tatari/nanaya in fate stay night? (what if..)

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Unread postby TheXev » April 2nd, 2008, 7:32 pm

Thread moved to General forum. To many branches to belong in Melty forum. This is what the general forum is for people. :/
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Unread postby james-skarz » April 7th, 2008, 12:54 pm

Arcueid + Shiki > Saber + Shirou

You have 'Existence Creation' (Shirou) vs 'Existence Denial' (Shiki) and 'The King of Knights' vs 'The Princess of Vampires'. Stack on top of that that Shirou can instantly obtain proficiency with any sword he uses, Shiki can turn into an incredibly powerful demon slayer and that Arcueid is 4 x Saber's power? Yeah....Shirou might win, MIGHT. But Arcueid would be able to take 'em. Especially if she was at 100% and under a full moon, in which case even Shiki might be no match for her (as stated by Arcueid, I think).
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Unread postby Raitei » April 7th, 2008, 1:34 pm

james-skarz wrote:Arcueid + Shiki > Saber + Shirou

You have 'Existence Creation' (Shirou) vs 'Existence Denial' (Shiki) and 'The King of Knights' vs 'The Princess of Vampires'. Stack on top of that that Shirou can instantly obtain proficiency with any sword he uses, Shiki can turn into an incredibly powerful demon slayer and that Arcueid is 4 x Saber's power? Yeah....Shirou might win, MIGHT. But Arcueid would be able to take 'em. Especially if she was at 100% and under a full moon, in which case even Shiki might be no match for her (as stated by Arcueid, I think).
I see... no matter what she does, a little sister can never win against her onee-san. :cry: (why do I feel like saying it of all sudden...)

but shiki vs shirou...
it's a draw. more or less.
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Unread postby Neofit » April 26th, 2008, 9:12 pm

but shiki vs shirou...
it's a draw. more or less.


There was this cross-over doujin where Shiki killed Berserker and destroyed Shirou`s reality marble. Would that even be possible?
I mean servants aren`t connected to the world anymore so Shiki shouldn`t be able to see their lines. I also thought that reality marbles were the same, since their are a world of the caster, separate from the real world.

Might need to lurk moar tho.
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Unread postby Ciel » April 26th, 2008, 9:44 pm

The shiki vs shiro battle would probably end with one of them creating and throwing blades and the other one destroying them until shiro runs out of magic and shiki's brain goes over the limit, then they both collapse. :P

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Unread postby Neofit » April 27th, 2008, 1:53 pm

Nice shoop. :P
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » April 27th, 2008, 3:16 pm

Pheeewww...

Real nice...
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Unread postby Superflonic » April 27th, 2008, 8:57 pm

Black hair suits him better. way better.
Candlejack, I wonder what hap
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Unread postby kensain » September 25th, 2008, 3:18 pm

Y'know, I never really bought the whole "shiki vs shirou ends in a draw" thing that nasu said.

I mean, shirou can use any sword proficiently, but that doesn't seem anything close to 17 disection or running along walls and the ceiling.
The second he'd get close, I'd imagine Shiki would assasinate him.

And the alternatives are either projecting an overwhelming phantasm capable of killing servants in a single hit (excalibur or whatnot) or an UBW sword rain, but both of them require too much time and concentration.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » September 25th, 2008, 3:35 pm

Well never the less I can say this. It doesn't matter who wins or losses, but the battle will be epic never the less. That's the only thing that matters of course.
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 26th, 2008, 4:02 am

noble phantasm....

FUYUKI WIKI!!!!!

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF GOD
"If powers are at max and we ignore the point of self-destruction caused from overflow then Shiki will win. No matter how much Shirou makes swords, Shiki will keep 'killing' them. It's a different story if it's possible to use a 'Mana Burst' like Excalibur."

Problem points:
1. Most probably referring to Archer-Arm Shirou but it could just as well be UBW Shirou. In either case if we ignore the fact that both of these people aren't going to have a future left after the fight, then Shiki wins. UBW Shirou is more of a gatling gun type anyway so that would be more appropriate for a killing one after the other.
2. Killing a Noble Phantasm, even a traced one, will cause problems apparently. "Self-destruction due to overflow" in the case of Shiki could either mean the amount he has to deal with or the nature of Noble Phantasms (even traced) or a combination of both.
3. Interpretation of last line by some is that Shiki can't kill Excalibur. Interpretation by others is that Shiki can't do CRAP about an energy blast.


Also one must consider whether or not shiki can see death on spirits. As for my opinion I believe he can, as heroic spirits should be Gaian concepts.

If you look at the fuyuki wiki though most of these questioned have been answered by nasu himself.
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Unread postby Raitei » September 26th, 2008, 4:17 am

gexer64 wrote:Also one must consider whether or not shiki can see death on spirits. As for my opinion I believe he can, as heroic spirits should be Gaian concepts.
no. why? because servants are outside the realm of gaia. the world is trying to crush them for their very existence. that's why prana is needed to sustain their existences. nuff said.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 26th, 2008, 4:35 am

Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:Also one must consider whether or not shiki can see death on spirits. As for my opinion I believe he can, as heroic spirits should be Gaian concepts.
no. why? because servants are outside the realm of gaia. the world is trying to crush them for their very existence. that's why prana is needed to sustain their existences. nuff said.



Wouldn't that mean he cannot destroy reality marbles? If that's the case how was nero killed?
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Unread postby Raitei » September 26th, 2008, 4:49 am

gexer64 wrote:Wouldn't that mean he cannot destroy reality marbles? If that's the case how was nero killed?
there's an additional reason why servants are different from reality marbles. they are already dead. you can't kill something that no longer has death. and as a sidenote, servants do not die when they are killed. nuff said.
fuyuki wiki wrote:Servants are still technically spiritual bodies, not fully resurrected heroes. They're a projection or a copy of the "greater body" in the Throne of Heroes and don't have real flesh. It's not as if they're living in our time. They don't carry any new memories other than the memories they carried with them before they died. Information/records taken in after they died is a different story.

Also as they're spiritual bodies, not ones with true flesh, they can't be harmed by modern weapons. This is the most dangerous part of Servants, as far as us normal folk are concerned. However, Servants can be destroyed. On the other hand, the Heroic Spirit itself is an indestructible phenomenon and will not be wiped out through the destruction of its temporary vessel.

fuyuki wiki wrote:Arthur's soul is still alive and not in the Throne yet as she is not a Heroic Spirit. Which is why she carries on the direct memories instead of a record of what she did each time until she obtains a Holy Grail. In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.

Heroic Spirits
fuyuki wiki wrote:英霊 - Eirei

A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.

A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 26th, 2008, 5:14 am

I now know that reaching "akasha" is impossible. For every answer their is a dozen questions.

Honestly one day Nasu should just release a text book. It would make everyone's lives easier.

It would probably be 1000 pages long too.
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Unread postby Rikh » September 26th, 2008, 6:44 am

Raitei wrote: servants do not die when they are killed.


Your wrong

Shiro's Famous Quote to saber says so ;)
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » September 26th, 2008, 8:31 am

Servants don't "die"...their temporary bodies disappears and turns back into Heroic Spirits
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Unread postby Raitei » September 26th, 2008, 9:11 am

Rikh wrote:
Raitei wrote: servants do not die when they are killed.


Your wrong

Shiro's Famous Quote to saber says so ;)
fact #1: "people" generally refers to humans.
fact #2: servants are not humans (at least, now).
argument #1: people die when they are killed. <-refer to fact #2
conclusion : therefore, servants do not die when they are killed.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby gexer64 » September 26th, 2008, 5:56 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:Servants don't "die"...their temporary bodies disappears and turns back into Heroic Spirits


So their existence as a servant "dies."

Just for the record I do believe raitei's description is correct. But by playing devil's advocate we get more information.
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Unread postby Tash » September 26th, 2008, 6:07 pm

gexer64 wrote:
nanaya_shinya wrote:Servants don't "die"...their temporary bodies disappears and turns back into Heroic Spirits


So their existence as a servant "dies."

Just for the record I do believe raitei's description is correct. But by playing devil's advocate we get more information.

...so they'd turn human?
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