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Unread postby D4rks0ul » August 17th, 2008, 10:05 am

Very nice work, i discovered it yesterday via Google ;)
It helped a lot, Thanks and great work (to u all) ! :D

Mfg DS
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Unread postby Break » August 18th, 2008, 5:08 pm

No problem at all. :3

I'm trying to get someone else's input for the Selena section, so everything else is fair game. I've sprinkled ratings, pros, and cons for some of the other mechs, but those are likely to change after some discussion.
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Unread postby Gelmax » August 20th, 2008, 2:25 am

Millenium: The Crazy Ball's main use appears to be manipulating the AI's movements - it seems to have a pretty terrible chance of actually doing damage, but the AI will tend to avoid entering the area of effect (or flee if it's already in it) and that can be exploited. I suppose human players would typically want to stay out of it too, but it's not reliable since they don't really mind flying through it. You DO take damage from your own grenades' explosions, and if you lob a handful of grenades at point-blank range, odds are the enemy's not the only one getting major damage. Also, grenades are rather inaccurate, though it's not too obvious when you're throwing a whole spread at once.

MS-98: Weaker than the Millenium. Only notable difference is that the ability to toss single grenades at a decent rate is something the Millenium doesn't have...but they're so ridiculously inaccurate that it's even worse than the Crazy Ball. Seriously, that needs to be corrected in a later version, grenades are easy enough to dodge even if you don't factor in the chance of them being thrown thirty degrees away from where the enemy is.

Iris: Much like the Crazy Ball, the Magic Circle's beamspam seems to have terrible accuracy against ANY opponent, as the blue lasers hardly ever hit enemy mechs, even those in its terribly limited range; the only reason it's effective at all is because it occasionally fires off a green laser aimed directly at the enemy and with much longer range, which can hurt pretty bad if the rest of the beamspam didn't scare you off. The crystals are overall much more effective, as they can hit the enemy at any time mostly independently of what you're doing.

Anthurium: Her "melee" cannon has a lot of utility even at close range; one of the variations fires a pink beam that is essentially a slower, extremely-short-range version of the quick laser, complete with the same stunning properties; it's hard to hit with, but it immobilizes the enemy just long enough for you to fire the superlaser. The "down" variation, where the mech slides forward while firing and then rolls, seems to be the most effective move in melee range, as it comes out fast and keeps you moving.
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Unread postby Wiser Guy » August 20th, 2008, 11:53 pm

As you may have seen here, I've been poking around in this game and I've found some interesting values to compare the mechs by. There is numerical values for the energy and weapon gauges, and here are the maximums for each of the mechs.

Windom XP Weapon Gauge - 1000
Windom XP Energy Gauge - 1200

Vista Weapon Gauge - 1000
Vista Energy Gauge - 1400

Millenium/R Weapon Gauge - 1000
Millenium/R Energy Gauge - 1000

MS-98 Weapon Gauge - 800
MS-98 Energy Gauge - 900

Sp1 Weapon Gauge - 1000
Sp1 Energy Gauge - 1700

BlackComb Weapon Gauge - 1600
BlackComb Energy Gauge - 1300

Type-B Weapon Gauge - 1300
Type-B Energy Gauge - 1000

Iris Weapon Gauge - 1500
Iris Energy Gauge - 1600

BlackSelena Weapon Gauge - 1500
BlackSelena Energy Gauge - 1100

2k Weapon Gauge - 900
2k Energy Gauge - 1400

Cymbidium Weapon Gauge - 1100
Cymbidium Energy Gauge - 1100

Anthur Weapon Gauge - 2000
Anthur Energy Gauge - 1600

Sp3 Weapon Gauge - 800
Sp3 Energy Gauge - 1100

From what I can tell, the mechs consume and replenish the energy gauge at the same rate, and the weapon gauge seems have the same replenishment rate between the mechs as well. To put this into perspective, though, here's some of the weapon energy consumption values for the first weapon of every mech.

200 Energy for Weapon 1:
Windom XP, Vista, Sp1, Iris, BlackSelena, 2k, Anthur, Sp3

40 Energy per bullet for weapon 1:
Millenium, MS-98

BlackComb uses 150 Energy per beam for Weapon 1
Type-B, Cymbidium uses 250 Energy for Weapon 1
Millenium-R uses 180 Energy for Weapon 1

I'm not going to cover the other weapons though...

Also, I hope this helps in the comparisons. Specifically, the comparison between the MS-98 and the Millenium. Now the Millenium does more damage than the MS-98, has a more useful Weapon 4, AND it is now proven that the Millenium can shoot for longer and and fly higher than its pathetic counterpart. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
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Unread postby Break » August 21st, 2008, 12:53 am

Excellent stuff, Gelmax and Wiser.

Gelmax: You do have a point with the random distribution of grenade throws, but evne with that, it's the closest thing the grenadiers have to a reliable weapon.

Except Mill-R. Two random grenades? Seriously? That's a gamble. I'm seriously not seeing why the distribution of grenades has to be random, though - or, for that matter, why the throwing times are as long as they are.

As for Iris, yes, the magic circle does have terrible range, but the accuracy is only a factor for lower charges. With higher amounts of gauge poured into it, the circle is firing off so many beams that it really doesn't matter how accurate they are, as chances are that they're going to hit if they're in range. Keeping them in range is the hard part, though....

The bit about the crystals has since been added, as I've finally seen how effective five bars worth of charge with them is. :3

As for Anthurium, I am still not seeing the use of the electric beam. It's way too slow and easy to evade even at the proper range - a range one shouldn't even be in, really. The situation in which you can use it - in which the opponent is moving slowly, within its short range, and is not attacking you - just doesn't come up very often. However, the slide shot is quite fun to use and theoretically effective, though I've seen the shots actually sail over still opponents that are locked on. I'm not sure if anybody else has experienced it.

Wiser Guy: We had some great matches, by the way. :3

The values are definitely going to come in handy, as those sorts of values are pretty difficult to compare through observation. If it won't add to the clutter too much, they should probably be added to the stat blocks of their respective mechs, as they are a good measure of how well a mach can sustain its offense and mobility. I'm starting to wonder how you're able to access these values, actually, as it's really useful stuff.
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Unread postby Wiser Guy » August 21st, 2008, 3:26 am

Break wrote:We had some great matches, by the way. :3

I'll be looking forward to the next one, alright?

Break wrote:The values are definitely going to come in handy, as those sorts of values are pretty difficult to compare through observation.

Well, it's better than creating a whole new system of values based on videos of the mechs flying up as long as they can in order to measure the energy gauge in seconds...And I don't even want to know how the weapon gauge would be measured. When I was figuring out how much energy for each of the weapon 1s', I had to:

1) Figure out where the weapon gauge value was.
2) Ensure the weapon gauge is full.
3) Make the mech jump in the air, to reduce the weapon gauge recovery.
4) Fire the weapon.
5) Immediately pause.
6) Check how much weapon gauge is left.
7) Think about the value, since the weapon gauge recovery would indicate the cost of the attack is lower than it should be. (I don't have bullet-time reflexes on the pause)
8) Repeat 2-7 until I found a satisfactory answer.

Don't worry, though. Those weapon 1 costs have been given my seal of approval, as even though I didn't get the exact number from the game, I am confident in the accuracy of the observations.

Break wrote:If it won't add to the clutter too much, they should probably be added to the stat blocks of their respective mechs, as they are a good measure of how well a mach can sustain its offense and mobility.

On it.
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Unread postby GReeN Reaper » August 21st, 2008, 9:11 am

Wiser Guy wrote:AND it is now proven that the Millenium can shoot for longer and and fly higher than its pathetic counterpart. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

that hurts you know :( :?
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Unread postby jezer0 » August 23rd, 2008, 3:34 am

It is true that the Millenium has better overall stats than the MS-98, well except for two things:
1. MS-98 has 1 life more than the Millenium, thus will technically stay alive longer.
2. MS-98 throws more grenades than the Millenium when charged, thus it kills (opponent and itself) faster.

that hurts you know :( :?

Do not despair, for that lack of ability will give us MORE BRAGGING RIGHTS when we OWN them :lol:

Edit:
So millenium also throws the same number of grenades when charged
Last edited by jezer0 on August 23rd, 2008, 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grenade and grenades

Unread postby ryujin » August 23rd, 2008, 7:55 am

jezer0 wrote:2. MS-98 throws more grenades than the Millenium when charged, thus it kills (opponent and itself) faster.

I confirmed it, the Millenium also throws 25 grenades when charged (5 EX Gauges.) [Too bad Millenium's 25 grenades are not pissed off :x as MS-98's] :o

I'd say that the MS-98's another advantage would be his his Weapon 3: Grenade (1 grenade) because of its estimated 1 to 1.75 sec. cooldown -- it is quite spammable in a way.
We all know that the grenades are random but its up to the pilot on how he will use the randomness of the grenade. :D


GReeN Reaper wrote:that hurts you know :( :?

Don't worry, I think your grenades are the ones that hurt most :)

Three cheers for MS-98!!! :P :P :P
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Re: Grenade and grenades

Unread postby Wiser Guy » August 25th, 2008, 4:32 pm

ryujin wrote:Don't worry, I think your grenades are the ones that hurt most :)
A Millenium's grenade will do 50 more damage than a MS-98's grenade. Unless you're talking about the damage to pride, it's all in your head, dude.
ryujin wrote:Three cheers for MS-98!!! :P :P :P
Denial at its finest.

Seriously, though, all this MS-98 talk is off topic...
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The controversial MS-98

Unread postby ryujin » August 25th, 2008, 6:06 pm

ryujin wrote:Don't worry, I think your grenades are the ones that hurt most :)

-not literal

Wiser Guy wrote:A Millenium's grenade will do 50 more damage than a MS-98's grenade.

Says who? :o

I actually tested it myself after I read your comment... :wink:

First, the conditions:
*The target is not flying, not moving, not shielding.
*The target is at point blank range (around 13.46m)
*The attack is (5) grenades.
*Both mechs are at full health.
*No EX Gauges were used.

The results...

For the MS-98...

MS-98's attack: to Millenium:
Millenium's HP before: 1300
Millenium's HP after: 550
Total damage inflicted: 1300 - 550 = 750

MS-98's damage to itself (due to point blank range):
MS-98's HP before: 1100
Ms-98's HP after: 500
Total damage received: 1100 - 500 = 600

Now, the Millenium...

Millenium's attack to MS-98:
MS-98's HP before: 1100
Ms-98's HP after: 350
Total damage inflicted: 1100 - 350 = 750

Millenium's damage to itself (due to point blank range):
Millenium's HP before: 1300
Millenium's HP after: 700
Total damage received: 1300 - 700 = 600

As you can see... both mechs inflict 750 damage to the target, and 600 damage to itself.

And about your answer...
Wiser Guy wrote:A Millenium's grenade will do 50 more damage than a MS-98's grenade.

I'll let you answer yourself... :o
Wiser Guy wrote:it's all in your head, dude.


Well, if you're not satisfied with the results, I'll gladly make a video of the testing just for you. :D



Wiser Guy wrote:
ryujin wrote:Three cheers for MS-98!!! :P :P :P

Denial at its finest.

There's no doubt that you're an MS-98 hater, I won't argue with that. It looks like you're not one of the three. As the three are: me, jezer0, and GReeN Reaper.
We are proud MS-98 users, because of the fact that even if its the most "pathetic" mech in bootfighter, we can still overcome the obstacles in our way. :)

Wiser Guy wrote:Seriously, though, all this MS-98 talk is off topic...

Since MS-98 is a mech in bootfighter, and this topic is about Bootfighter wiki page, I don't think it's off topic at all.

PS: Let's be friends, bootfighter is not just a game about skills, knowledge, etc. it is also about camaraderie. Do not hate people who loves the mech you hate, and please do not release your hatred about MS-98 in the forum (it looks bias) -- release it in the game instead. :D


I come in peace -- ryujin
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Unread postby mitsuki » August 26th, 2008, 6:51 am

w-w..wow... just wow :shock:

Edit: I didn't know that the grenades were that powerful at point blank range.
Last edited by mitsuki on August 26th, 2008, 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Break » August 26th, 2008, 6:58 am

mitsuki wrote:w-w..wow... just wow :shock:


I have no idea what you'd be awestruck about, but alright. >_>

After having a few games with Agent and Wiser Guy, I'm probably going to have to correct some bits, specifically as far as 2000 SP1 and XP SP3 goes. Witnessing defensive styles for the former and a couple of shortcomings for the latter means I'll have to revise their respective sections somewhat.

Of course, I still need to finish the Selena section. =(
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gomen nasai

Unread postby mitsuki » August 26th, 2008, 7:10 am

Break wrote:
mitsuki wrote:w-w..wow... just wow :shock:


I have no idea what you'd be awestruck about, but alright. >_>

sorry about that, I forgot to type the reason, I was just re-editing it and then you quickly replied :o
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Re: The controversial MS-98

Unread postby priere » August 26th, 2008, 12:55 pm

ryujin wrote:
ryujin wrote:Don't worry, I think your grenades are the ones that hurt most :)

-not literal
....


I just wanted to affirm my position that this is true. At first I though Mil's grenade is stronger but after several testing, it's true that both mech deal 750 damage to enemy and 600 damage to self for 5 point blank grenade. (I wonder when it was changed, or it's just me?) My personal favor shifted to MS-98 thanks to this.

Trivia : Full charged grenade both from 98 and Mil can one-shot (and jibaku) even full healthed BlackSelena. Cym really hates this don't you think?

Theorycraft : 4 charged grenade should one-shot Selena and 3 charged is enough for most.


EDIT :

As for Selena, I personally think it's built for close range quarter (this includes melee).

- Beam Rifle
Hit for 105, placed second after Anth.

- Sway Shot
Sway shot will be shot from behind or side if used at melee range and especially useful against turtling enemy.
Both Sway shot and Shield smash revert Selena's "beam saber mode" to "beam rifle mode" (and I prefer to call it trickster rather than jack of all trade thanks to this mind game quality).
Each shot hit for 75.
Can be used for Sway Shot - Beam Rifle combo though this's kinda risky as Selena will be vulnerable during landing after using this method.
Can be used for Sway Shot - HIL combo.
Can be used after melee combo.
Low cooldown.
Don't spam it, the opponent will learn to adjust to it.

- Shield Smash
Shield smash really is useful to be used after "Emergency Cancel" especially against SP3's-lotsa-chainsaw-like-hit-combo. It, for some reason always work for me if it connects.
Shield smash's beam rifle hit for 75 but breaking enemy's melee combo using it? Priceless... XD
Low cooldown.
Barely usable at any other situation.

- High intensity laser
Not a good opening move, use it after opponent's "super attack" missed or as combo material.
Low energy usage for a "super attack".

- Melee
Before 1.029, I always consider Selena's melee is a meh. Making it a close range quarter mech which lack melee ability. Selena's new melee is a really kickass-looking sequence and placed as second strongest-non-combo-canceled-melee. Really neat considering Selena has Sway shot and shield smash to combo it after or resulting to further mindgame.


Its kinda biased don't you think? xD
Last edited by priere on August 26th, 2008, 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Don't mess with the Grenadiers

Unread postby ryujin » August 26th, 2008, 2:08 pm

After I post this, some of you may not look at the Grenadiers the same way again.

Tested the (5) Grenades at different EX Gauges (with the previous conditions)... here are the quick results:
I'll also be listing the names of the mechs and their respective lives under what EX Gauge they can be one-hit killed.

1 EX Gauge - 5 Grenades. Does 750 damage to the target. 600 damage to self (listed the 1 EX Gauge for formality / comparison purposes)

2 EX Gauges - 10 Grenades. Does 1,500 damage to the target. 1,200 damage to self.
1,500 HP - Iris (exact) :o
1,300 HP - Mil / Mil-R, SP1
1,250 HP - 2k
1,100 HP - 98

3 EX Gauges - 15 Grenades. Does 2,250 damage to the target. 1,800 damage to self.
2,250 HP - Anthie (exact) :o
2,200 HP - Comb
1,900 HP - Vista
1,850 HP - Cymbie
1,700 HP - XP, SP3
1,600 HP - XP-B

4 EX Gauges - 20 Grenades. Does 3,000 damage to the target. 2,400 damage to self.
2,400 HP - Selena

5 EX Gauges - 25 Grenades. Does 3,750 damage to the target. 3,000 damage to self.

Basically, the amount of EX Gauge used multiplies the number of grenades, hence a lvl 5 Grenade (25 pcs.) is composed of 5x (750 damage) and 5x (600 damage)

With that said, I can safely assume that 3,750 / 25 = 150 damage per grenade (1 pc.)
3,750 (total damage of lvl 5)
25 (total number of grenades)

This information can be useful for grenadiers out there, now you know that the life of your enemy can be taken away with one-shot. :wink:

Now, the thrill is how to get that close to the target. :o
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Unread postby priere » August 26th, 2008, 3:48 pm

The serious challenge lies at getting close either against 2000-SP1 or 2K due to each's extreme mobility rate. 2K might won't be much of a trouble offensively (no catchy weapon) but SP1 will absolutely nail you down using its' deadly accurate Thunder Beam Rifle.

Just another trivia, I tried to test each mech's moving speed and come up with this list

Too Fast : (around 60m/s walking speed)
SP1
2K

Fast : (around 55 m/s walking speed)
Vista, Comb, Selena, Iris, Cym, Anth

Med : (around 50 m/s walking speed)
XP
XP-B
XP SP3

Slow : (around 40 m/s walking speed)
MS-98
Mil
Mil-R

I am not certain with this data. Can anyone help me to elaborate with a more precise data?
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Unread postby Wiser Guy » August 26th, 2008, 6:42 pm

@ryujin

Alright, I looked at your grenade damage research and found...That the single shot grenade of the MS-98 does 100 damage, but the regular grenade attack does 150 damage per grenade. Weird, but I see where I made my mistake. Yes, you were right, I was wrong.

It still doesn't redeem the MS-98 in my eyes...But I'm gonna create a thread if I want to discuss this further.
Break wrote:After having a few games with Agent and Wiser Guy, I'm probably going to have to correct some bits, specifically as far as 2000 SP1 and XP SP3 goes. Witnessing defensive styles for the former and a couple of shortcomings for the latter means I'll have to revise their respective sections somewhat.

Wait, what? What are you implying here...The shortcomings of mine or the SP3 mech?
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common mistake

Unread postby ryujin » August 26th, 2008, 7:04 pm

This is really a common mistake, the term "grenade (single shot)" refers to the 5 grenades of MS-98 (weapon 4).
While the term "grenade" refers to the 5 grenades of Millenium (weapon 3).
But the (weapon 3) of MS-98 is also called "grenade," and it only refers to a single one. :?

I'm getting really confused on how to name the grenades so I name them precisely to avoid misunderstanding. :o

I don't know why YSK named these in such a confusing manner but it really makes people awfully confused. :?
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Unread postby Break » August 26th, 2008, 10:30 pm

Wiser Guy wrote:
Break wrote:After having a few games with Agent and Wiser Guy, I'm probably going to have to correct some bits, specifically as far as 2000 SP1 and XP SP3 goes. Witnessing defensive styles for the former and a couple of shortcomings for the latter means I'll have to revise their respective sections somewhat.

Wait, what? What are you implying here...The shortcomings of mine or the SP3 mech?


The SP3. Sorry for the lack of clarity. :3
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