality over quantity. Even if i'm defending Ciel, i still think she should bring out her emotions a bit more. Her true being doesn't fit with her executioner job. She should quit. It's not like she can't defend herself from the other burial agency agents.
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Unread postby shenny » September 27th, 2007, 11:38 pm

i don't like ciel. i went to catholic school, so her clothing brings back bad memories. and she is mean to seven
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Unread postby serialies » October 27th, 2007, 3:59 pm

your forgetting that shes had a very hard life surrounding those of non-human decent (aka roa...), so its not unreasonable to think that when it comes to situations regarding the latter her emotions would have influence on her logic.

and her "nice" personality 1. involves acting + brainwashing 2. applys only to human people 3. does not change the fact that her life is basically the churce therefore she would do things against her personality even if it means acting/becoming temporarily a "braindead belligerent zealot"

also note that ciel doesnt care/mind executing most people/things because if the church says its bad, its bad to her too, so her personality doesnt matter if she is indifferent to or desires the death of her target
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Unread postby Crest » November 11th, 2007, 1:54 am

I thought that Arcueid and the Church were under some kind of agreement?
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Einherjar » November 11th, 2007, 4:06 am

Raven wrote:
shadow_Hiei wrote:Educated guess my ass. What could possibly make her jump to the conclusion that Satsuki's to blame? Satsuki in this timeline would commit suicide before she allowed herself to become a monster that Shiki would hate, and she doesn't have the power needed to cause that kind of problem. The former goes for Arcueid as well. She wouldn't betray Shiki. Worst case scenario, she'd go back to her castle. If Ciel had half a brain, she'd know that.


A vamprie is a vamprie, it's not a far fetch conclusion to assume that some kind of colateral damage will or may happen even if it's un-intentional, that goes for both Arcueid and Satsuki. And again, this is the naturel of her posiotion.


And its also her second worst quality. Just because she's an agent of the church doesn't mean that she has to be a braindead belligerent zealot. Its her job as an agent of the Vatican to take action against hostile transcended beings that threaten humans, but its her job as an agent of God to preach love and redemption to everybody that's willing to listen, especially the really heavy sinners (any doctrine that says differently is poor interpretation and/or paranoia), and to try her best to set everyone around her down the morally correct path.



No, I strongly disagree with this, Ciel will fail half of her purpose as a character if she berhave the way you descripe. She is an execution of the Church, not a preacher, her job is to hunt and kill her objective in the name of god, not spreading the love and his teaching. She spread salvation and atonment, but not through words but death (a very common paradism, think about witch hunt).

Think like in the old world there are part of a government to tend to the need of people with care and love, and there are shadowy branch to do the dirty work, all for the good of the country (take example like the Ninja clans in ancient Japan). It's the 2 faces of one coin, and Ciel is the one face that people don't see often, one that would have more benefit with fear rather then love.

Sure, if she's bishop, then maybe. But again, she's an executioner, and she carries herself well for the role given to her, now if you don't like that role is a different matter. Plus not all characters had to act on a general open mindset although it's considered the ideal one, because gosh a story would be boring like that. Ciel is still a rational character, but within a mind set the define her character in the story. As an agent of the Church (an excocist), being a vamprie is good enough to be found guilty for all intend and purposes.


It's not like Ciel never does anything she likes, namely with the relationship between Shiki and staying in the city when she is not suppose to. In the good ending of Ciel, she did not show much hostility toward Arc (other than being a love rival) which shows that she really doesn't mind a vampire like her. In Arc's route, She even allowed Shiki to hunt down Roa, ultimately saving Arc. This proves that CIEL doesn't always follow her orders like an agent dog. Do you think she loves church, for killing her countless number of times? I think not. Before I finish, I would like to say that your negative response to people's comments are quite annoying and this is not the first time I see this.
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby serialies » November 12th, 2007, 2:55 am

Einherjar wrote:
It's not like Ciel never does anything she likes, namely with the relationship between Shiki and staying in the city when she is not suppose to. In the good ending of Ciel, she did not show much hostility toward Arc (other than being a love rival) which shows that she really doesn't mind a vampire like her. In Arc's route, She even allowed Shiki to hunt down Roa, ultimately saving Arc. This proves that CIEL doesn't always follow her orders like an agent dog. Do you think she loves church, for killing her countless number of times? I think not. Before I finish, I would like to say that your negative response to people's comments are quite annoying and this is not the first time I see this.


i didnt see him (raven) being rude or anything in his post and if you mean "negative" as in disagreeing then your missing the point of having disscussions...

however i do agree that ciel isnt mindless...depends on the scenario/situation really, i mean shes been used as a gag character many times + some BAWWW scenes so obviously shes not "mindless", but she tries to be "mindless" when doin her job
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Einherjar » November 12th, 2007, 1:13 pm

serialies wrote:
Einherjar wrote:
It's not like Ciel never does anything she likes, namely with the relationship between Shiki and staying in the city when she is not suppose to. In the good ending of Ciel, she did not show much hostility toward Arc (other than being a love rival) which shows that she really doesn't mind a vampire like her. In Arc's route, She even allowed Shiki to hunt down Roa, ultimately saving Arc. This proves that CIEL doesn't always follow her orders like an agent dog. Do you think she loves church, for killing her countless number of times? I think not. Before I finish, I would like to say that your negative response to people's comments are quite annoying and this is not the first time I see this.


i didnt see him (raven) being rude or anything in his post and if you mean "negative" as in disagreeing then your missing the point of having disscussions...

however i do agree that ciel isnt mindless...depends on the scenario/situation really, i mean shes been used as a gag character many times + some BAWWW scenes so obviously shes not "mindless", but she tries to be "mindless" when doin her job


Maybe not very negative, but a bit Annoying. nonetheless, Ciel is Ciel as the agent of church. I would say that she has different personalities (well, two) depending on the situation.
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Raven » November 19th, 2007, 7:41 am

serialies wrote:your forgetting that shes had a very hard life surrounding those of non-human decent (aka roa...), so its not unreasonable to think that when it comes to situations regarding the latter her emotions would have influence on her logic.

and her "nice" personality 1. involves acting + brainwashing 2. applys only to human people 3. does not change the fact that her life is basically the churce therefore she would do things against her personality even if it means acting/becoming temporarily a "braindead belligerent zealot"

also note that ciel doesnt care/mind executing most people/things because if the church says its bad, its bad to her too, so her personality doesnt matter if she is indifferent to or desires the death of her target



It is possible that when she acts on her job, she just shutdown her emotional module. Not really a new idea in novel. She may lead two faces, one that of the Ciel had her life was normal, one as the argent of the church. If anything it just enrich her personality. Also like you said, she may poccess love, just for human only. Think like the German in WWII or the KKK, they harbor strong hatred for other races that they can cut down anyone merciless, that make them in the eyes of others a mindless/emotionless killing machine. But we know that is not the case, they certainly can love and show affectionate within their own group, for Ciel it's the human.


And Einherjar, check your PM.
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Re: I'm surprised that Ciel...

Unread postby Einherjar » November 19th, 2007, 1:52 pm

Einherjar, what is the bloody point in quoting the ENTIRE previous post, only to reply with a single line? --- MSG

Well, I thought that she was always acting until she finally broke down when she was about to kill Shiki.
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Unread postby noradseven » January 19th, 2008, 5:08 am

YOU GUYS ARE ALL WRONG!!!! (not to be confrontational or anything)

Everyone knows that Ciel has the hots for Shiki and she is just trying to eliminate all of her competition. Cause Shiki apparently likes vampires and demons and stuff.
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Unread postby Kanzar » January 19th, 2008, 8:30 am

...I do believe it's deeper than that...
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Unread postby zeldaevolution » January 21st, 2008, 5:03 pm

Kanzar wrote:...I do believe it's deeper than that...

And I think that this topic is...
shadow_Hiei wrote:pretty much removed all of her redeeming qualities while amplifying all of her bad ones.

Not that I noticed it, but most of people here don't like Ciel, I think.
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Unread postby serialies » January 22nd, 2008, 11:06 am

i like Ciel...its just that i like Akiha, Arc, and Len more

oh but her curry fetish is just plain wierd...but then again drinking blood usually isnt seen as a redeeming quality either *shrug*.
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Unread postby zeldaevolution » January 23rd, 2008, 1:01 pm

serialies wrote:i like Ciel...its just that i like Akiha, Arc, and Len more

oh but her curry fetish is just plain wierd...but then again drinking blood usually isnt seen as a redeeming quality either *shrug*.


I like Ciel too, but is curry too much weird for her?...
I think it's her signature for her.
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