Prior to Melty Blood was??? Extreme Tsukihime/KT Spoilers!!!

Let's talk about the port of the port of the port of the update of the port of the port of the update of the expansion of the game that will apparently never be awesome enough.

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Prior to Melty Blood was??? Extreme Tsukihime/KT Spoilers!!!

Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 5th, 2008, 8:53 pm

Yes yes, you've all read about it, Nasu commented that "Melty Blood was based after the events of the still unreleased Sacchin's normal/good ending". And since the man himself says it, it's probably true, BUT, there are still some plotholes that I want to sort out (the easiest way to find out is prolly to wait for the remake of Tsukihime but anyway).

First thing:
I've played through both Near-Side and Far-side in Tsukihime, at first glance it seems MB follows the events of Arcueid's good ending (in where she does not go "zZzZz" in Millenium castle after Roa is defeated, and one year after that KT takes place) After winning against Sion in the Story-mode's first block. Sion asks Shiki to act as a mediator in the negotiations with the True Ancestor (a.k.a. Arc) and after Shiki says: "Do you think she'll listen to what I say, where did you get that idea!?"Sion says: "W-Well, you... The True Ancestor... Aren't the two of you... L-Lovers?" (After that statement Shiki blushes but doesn't object, hinting that it is true that they really are). Is it just me or is there something missing here??? If it's Sacchin's ending, then why is the main male protagonist not loving the Tsukihime-route's main female protagonist???

Second thing:
In the story of Melty Blood (and ReACT) Sacchin never appears. She is only mentioned three times in the full story (I have played all 8 routes to this game, and I don't think I'm missing something. Plus, the true ending to Melty Blood is the Hologram Summer/Lord of Lies - NIGHT ON THE BLOOD LIAR route) The first time she is mentioned is when Sion says: "You should understand how I feel. Like me, you have seen a friend turn into a vampire before your eyes." Shortly after that, in the same block Shiki says: "... If your research succeds, it feels like... I could finally help her..." After that, when Shiki and Sion is searching for the vampire in the industrial district Sion has a monlogue about what happened there, "Here is where Shiki experienced a parting" (or something like that). These three comments are in fact the only things that indicates that MB doesn't follow Arc's good end, since Sacchin never is shown as a vampire in the Near-Side routes. But if this was the following events of her route, why isn't she a playble character in the original game, nor even an important non-playable character in the story??? If this was Arc's good end, that'd make more sense... since, yes, Arc doesn't appear that much in the story, but she still plays an important part in the main plot (Hologram Summer/Lord of Lies - NIGHT ON THE BLOOD LIAR). Without her materializing the Crimson Moon from a thousand years in the future to strip Zepia of his power as the Night of Wallachia Shiki'd never be able to end him off completely (In the story, Sion explains that there once was a Dead Apostle Ancestor named Zepia Eltnam Oberon, and his reality marble was "the Night of Wallachia" which is what he used to gain an imperfect immortality by appearing at random intervalls all over the world, slaughtering everything in the vicinity over a single night. Thus, since he turned himself into a reality marble, he became a non-existent being, the only thing Shiki and his Eyes of Death Perception cannot kill, because you cannot kill what didn't exist in the first place).

Third thing:
With the Release of ReACT, Sacchin finally appeared as a playable character. But if you know the game's story, her appearance could might as well been a fake created by Wallachia or W. Len. ReACT also includes something that opposes the fact that this is the followup to Sacchin's normal/good end: (you might already know who I mean, so here it comes anyway) Len. Len first appeared as a plot device dream familliar in Tsukihime (giving Shiki a naughty dream after have helped Arc kill Nrvnqsr) without a name. In KT (which follows Arc's normal/good ending) the familliar is named Len and is a major character in the KT-plot (In the end, Len makes a contract with Shiki and becomes his familliar). In Melty Blood ReACT's Arcade mode, Len is portrayed as Shiki's familliar, just like in KT, meaning that KT was prior to the events of Melty Blood, pointing out that this also connects the story to Arc's normal/good ending. Also, if this is following Sacchin's end, then why has Shiki completeky forgotten that Sacchin is still in Misaki City??? (In the "winners-talk" after beating Sacchin with Shiki, he says that the person he just faced "looked a lot like Yumizuka-san..." hinting he hasn't seen her for awhile, that also hinting that she could've died prior to Melty Blood, and as we all know, she does get killed by Shiki in the Far-Side routes). Also, in ReACT, Sion and Sacchin seems to have become good friends, but they never explained how and when they met. Adding to that, in the Hologram Summer/Lord of Lies - NIGHT ON THE BLOOD LIAR route (which is the official 'true' ending to Melty Blood) Sion leaves Misaki City for the Atlas Acardemy, to resume her studies for a cure to vampirism (But this does in fact have an explanation, sort of... After Aoko creates W. Len, the event similiar to the Night of Wallachia takes place in Misaki City once more, Sion arrives of course, with her calculations showing a high possibility that Zepia might be materialized into reality again, thus explaining why she's still in Misaki City).

These are the thoughts that came into my mind when I first heard that MB was after Sacchin's end, if none can find something I have missed or prove me wrong, then all we can do is wait for the remake of Tsukihime to come out, and get translated (since I don't know Japanese). So please post something if you see that I've missed some important parts (since I tend to to do that often sometimes).

Alternative solution:
An alternative solution to the questions I listed above could be a modified good end in the Arc route. It could have the same basics as Arc's end, but include Sacchin in it too. Arc is killed by Shiki, Arc revives herself and goes to find Shiki, Arc and Shiki team up and kills Nrvnqsr, Sacchin stops coming to school, Shiki sets out to find her, finds her and is overwhelmed by her new vampiric strength, but is saved by Arc who chases her away. The story progresses, Arc's and Shiki's relationship continues to develop into love, but at the same time, the fact that one of his classmates now is a vampire bothers him, because after seing her like that, he wants to save her. In the end, Sacchin's parent vampire Roa is killed by Shiki. Arcueid is mortally wounded like in her original route, and the epilouge starts after Shiki meets up with the now free Sacchin. But Sacchin leaves Shiki saying she can no longer live a normal life. The epilogue is the same as Arc's good end with her appearing when Shiki's walking to school, but with the final sentence: "In the end, the police never found Yumizuka Satsuki... Yes, because she has left this world, a world she can no longer return to..."

This end prolly wasn't very good but if it was like this, it'd explain the Story and Sacchin's appearance in MB.
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Unread postby Kansho » October 6th, 2008, 12:02 am

Probably, in Sacchin Normal End... she was supposed to die. But then, that was retconned in ReAct to include her as a playable character. ReAct is supposed to be some kind of spin-off/alternative tale.

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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » October 6th, 2008, 1:49 pm

Well I kind of thought since Sacchin did disappear in the Near Side sotries I thought she did turn into a Vampire after all. In any case there is the posibility that Shiki did manage to get Len in Sacchin's sotryline as well since she was supposed to be the third girl in the Near Side storyline. So with that in mind it would make sense on why Shiki would have Len and would kind of have some kind of thing with Arc as well.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » October 10th, 2008, 8:50 pm

MB is supposed to be a continuation to Sacchin's Normal End, so it could be that in that end Sacchin died and Shiki ended up with Arc. However, as I read in another forum, while it is heavily implied, is never explicitly stated that Shiki and Arc are a couple (Sion says so, and while Shiki doesn't denies it, he neithers affirms it), nor that Satsuki died. (In ReACT arcade she seems to be alive, but I think that mode isn't exactly a continuation of MB story mode).
Anyways, it could be that in Satsuki's Normal End she died, and in the Good End she survived but as a vampire, and arcade mode follows that end (unless Nasu said that it also follow normal end, which I don't know if happened). And as for Len, I guess after Sacchin route also happened something like KT and Len became Shiki's familiar.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 11th, 2008, 7:19 am

Mazyrian wrote:MB is supposed to be a continuation to Sacchin's Normal End, so it could be that in that end Sacchin died and Shiki ended up with Arc. However, as I read in another forum, while it is heavily implied, is never explicitly stated that Shiki and Arc are a couple (Sion says so, and while Shiki doesn't denies it, he neithers affirms it), nor that Satsuki died. (In ReACT arcade she seems to be alive, but I think that mode isn't exactly a continuation of MB story mode).
Anyways, it could be that in Satsuki's Normal End she died, and in the Good End she survived but as a vampire, and arcade mode follows that end (unless Nasu said that it also follow normal end, which I don't know if happened). And as for Len, I guess after Sacchin route also happened something like KT and Len became Shiki's familiar.


The ReACT Arcade story follows MB's original story, since Aoko creates White Len, with the remains of Zepia (Wallachia), which gives her the same powers as both him and Len (the ability to control rumors and dreams, but unlike Wallachia, who transforms into peoples nightmares, White Len gives them form instead).

Also I think normal and good is the same i terms of endings (if they don't descide to include three endings for every character in the remake) there are two types of endings, the normal/good ending and the true ending.

If so, Sacchin probably survived in her normal/good end, but left Shiki and Arc and dissapeared somewhere, until Sion finds her in the MB's story.
Still, I find it wierd that Sacchin (which was supposed to be the main heroine of her route) doesn't appear in the story-mode, apart from being mentioned once or twice. Even if she dissapears, then maybe this was her great comeback... but no.

But as I said earlier, if Nasu says so, then it's probably true^^
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » October 11th, 2008, 2:22 pm

NanatsuYa wrote:Also I think normal and good is the same i terms of endings (if they don't descide to include three endings for every character in the remake) there are two types of endings, the normal/good ending and the true ending.

If so, Sacchin probably survived in her normal/good end, but left Shiki and Arc and dissapeared somewhere, until Sion finds her in the MB's story.
Still, I find it wierd that Sacchin (which was supposed to be the main heroine of her route) doesn't appear in the story-mode, apart from being mentioned once or twice. Even if she dissapears, then maybe this was her great comeback... but no.

But as I said earlier, if Nasu says so, then it's probably true^^


Nasu better not lie...or else he'll face the rage of all the Sacchin fans around the globe.

The "Sacchin as the third near-side girl" theory is quote possible though, because Shiki never met Sacchin after that time when they went home from school together on the near-side routes...

TM probably left some of Sacchin's near-side route options out when they first released Tsukihime.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 11th, 2008, 2:48 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:Nasu better not lie...or else he'll face the rage of all the Sacchin fans around the globe.


Now THAT is a scary thought... :P
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » October 11th, 2008, 3:07 pm

Well if you look at it this way MeltyBlood is Sacchin's route and Kagetsu Tohya is actually Arc's good ending. Although as for Len already being there that's where the whole thing hits a snag. Although there is the slight possibility that if that happened then that would mean that Sacchin is a Naer Side Route, and Shiki did managed to "kill" Arc as well. Which would have Len being there making total sense now. Although the power that Arc has is a different story unless soemthing completely different happened bettwen Arc and Shiki of course.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 11th, 2008, 5:32 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote: Although the power that Arc has is a different story unless soemthing completely different happened bettwen Arc and Shiki of course.


If Mb is set one year after TH then Arc should have regained most of her power right? Even if Shiki 'killed' her, she said in TH that she could regain a considarable ammount of power in just two days (although that is interrupted by Nrvnqsr in TH).
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » October 12th, 2008, 5:28 pm

Huh you know I never really though about it that way until now. I guess Ihave to replay her storyline to do a bit of a refresher on that then.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 12th, 2008, 9:03 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Huh you know I never really though about it that way until now. I guess Ihave to replay her storyline to do a bit of a refresher on that then.


At least that is what I recall (she said something like "If I sleep two more days I should be able to regain the most of my powers").
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Unread postby Mazyrian » October 14th, 2008, 1:10 pm

NanatsuYa wrote:The ReACT Arcade story follows MB's original story, since Aoko creates White Len, with the remains of Zepia (Wallachia), which gives her the same powers as both him and Len (the ability to control rumors and dreams, but unlike Wallachia, who transforms into peoples nightmares, White Len gives them form instead).

Also I think normal and good is the same i terms of endings (if they don't descide to include three endings for every character in the remake) there are two types of endings, the normal/good ending and the true ending.

If so, Sacchin probably survived in her normal/good end, but left Shiki and Arc and dissapeared somewhere, until Sion finds her in the MB's story.
Still, I find it wierd that Sacchin (which was supposed to be the main heroine of her route) doesn't appear in the story-mode, apart from being mentioned once or twice. Even if she dissapears, then maybe this was her great comeback... but no.

But as I said earlier, if Nasu says so, then it's probably true^^


I think that is like Akiha's route, with True Ending and Normal Ending; so MB follows the Normal one, which maybe isn't as good (eg, Satsuki dies). And Arcade could follow some alternate story mode which happens after True Ending, in which Satsuki survives.
Then again, this is all an educated guess
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