Walachia's Dead Apostle Power.... [Spoiler]

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Walachia's Dead Apostle Power.... [Spoiler]

Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 11th, 2007, 4:52 am

I was wondering as I played through the Melty Blood story. How strong is he really? I know Arcueid is obviously stronger than him. But would say Ciel and Nero Chaos be too much for him to handle? It's kinda hard to gauge him against Shiki. >_>
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Unread postby puKKa » May 11th, 2007, 8:12 am

If you played through story mode you should know that walachia is just a manifistation of thoughts. The worse the rumor, the worse the curse gets and the stronger he becomes. So he's power is really relative though I dunno if there is a limit to how strong he can grow.
Last edited by puKKa on May 14th, 2007, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 11th, 2007, 3:44 pm

Well, I was speaking of his actual Dead Apostle power. When Arcueid returned him back to his original state using her reality marble and the red moon. That's why I said Dead Apostle power.
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Unread postby puKKa » May 11th, 2007, 3:53 pm

Impractic_Shiki wrote:
Well, I was speaking of his actual Dead Apostle power. When Arcueid returned him back to his original state using her reality marble and the red moon. That's why I said Dead Apostle power.


ic, that's another thing ^^
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 11th, 2007, 4:10 pm

So it's more a matter of casual chatter that I wished to create for the forum.
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Unread postby Dectilon » May 11th, 2007, 8:52 pm

I'm a little confused about him myself. He seems to be a thing that exists only on Walpurgisnacht, growing stronger on the rumors about what horror is going to happen. On the other hand, he is Zubia (or Zephia or whatever), a ancestor of Sion. His name is also divided by a slash, Walach/TATARI. Tatari means curse, if I'm not mistaken so I'm going to go ahead and presume this is the thing that rises on Walpurgisnacht while Walach is Zephia gone Apostle.

To make a Fate comparison I'd say that if Nero is Berserker (The kind of guy you'd rather stab in the back if all possible since direct combat isn't a very good option) then TATARI would be Caster I'd say (A formidable foe, but relies more on the ability to affect things from afar, and create soldiers.)

I could almost say Shiki could be Rider (Not really the best fighter in most situations although he can hold his own, but if he gets a chance to use his "special ability" then the fight is pretty much over).

Walach however seems to be somewhere along the lines of Lancer (Violent and mad basically ;) )

Ciel would most likely not have that much of a chance one on one, although she would win in the end since she keeps healing up. : P Nero is, as I think Arcueid says, in a league of his own. He would probably smash Walach if he made an effort.
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 11th, 2007, 9:31 pm

Yes, you basically have the idea there. Like Roa, his existence is dependent on others and like Roa certain conditions have to be met in order for Tatari to appear. Walachia, I imagine, is the name the church gave him given his first appearance (...and thus the identification as a DA) and Tatari was probably added after the massacre when the church's people refused to listen to Sia. I imagine the terminology of "rumor" is best used for the sake of dumbing down the complexity of the being. One of the things about the writing in the Tsukihime universe (especially in regards to the Dead Apostles) has been the complexity surrounding them.

From my impressions of Roa, Walachia, and Nero---it's like each is an abstract set of philosophies and emotions. That would be my best way to describe them in my opinion. Nero and Roa were pretty pinned down given the multiple examinations of them in Tsukihime, I believe. Walachia (Zepia in terms of his human name) wasn't fully explored until Route 1 in Melty Blood so it's a bit hard to understand his powers. Basically, he creates that Reality in which "rumors" or rather thoughts---fearful thoughts (as illustrated throughout MB even when he "helped"--people feared crops not coming through and such) allows him to come into some type of human being in which to collect blood.

In terms of the pact that was made for him to become that type of information-based being---it'd be hard to akin him to anything in Fate-Stay Night. Rather, I'd akin him to the Holy Grail if we're going by comparisons. Since the Holy Grail requires certain events to happen for it to come into being---it's the same as his Tatamari ("curse") self.

But back to my focus: Zepia/Walachia's DA powers. I'm rather interested in evil characters. My friends say I have a bad guy complex. ^^; Generally, good guys have their limits in terms of character development so I turn towards the other side normally since they have a more expansive set of limits.

It's hard to characterize him in terms of Fate/Stay Night since I'm surmising based on his well, attacks, that you can execute in Melty Blood. He seems like Caster to me in terms of magical and illusion based fighting (the illusion element being---I don't see how a cape could hurt you otherwise besides the illusion of his reality marble giving it deadly force).

I agree Nero would be a Berserker though.

I brought up Ciel obviously because of her regenerative properties, but no one ever destroyed her fully. Like Nero's 666 Beasts that allow him to heal, she always seems to have some part of her body left through the course of Tsukihime. She's not a vampire and even Roa would have died in SHIKI's body had it not been a full moon on the occasion where he was dead to his ankles from Arcueid's attack.

I believe it was mentioned that Walachia took in all the fluids (I'm pretty sure water was mentioned---maybe I'm wrong) and not just the blood. In the description of his mask-like face it talks about the blood oozing out non-stop. So I got the impression that he's a total essence sucker whereas what he absorbs cannot be contained 'lest his pores are shut (given his eyes are closed normally). So I wonder what would happen if Ciel was obliterated to nothing by magic after say---Walachia drained her.

In the case of Nero, I had that thought because he seemed to talk down to his body (#10) always whenever he possessed it (...and lost with it). So to a degree, it sounded like he felt he was stronger than it. That might have just been due to the Tatamari power at the time, but it led me to wonder.

Because it seemed as if Walachia still had power over his reality marble after being transformed back---in which case that is why I assume his cape can well....hurt you. I wonder how it would conflict with Nero's. Given all Nero has absorbed---I wonder if Walachia could draw of the fear maybe felt on a completely forgotten level by the chaos that is Nero's body. If that's the case, I wonder if he could materialize it in a form that could completely destroy Nero at once from literally the inside out.

But those are just my ramblings.
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Unread postby Dectilon » May 11th, 2007, 10:14 pm

Well, as far as I understood it, whether Ciel is completely destroyed or not doesn't matter, because it's not acctual healing going on, it's time travel : )

That's quite the complex theory you have there on Nero vs Walach ;) If the chaos in Nero is true chaos, then logically it shouldn't contain anything as complex as an emotion ;) Chaos has a bad reputation :( It means disorder, that's all (which is interesting, because chaos looks rather orderly). Order is when some kind of pattern is invoked. Say that a dough is chaos. All the ingredienses are spread evenly if you stir it long enough. However, if you forcefully shape it into a bun it has order. etc etc...

So basically, what Nero will eventually become is a substance not unlike raw oil (like a dinosaur!) ;)

Hmm... I guess the choice of battleground matters the most. His best chances are probably places like occupied Iraq cities. A lot of fear around there. His worst are probably... hmm... well... here? Scandinavia? : )

Not much fear here atm. Why do Japan get all the vampires anyway? They belong in their pristine romanian castles! : D
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........

Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 11th, 2007, 11:28 pm

Ciel's healing was a reversal as I understood it. Not so much time travel as time doesn't turn back and proceeds onward. However, in each visually shown case she's still of one body. Generally, it seems like people are more into torturing her than fully ending her life. >_>

That's why I arose the question about elimination to the point of an entire body. I dunno if she can regenerate from one cell or not. Hence my question there.

Well, as for the chaos and order element you have to consider what something as complex as emotions are. Emotions themselves can be considered disorder. It depends on how philosophical you wish to get. Given how warped the orderly Nero Chaos can be, I was wondering if there was a series of inner turmoils going on inside of him. He can't control what comes out or when that happens to a large-scale extent. So I'm wondering if the beasts inside feel a type of fear or rage that allows them to react at certain points. As if their chaotic elements are part of the whole yet separated enough by the remotest traces that remain in that disorder.

Walachi himself was able to become Chaos from just Shiki's slight worry and remembrance. So I also wonder if he could rewarp the beasts emerging from Chaos in a type of self-inflicting counter. Chaos can be used as a synonym for turmoil which is theoretically what Walachi can use. So that's where I ponder. There's no real answer. It would depend on the contents of Chaos himself. That's why I'm hoping Tsukihime's other sequel KT gets fully translated sometime. One story was about the girl in the park that Chaos took in. So that would give me more to work off.

As for Walachi/Tatari he can only work off small towns since it's harder to manage. Sion mentioned that at one point. So, say, Chaos' battlegrounds with Shiki: The hotel and the park---

During Chaos' massacre, I imagine he could have become Chaos himself there or one of his beasts.

In the park, I wonder if Walachi could work off the latent fears there. Without actual people but the air they created. Sion said Tatari couldn't form if there were no people (most likely since he'd have no blood to suck) but what about forming in a spot that held a lot of rumors/feelings expressed by the people?

It's hard to compare two enigmas as such.

There's no real motivation between two in such a fight. >_> But it'd be nice eye candy.
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Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » May 13th, 2007, 6:56 pm

The reason Walachia, presumably, can beat people to death with a cape, is the fact that it's not a cape, it's an extension of him. Kind of like how chaos can make anything out of his "chaos", Walachia can control the form of his "TATARI-stuff". So he can make his cape sharp, hard, etc. Hence why he can make his claws all extendo-jab. Likewise I'm sure Shiki Tohno could probably cut something in half by using the edge of a tablecloth presuming the target wasn't able to dodge and had lines in the right place. I don't believe it was ever stated it had to be a knife, just thin enough to cut through the lines.
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Unread postby Dectilon » May 13th, 2007, 9:13 pm

It's fun to discuss these things (although I'm sure you noticed I'm not 100% serious ;) ), but the fights in the Tsukihime universe are quite hard to weed out. Basically, just because you gut something doesn't mean it dies (Ciel should be very very dead several times over. I think she says something about her body travelling back to the moment she became Roa, although it looks like it's healing. As Roa, she did get killed (just as an example) by Arcueid (otherwise Roa wouldn't have left). Same thing goes with Roa, just because you kill him doesn't mean you've won. Once again with Nero and Arc, you can kill 'em, but they keep coming back ^^

Now Shiki is a little different, but I doubt anyone really knows how the power works. Who knows, maybe some part of Nero is slinking about, piecing him together again. No way to be sure.

And I like it this way! The way that the world isn't "fixable" by fighting. If one vampire dies, another will step in to take its place. The way that killing things isn't something done easy. It affects your sanity.

Is it said somewhere that feelings leave aftermath? I know it's a popular thing in ghost stories, but does it apply here?
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Unread postby puKKa » May 14th, 2007, 10:15 am

I added a spoiler tag in the topic and removed all tags in the posts instead.
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 14th, 2007, 5:58 pm

The reason Walachia, presumably, can beat people to death with a cape, is the fact that it's not a cape, it's an extension of him. Kind of like how chaos can make anything out of his "chaos", Walachia can control the form of his "TATARI-stuff". So he can make his cape sharp, hard, etc. Hence why he can make his claws all extendo-jab. Likewise I'm sure Shiki Tohno could probably cut something in half by using the edge of a tablecloth presuming the target wasn't able to dodge and had lines in the right place. I don't believe it was ever stated it had to be a knife, just thin enough to cut through the lines.


Yeah, I figured that was the reason for him. More precisely its his reality marble that creates the Tatari bit though. As for Shiki, I don't believe there was any comments on it being a knife. It's just what was conveniently used and it fits the street serial killer bit that Shiki is afflicted with.

Once again with Nero and Arc, you can kill 'em, but they keep coming back ^^


Yeah, that's quite true. >_> I was just curious about Walachia because, well, he seemed to die so fast. For me, it was kind of like watching Nero die in the anime. Kinda, "huh?" feeling after it. It can't really be helped given the medium of Melty Blood but I just got that vibe. It's kind of hard to transition for me after absorbing the Tsukihime writing for so long---especially fight-wise.

I'd feel bad if he were weak because Nero + him are the coolest looking Dead Apostles that I've seen image-wise.

Now Shiki is a little different, but I doubt anyone really knows how the power works. Who knows, maybe some part of Nero is slinking about, piecing him together again. No way to be sure.


Well, Nero technically had his existence destroyed. That's really what Shiki does. He sees the "death" and makes the object/person/etc cease to exist.

Is it said somewhere that feelings leave aftermath? I know it's a popular thing in ghost stories, but does it apply here?


Depends on whose feelings you're referencing. I imagine TYPE-MOON relies a good deal on fan feelings since I think they're considered a doujin group yet. That's likely why Nero made an appearance again in Melty Blood. If you're talking about in the context of the world....

Well, there are so many Tsukihime endings where things are different. Technically, Nero could be alive yet in all the Near Side of the Moon routes. Tatari can be alive in them too. _>
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Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » May 14th, 2007, 6:13 pm

Actually "Nero" did not have his existence destroyed. "Fabro Rowan" had his existence destroyed. Which is why the "Dawn" sidestory in Kagetsu Tohya is possible.

As for Walachia, though it was somewhat anticlimactic, keep in mind A:this is a fighting game, and B:He only died about as fast as Roa/SHIKI in tsukihime(once he actually showed up). The story itself seems to be more about Sion and her past and personality than it does specifically seem to be about just going and beating the snot out of TATARI.
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 14th, 2007, 6:55 pm

Actually "Nero" did not have his existence destroyed. "Fabro Rowan" had his existence destroyed. Which is why the "Dawn" sidestory in Kagetsu Tohya is possible.


That's kind of nice to know. >_> I suppose. Additionally spoilish.

As for Walachia, though it was somewhat anticlimactic, keep in mind A:this is a fighting game, and B:He only died about as fast as Roa/SHIKI in tsukihime(once he actually showed up). The story itself seems to be more about Sion and her past and personality than it does specifically seem to be about just going and beating the snot out of TATARI.


Well, the Roa/SHIKI dead rate varies per arc. It's more about Sion---true, but I still had hoped for more. But that's just me. >_>
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Unread postby Dectilon » May 14th, 2007, 7:30 pm

Well, Nero technically had his existence destroyed. That's really what Shiki does. He sees the "death" and makes the object/person/etc cease to exist.


While I admitedly haven't read Melty Blood (the translated version) I have read through the entirety of Tsukihime, so that I know : P
However, if I remember correctly most people who made any sort of comment on the ability said it was rather mysterious and that not that much was known about it. Just because they say it does a certain thing doesn't meant it's true.
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 14th, 2007, 8:32 pm

Well, Arcueid was the one who made the comment, I believe.

I don't believe anyone in the Near Side of the Moons comment on it.

Ciel, I believe, doesn't either.

As for them saying, it's likely a guard in case they wish to revisit other stuff. The KT example brought up likely being that.

*cough* Sacchin route? >_>
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Re: ........

Unread postby Qaenyin Angelblade » May 15th, 2007, 6:15 am

Actually "Nero" did not have his existence destroyed. "Fabro Rowan" had his existence destroyed. Which is why the "Dawn" sidestory in Kagetsu Tohya is possible.


That's kind of nice to know. >_> I suppose. Additionally spoilish.


Topic has a spoiler tag for a reason :wink:
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Unread postby Arlieth Tralare » May 15th, 2007, 10:10 am

Note about Nero:

In some routes during the Shiki-Nero fight, after Shiki pierces Nero's 'dot', Arcueid saves Shiki from being killed by one of Nero's crows. In other routes, Shiki is saved by Arc molding a piece of 'chaos' into his flesh to heal him. Thus there is a plot-hole available for Nero's resurrection. However, that one bit alone wouldn't be enough to bring Nero to full force- his ability 'Soil of Genesis' requires as much energy as the destruction of a continent to activate.
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Unread postby Dectilon » May 15th, 2007, 11:48 am

I wonder, do they get these abilities included in the vampire package or are they sold separately? Do they have name labels or are they just invented names?
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