Honorifics

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Honorifics

Unread postby TenguSan » May 8th, 2010, 11:23 pm

I am sure i will get some nasty looks for my criticism... but it should be said and it is being said with good intentions in mind, despite the tone.

I started playing Farland Symphony and was shocked at the very amateur move in translating: NO HONORIFICS

almost EVERYONE who uses fan translations and plays Japanese VNs and RPGs in general know what honorifics are. Even if you may know Japanese and we don't, thinking we readers are so stupid as to not know what "onii-chan", means is quite arrogant, foolish, and does nothing more then heavily degrade the translation and insult the reader. Anyone who does not know honorifics could learn it within 5-10 minutes at the very most, and even less time if the needed info is readily available on the readme.

Even if some readers don't care if the Sister says "Hello brother" or if names are not given honorifics even though it is clearly audible, the fact still remains that the translation is much more degraded this way.



Believe it or not, i am actually a fan of mirror moon... but this action simply shocked me. I hope that translations in the future will be done with the reader in mind, rather then thinking that we are stupider then we actually are. My intention isn't to whine, but to point out a simple fact in hopes that it will kept in mind for future improvement.

Sorry for being so blunt.. that is just how i am.



As to the readers of this thread: Discuss if honorifics should be in games, and why.
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby Message » May 9th, 2010, 7:15 am

TenguSan wrote:I am sure i will get some nasty looks for my criticism...

Not from us, don't worry.

Since I didn't partake in the localization of Farland, I can't argue about the reasonings behind the localization choices. I'll leave that to the people who actually made those choices. But please do allow me to point out two flaws in your post, that make your post sound more like flamebait than an invitation to an orderly discussion:

TenguSan wrote:thinking we readers are so stupid as to not know what "onii-chan", means is quite arrogant, foolish, and does nothing more then heavily degrade the translation and insult the reader.

TenguSan wrote:rather then thinking that we are stupider then we actually are.

Your assumption that the reason for our localization choices is that we think the readers are stupid, is incorrect. So please don't use that as an excuse to call people arrogant, foolish, degrading or insulting.

TenguSan wrote:...the fact still remains that the translation is much more degraded this way.

TenguSan wrote:My intention isn't to whine, but to point out a simple fact...

In your excitement you appear to have misphrased "optinion" as "fact".

Flamebaiting is prohibited under rule number 1 (Sanity Clause), so please try to phrase your posts less intrusive and more reasonable.
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby TenguSan » May 9th, 2010, 8:10 am

Message wrote:In your excitement you appear to have misphrased "optinion" as "fact".

Flamebaiting is prohibited under rule number 1 (Sanity Clause), so please try to phrase your posts less intrusive and more reasonable.


My intention was not at all to flame-bait, this is just how i speak. Still, i will keep it in mind and try to choose my words differently... amusing you meant "opinion".
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby Message » May 9th, 2010, 4:41 pm

TenguSan wrote:
Message wrote:In your excitement you appear to have misphrased "optinion" as "fact".
...amusing you meant "opinion".

Doh! :D
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby TenguSan » May 10th, 2010, 2:57 pm

my point was that when translators put "Mister" instead of "Onii-chan", it makes me wonder why they would do such a thing, seeing as how they are on very opposite ends of addressing someone. The only logical answer is that the translators felt that "Onii-chan" would not be understood.. as well as every honorific cut from the game. Hence what i said about what translators think about the readers. They can understand honorifics, but felt that the reader in general will not. The translation was built on the basis that the readers in general understood extremely little or nothing at all about even the most basic forms of address. This, in my opinion, is heavily in error.. and is the basis of my OP post.

Most people who are into this genre of games, fan translated Japanese games, DO understand what 'onii-chan' and all the other basic Japanese honorifics. Anyone i have ever talked to, and almost everyone i have ever seen on forums about fan translations, DOES know what honorifics are. Most likely, for this reason, honorifics are very common in translated Japanese PC games. The very few people that don't understand honorifics, probably should learn them seeing as what type of games they are getting into use them often. Why the translators thought this game was exempt from this, is beyond me. Based on the above is why i said that the translation is, indeed, degraded from the decision to cut out all honorifics.

I am not trying to flame or flame-bate, i am just pointing out what i believe to be in error. My OP and this post is not out of anger or excitement.. it was out of a need to point out and correct. It was and is all based on logic, reasoning, and yes.. facts. I know i can come out very blunt and harsh when i am making a point.. I don't want to argue or anything like that.

i just want my point to be understood so the quality of translation in future games would be improved. Otherwise, sorry for taking up your time.

@Message: I know you probably can't and won't say whether or not i am correct.. and might even say i am not correct in order to give the translators your support due to your position... but please know i am not trying to flame or flame-bate. I might be blunt sometimes, but i am not a troll.

@Other readers: Further discussion on this thread should be about whether honorifics should or should not be included in future games. This is just my opinion.. what is yours?
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby Message » May 10th, 2010, 3:07 pm

TenguSan wrote:@Message: I know you probably can't and won't say whether or not i am correct.. and might even say i am not correct in order to give the translators your support due to your position...

Oh, that's not an issue at all. If you want my semi-professional opinion, I think most of your arguments are flawed and your conclusion entirely incorrect. I'm just too lazy to enter a discussion like this. (If on the other hand you want my personal opinion, I think some of your arguments only show that you really don't know what you're talking about. But my personal opinion really isn't material to the topic at hand.)
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby TenguSan » May 12th, 2010, 3:22 am

Message wrote:
TenguSan wrote:@Message: I know you probably can't and won't say whether or not i am correct.. and might even say i am not correct in order to give the translators your support due to your position...

Oh, that's not an issue at all. If you want my semi-professional opinion, I think most of your arguments are flawed and your conclusion entirely incorrect. I'm just too lazy to enter a discussion like this. (If on the other hand you want my personal opinion, I think some of your arguments only show that you really don't know what you're talking about. But my personal opinion really isn't material to the topic at hand.)


hmm. can you please explain how it is that i am inaccurate? if i am incorrect, would rather be corrected than continue to be wrong.

i told you, my intention isn't to flame.
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby Message » May 12th, 2010, 5:19 am

Like I said, I'm too lazy for this stuff. But to throw you a bone: Just to take your last post, you start off with "onii-chan" and "mister" being on opposite ends. This is entirely not true. Imagine a young girl befriending or socializing with a grownup stranger, her calling him mister may very well be typical. And then you say "The only logical answer is..." which is entirely not true either. I can think of several other explanations, some more believable, some less so. Buuut since I'm lazy, this'll be my last post on this topic. These forums aren't really populated enough for this kind of discussion, but I'm sure you can find some very interesting related topics in gemot for example.
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby TenguSan » May 12th, 2010, 5:46 am

Message wrote:Like I said, I'm too lazy for this stuff. But to throw you a bone: Just to take your last post, you start off with "onii-chan" and "mister" being on opposite ends. This is entirely not true. Imagine a young girl befriending or socializing with a grownup stranger, her calling him mister may very well be typical.

I meant in terms of formality and general meaning, not whether either can be used in a given situation. I won't bother to re-explain what i meant within my posts, as continuing to do so seems to border on futility.

It seems my wanting to help through my observations completely backfired. I apologize for taking up your time.. also if i am indeed incorrect in my reasoning, i apologize for that as well.
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Re: Honorifics

Unread postby Uberoy » May 12th, 2010, 7:28 am

Maybe it's just me or shouldn't this be in "Farland Symhpony grammar mistakes and typos"? Though it cannot be discussed there but it still seems like a more appropriate place to post something related to the translation.
But I shall forgive you. Some things are beautiful because they cannot be obtained.
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