"Len" and "Yumiduka"

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"Len" and "Yumiduka"

Unread postby Question » November 28th, 2006, 3:45 pm

Does anyone know why Ren is called "Len" and Yumizuka became "Yumiduka"? I mean, tsukihime and kagetsu tohya already established what their names were, so how did they suddenly get changed by French-Bread?
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Unread postby Message » November 28th, 2006, 5:42 pm

Tsukihime does not use romanized names at all and as far as I know neither does KT, so nothing changed. Japanese just tend to use slightly different romanization methods than what we are used to. Yumizuka/Yumiduka is a Japanese name and should be written with the appropriate kanji, so it makes no real difference how you romanize it. Ren on the other hand might actually be called Len, although I'm not sure about that. See also terms like roricon (=lolicon) and Kannaduki no Miko (=Kannazuki no Miko).
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Unread postby marus » November 28th, 2006, 11:19 pm

Well, in the Colorful Moon fanbook レン is romanized as Len, so that's what I usually refer to her as, but it seems most people are in favor of Ren.
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Unread postby Question » November 29th, 2006, 1:38 am

What about the pronounciation? Wouldnt you pronounce it as "Yumizuka" and not "Yumiduka" which doesnt even sound japanese, or "Ren" vs "Len"?
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Unread postby Elric of Grans » November 29th, 2006, 3:36 am

Len/Ren is an obvious tip-up given Japanese `r' sounds (to me, at least) somewhere between an `r', and `l' and a `d'. R/L confusion in romanisation is pretty common and it is not unusual to even see conflicting official romanisations here.

Yumizuka/Yumiduka is a little harder. The individual kanji in her name are `Yumi' and `Tsuka' so -zuka would make more sense to me, but I am not fluent. Perhaps a native speaker could comment on the more probable pronunceation of those kanji?
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Unread postby nekosasu » December 2nd, 2006, 5:45 pm

Well I'm not a native speaker nor have I ever had lessons ;_; but I know that issue since had been pondering ages ago with fansub team how the title of Kannazuki no Miko should be spelled. Actually, it's Yumidzuka, because logically, if you take the symbol for tsu つ , and if you add the radical " it becomes dzu づ, like the others ta た -> da だ.

As for how it's pronunciated, it's Yumitzuka, altough you shouldn't emphasize on the tzu... make it yumizzuka lol.

I might be wrong though.

(een still i wonder why they spell it Yumiduka, is it to point the difference out?? i can't imagine pronunciating it like that >_>)
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Unread postby Yuber » December 10th, 2006, 12:07 pm

Uhm.. the answer is pretty simple. Japanese CAN'T write in romaji. They sucks at it,even with japanese names like Yumizuka.. (I can understand how Ren became Len but.. Yumiduka..) Other examples: Super Robot Taisen Original Generation, in some artworks Shirogane and Hiryuu Kai became "Shilowgane" and "Hiryuu Kwai"..
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Unread postby Elric of Grans » December 10th, 2006, 10:03 pm

There is no `dzu' sound in Japanese. I can understand your logic, but it does not actually work. Take the sa line for example. Add tenten and they become za ji zu ze zo. ji? Yup, it does not always work ;) tsu with tenten is actually zu (yeah, there are two zu and two ji characters; I am no expert, but I believe it is an anachronysm, like wo).
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Unread postby Blue Gunner » December 12th, 2006, 12:27 am

Elric of Grans wrote:There is no `dzu' sound in Japanese. I can understand your logic, but it does not actually work. Take the sa line for example. Add tenten and they become za ji zu ze zo. ji? Yup, it does not always work ;) tsu with tenten is actually zu (yeah, there are two zu and two ji characters; I am no expert, but I believe it is an anachronysm, like wo).


According to all the textbooks I've used, it actually becomes "dzu". And what's the second ji character? Also, listening to the Tsukihime anime, the way that they said her name seems to be "Yumitsuka", and the AonE translation was actually "Yumitsuka". Which is random, and odd.
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Unread postby Elric of Grans » December 12th, 2006, 9:42 pm

Hmm... none of mine list dzu, but it could be that they use a different romaji.

shi and chi both become ji; I am told this is an anachronysm.
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Unread postby Bahamut89 » December 20th, 2006, 1:55 pm

Well, it doesn't really matter how you romanize it, since it's pronounced dzu, or zu or whatever. I'd imagine the use of "du" is a result of the way the kana are organized. Most of the kana in Japanese are organized into groups of five with the same consonant and each of the five vowels, such as "ka ki ku ke ko," "ma mi mu me mo," etc. Of course, there are lots of random exceptions, like "sa shi su se so" and "ta chi tsu te to." However, in a certain sense, these are still considered "ta ti tu te to," they just have idiosyncratic pronunciations. This is also probably why Japanese people say "tsu" when saying the English word "two," even though they can easily pronounce hard 't' sounds.

Also, when you add the little two comma shaped radical as mentioned above, the sound becomes voiced (this is a linguistic term for using your vocal cords to pronounce a consonant). In this way, "ka ki ku ke ko" becomes "ga gi gu ge go" and "ta ti tu te to" becomes "da di du de do." Of course, since the 't' line is irregular, this actually becomes "da ji dzu de do."

Anyway, the point is that zu and du are both approximations of a sound that is a voiced tsu. I'd favor the dzu spelling, but it's not exactly common, in which case zu is slightly better because it's a bit closer than du. However, in official romanization systems, which the creators of Melty Blood probably used, it's spelled du to fit in with the pattern of the kana. 'shi' is also sometimes romanized as 'si' for the same reason, but since the sound is more common the more intuitive spelling has become preferred.

On another note, Yumidzuka is really composed of 'yumi' and 'tsuka' but consonants in Japanese tend to get voiced in compound words. The same thing is seen in words like origami, which contains the familiar 'kami' for paper.
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