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Unread postby Break » August 7th, 2008, 10:38 am

I've started up a wiki page on EditThis for Windom here: http://www.editthis.info/wiki/Bootfighter_Guide

It's viewable to all, but in order to edit it, you'll need an account. It doesn't take long to register - as I recall, there isn't even an e-mail confirmation involved.

It originally started out as notes for my own benefit, but I quickly came to terms with how awesome a compilation of tactics would be. Thus, I slapped it on a wiki page, reformatted it as appropriate, and released it to the masses.

There was only so much I could do with it in the short time I was writing it, so, basically, the intro, Cymbidium, and XP SP3 sections are anywhere near complete as far as my input goes, though I've started on some like Iris and BlackComb (who needs to be smacked with the nerfbat so hard). If this gets large enough, I can definitely register a Wikispace for the guide and Bootfighter coverage in general if we need multiple pages (most likely for organization's sake).

If you see a mistake that involves some degree of subjectivity and nonobviousness (like a rating or strategy working), please, discuss it first (either in this topic or on the page's discussion tab) and don't just dive in to edit. Additions, however, are welcome, though extended input should be prefaced with your username so I know who's responsible for what. :3 Don't forget to read the introduction, as well.

With that said, ideas? Thoughts? Edits? Suggestions?
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Unread postby ryujin » August 7th, 2008, 11:07 am

Bootfighter Guide wrote:Windom 2K/2000

KD-06 Asteroid-0 Windom2K - "2000," "2000 vanilla," or "2K" for short.


-May I suggest "Asteroid?" As the other mech is also "2000" but I call it SP1

Bootfighter Guide wrote:Tiers

Based on 1v1.

These will probably be subject to a ton of debate....

* God - BlackComb

* Top - XP SP3

* Upper - BlackSelena, Cymbidium, 2000 SP1, Anthurium

* Mid - XP, XP-B, Vista, Iris (last two are in Upper-Mid limbo)

* Low - Millenium, 2000 vanilla

* Bottom - Millenium-R, MS98


-Not to be rude but, is this really necessary? I mean, it depends on many factors such as (piloting skills, strategy, etc.)

An MS-98 can PWN a Black Comb using his grenades and wits.

Just expressing my opinion though... :wink:





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Unread postby Break » August 7th, 2008, 11:41 am

As much as I would love to use an alternate name for 2000, 2000 SP1 also has Asteroid in its name, so there's that bit of ambiguity.

As for the tier issue, I'll try to explain, but it's going to be a bit lengthy.

The tier list isn't necessary, per se, and does not aim to be absolute; it's not saying that X will always beat Y no matter what. All it says is that, taking the players' skill out of the equation (or making the players of equal skill, or with all players at the absolute highest level of play for that mech; it works out any of those ways), and given the current knowledge about the mechs, X will generally beat Y. There's no question that a great MS98 player will beat an average BlackComb one - what the tier list is saying is that BlackComb has more advantages and fewer weaknesses than MS98. Because of that, the tier list isn't a matter of opinion - it aims for objectivity. The fact that YSK has had to tweak the mechs with most updates, as well as the fact that no asymmetric game can be perfectly balanced, is pretty much grounds for saying that some mechs can be objectively better than others.

Of course, since I just released this guide, the tier list merely reflects what the three writers believe are best, given what we know about the game. But player skill, by far, remains the largest variable in play, and the tiers do nothing to say that that isn't the case.

I hope that explains the mindset behind it. If there are any more concerns about the tier list, I'd rather that it be directed to PMs, as it is a hot-button subject for some players. If there is enough disagreement, I'll remove it, though having the ratings there while keeping tier lists off would be pretty silly.
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Re: Asteroid

Unread postby ryujin » August 7th, 2008, 2:45 pm

ryujin wrote:May I suggest "Asteroid?" As the other mech is also "2000" but I call it SP1


-Sorry about that, my bad, it slipped my mind that the other one was asteroid as well because I kept calling it SP1. :o

It's really confusing because they are both KD-06, Asteroid, and 2k & 2000 pretty much means the same thing.

I guess I'll call them "SP1" and "2K" respectively. I guess people do make mistakes. :)



About the tier issue,
Of course, since I just released this guide, the tier list merely reflects what the three writers know, given what we know about the game

I guess 3 heads are better than 1 :lol: .





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Unread postby Break » August 7th, 2008, 8:39 pm

Small updates here and there. Feedback, additions and discussion would be most appreciated.
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Unread postby Agent556 » August 8th, 2008, 1:51 am

ack i tl;dr'd a bit there. ended up going straight to edit and didnt read the part about discuss here :oops:

SP-3 has always fired only 4 funnels (drones as you wish to call them) since before, and i put a little bit more emphasis on the weaknesses of blackcomb. i found the part about having to find the enemy off guard a little off...

also, blackcomb's inability to block anything solid prevents it from avoiding damage when the shot is fired just right. I dont see blackcomb as the invincible mech that the wiki made it out to be...

And its superlaser...FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, YSK, FIX THIS MECH.


uhh >_> but i left that in there because i read this post in the middle of all of that.


I added info for type-b, feel free to complete it if theres anything glaring missing.
I'll try adding some information for the other units later
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Unread postby RedZephyr » August 8th, 2008, 2:01 am

I'll resort to PM's when it gets more... lively

Anyways I think the "God Tier" should be taken out seeing as how the middle tier isn't really in the middle admist the six tiers 0.o

I also think the 2k should be swapped with the Type-B in my opinion. The Type-B's armament consists of pure live ammunition and so it has a pretty huge disadvantage when fighting against any mech equipped with a beam weapon (11 out of the 14 mechs are equipped with a beam rifle of sorts).
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Unread postby Break » August 8th, 2008, 2:19 am

The XP-B info seems solid, and I'm convinced that the edits made in the other sections are indeed for the better. Danke. :3

I'll comb through it again for minor errors, as well as to give extended coverage on Anthurium. She's been a favorite of mine lately due to the increased tracking of the Buster Launcher. I'll also include "funnel" as a nickname for the all-rangers, as it's one I've heard often enough to warrant mentioning.

It's true that missiles generally lose out to lasers in this game, but I'm not entirely sure that this fact really screws over the XP-B. It's certainly a good argument as for why it won't rank higher, sure, but to be bumped down in favor of 2K? That, I'm not so sure about.

I should explain my experiences with BlackComb, though...

My usual group has two players that can use BlackComb with a reasonable degree of proficiency, and both play defensively. Keep-away games are common, laser reflections pretty much take off half of the options for most mechs since they both block well, and the accuracy and width of the high-intensity laser makes it hard to approach. It's hard to beat a mech if you can't somehow take advantage of its weaknesses - I've always found it difficult to approach a good BlackComb, as even most openers are pretty terrible against it. The original writers unanimously concluded that BlackComb was borked - even the players who used it.

True story, though: I did beat a decent XP SP3 player without losing a life, and with 1000 health left, and all of that damage was basically done in the last moments of the fight. Anecdotal, yes, but that says something for how many options a BlackComb can shut down.

SMALL EDIT: I had originally intended for the pros and cons to be a quick rundown of the mech's strengths and weaknesses, with extended coverage right afterwards. Putting all of the coverage into pros and cons is fine if the input is pretty short, but if it becomes sizable, I'd prefer it if the extended coverage below the quick pros and cons format be used. Thanks for the help!

EDIT TWO: Anthurium and BlackComb coverage added. Iris and Vista coverage to follow.
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Unread postby Break » August 9th, 2008, 1:22 am

Additional 2000 SP1 coverage is up. Everything's coming along nicely, though more contributors would be splendid.
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Unread postby Denning » August 9th, 2008, 9:21 am

Agent556 wrote:I dont see blackcomb as the invincible mech that the wiki made it out to be...


Invincible? No. But the argument for it being the best frame in the game comes from its ability to control the field better than anything else out there.

Consider that most of the cast relies on laser attacks. Those that don't, for the most part, are the ones with the most glaring faults (XP-B and the grenadiers). Sure, SP-1 and Anthurium are great frames with viable non-laser attacks, but that limits your options significantly and breeds predictability.

Regarding its super, it ranks as one of the highest in both power and speed of execution, the angle that it spreads will catch most people moving laterally and tracks vertically very well. It's comparable to Vista's at most ranges, but doesn't have the potential to lose the target at longer ranges due to roaming.

Don't get me wrong, it's entirely beatable, but no one else in the cast has advantages quite as significant or can cover flaws quite so well as BlackComb can. It's in desperate need of balancing along with SP-3 and the grenade family.
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Unread postby Break » August 9th, 2008, 9:57 am

An increase in throw speed for grenades would do so much for the grenadiers. A better Crazy Ball would be awesome, too.

I'll be working on Iris next, then probably the Selena and Vista. Past that is about the limit of my experience, and I'll have to either playtest or leave it to everyone else to fill in the blanks.
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Unread postby RedZephyr » August 9th, 2008, 5:18 pm

Well from my experiences, the SP3 isn't much of a threat in 1v1 battles than in FFA and Teams where a distraction can lead to half your health sliced away
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Unread postby Break » August 10th, 2008, 12:46 am

Small request: Would it be possible for someone to fill in all of the blank Stats and Weapons blocks for those mechs that don't have one, or have an incomplete one? Them ain thing that's stopping me is not having a list of lockon ranges.

As for the XP SP3, I disagree. It's basically Cymbidium on steroids: you trade off some melee speed and health for an overall better melee combo, a rifle, a better superlaser, and drones. That last bit is important, as it covers something that the Cymbidium lacks - something that acts as an effective opener for melee attacks.

XP SP3 isn't as great in the other modes because its main form of damage is quite involved - simply put, it's very vulnerable to other attacks while it's swinging that sword around, and it's all too easy to shoot it in the back when bringing the pain. However, the drones save it from obscurity yet again, as they make for excellent support for an opponent that's having trouble pinning an enemy down.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » August 10th, 2008, 1:23 am

Break: If someone else hasn't posted since your last post, it might be a good idea to edit your last post rather than making a new one.
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Unread postby GReeN Reaper » August 10th, 2008, 4:31 pm

* God - BlackComb

It looks like God's ass is colored gold. :lol: <- (Black Combers please don't be offended :wink: )


Break wrote:An increase in throw speed for grenades would do so much for the grenadiers.

Yes, I like that. :D

By teh way, another weakness of God is teh slow recharging of his energy gauge. :P
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Unread postby Gelmax » August 10th, 2008, 8:23 pm

Tier lists are usually a bad idea without a big, active, and competent community involved in plenty of discussion about the game. We don't have ANY of that here. The BlackComb is HARDLY the unstoppable beast you're making it out to be, though. It's pretty much made for anti-beam combat, true, most mechs have at least one solid projectile to fall back on, and the few that don't (such as the BlackSelena) are generally high-spec mechs with high melee ability anyway, not to mention that the BlackComb only reflects beams when it's actively blocking. Besides, it doesn't quite have the generator power necessary to run all its weapons - keep it firing and it'll run low on energy in no time, during which you can close in. The drones aren't much of a threat (especially with the new lock-on alert system that points out incoming projectiles), and if you can bait it into missing with the high-intensity laser, it's wide-open. Meanwhile, either option drains half its energy, meaning it's got to rely on its beam rifle for a little while.

And, of course, if playing defensively with ranged weapons were as effective as you claim, you wouldn't be ranking the XP SP-3 (whose effective range is only slightly longer than the Millenium's) as #2 while placing the other XPs in the "low" tier (yes, I know you call that tier the "Mid" tier, but it really isn't. It's just that with the BlackComb, charging straight in without analyzing your enemy isn't really advisable no matter how much terrain advantage you think you have.

Besides, tier lists don't take into account different numbers of lives, which are in there for the sole purpose of balancing the mechs relative to each other, and I doubt they ever will.
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Unread postby Break » August 10th, 2008, 10:38 pm

Edited the BlackComb section slightly to trim off the exaggerative references.

Gelmax wrote:Tier lists are usually a bad idea without a big, active, and competent community involved in plenty of discussion about the game. We don't have ANY of that here.


Well, we're trying to promote that sort of discussion and interest here. It's not working all that well, but we're getting somewhere.

The BlackComb is HARDLY the unstoppable beast you're making it out to be, though. It's pretty much made for anti-beam combat, true, most mechs have at least one solid projectile to fall back on,


First of all, my take on the matter is similar to that of Denning's above. Is it unstoppable? No, and any mentions of that on my part were probably exaggerations. Is it effective? Yes, very much so, because of its ability to basically negate its only major weakness with a particular style of play, because it's tough to approach.

Such "solid" projectiles are either somewhat situational (Anthurium and 2000 SP1, namely with the fact that these weapons can't be used on the go and are pretty much limited to counters), or on mechs with other problems anyway (pretty much everything else).

...and the few that don't (such as the BlackSelena) are generally high-spec mechs with high melee ability anyway, not to mention that the BlackComb only reflects beams when it's actively blocking.


Closing to utilize that melee is the hard part, actually. The superlaser tracks better than it should, and is faster than most weapons of it's caliber. It's also wide, so moving laterally doesn't work all that well, and moving vertically is slow. It's overall less difficult to catch people with it for those who wait, as there's a fair amount of room for error with it.

That, and the reflection bit is not completely true. BlackComb has a 20% chance to reflect beams passively, and actively reflects during its superlaser.

Besides, it doesn't quite have the generator power necessary to run all its weapons - keep it firing and it'll run low on energy in no time, during which you can close in.


Reflecting refills engine and weapon energy if it needs it. BlackComb players tend to be on the defensive to catch projectiles thrown at it, as well as wait it out for the right moment to strike. Weapon energy usually isn't a problem because of this.

The drones aren't much of a threat (especially with the new lock-on alert system that points out incoming projectiles), and if you can bait it into missing with the high-intensity laser, it's wide-open. Meanwhile, either option drains half its energy, meaning it's got to rely on its beam rifle for a little while.


The drones do what they need to, though - they get the enemy out into the open, and even act as a slight melee deterrent for those who insist on using long combos while they're flying out and about. Faking out does work if you can pull it off, but it is a dangerous option, due to the amount of factors going for the weapon's accuracy, as well as the fact that you can't hit it with laser weapons to counter. It's relatively easy to get hit on the evasion if you screw up due to the tracking, speed, and width.

And, of course, if playing defensively with ranged weapons were as effective as you claim, you wouldn't be ranking the XP SP-3 (whose effective range is only slightly longer than the Millenium's) as #2 while placing the other XPs in the "low" tier (yes, I know you call that tier the "Mid" tier, but it really isn't. It's just that with the BlackComb, charging straight in without analyzing your enemy isn't really advisable no matter how much terrain advantage you think you have.


Defensive play simply happens to work out for BlackComb, and to a more limited extent, Anthurium and XP-B. It's just that with those last two, their defensive options act more as a delaying game than anything. Everybody else but Iris basically doesn't benefit much from staying defensive. XP SP3 just happens to have a very good option for swinging things in its favor, as the lockdown time its drones cause works very well in allowing it to approach.


Besides, tier lists don't take into account different numbers of lives, which are in there for the sole purpose of balancing the mechs relative to each other, and I doubt they ever will.


Um.....why wouldn't they? Lives and such are very much a quality of the mechs, and so are considered. It's just that they alone generally aren't enough to swing listings.

EDIT: Iris portion done, still need to cover the Selena and Vista. Further additions are appreciated, especially for those who can finish up the stat and weapon blocks for those sections that still lack them. Help is also requested for the XP, 2000 vanilla, MS98, Mill, and Mill-R sections. Keep the discussions and edits coming, because it's all working out!
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Unread postby priere » August 12th, 2008, 10:55 am

The "blank list" has been loaded with basic information.

I personally suggest the wiki to be more objective than subjective. (you know, reduce the word "I", "favorite", etc)

Oh and I rearrange the list of frames (mechas) according to their "appearance" ingame.


P.S. I am planning to add each weapon's damage. I've tried it on XP's weapons but I still find it 'unsettling' for some reason. Any better idea where to place the weapons' damage?
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Unread postby Break » August 12th, 2008, 5:32 pm

Many thanks. :3

The first person references are remnants of the earlier phases of the guide, where I was taking it down merely for my own benefit and maybe that of a couple of others. I plan to comb through it eventually to make it completely in third-person.

As for mech weapon damage, my main problem with that is that it changes so often - specifically, with almost every patch - and is much harder to track. The values can become obsolete quickly. I'd settle on merely explaining what the mechs' best options are.

The second problem is clutter, as the guide is a bit dense as is. However, if you can provide the weapon damage values and keep them updated, I'd be happy to create a second page for it, then link it over from the main guide.
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Unread postby Agent556 » August 17th, 2008, 9:50 am

few fixes here and there, just in case somebody saw something different and was wondering....
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