What is the symbolism behind the grass and blue moon?

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What is the symbolism behind the grass and blue moon?

Unread postby deathknight » June 4th, 2007, 7:47 pm

I know Kinoko made his writings as the stream of consciousness but what I'm intrigued in is the underlying philosophical meaning behind the settings and scenery. A case in point: The green grassy fields with the lone tree where Shiki met Aoko-sensei for the first time. What does that grassy field really represent? Innocence or a growing development of some kind? What about the tree? It gets cut by Shiki yet it reappears sometimes intact (not sure if I remember correctly). Also its interesting the contrast between the "life" I assume the sunny grassy field is and the "dark" the grassy field looks at night under the blue moon. What can you deduce as meaning for the blue moon expressly in the context of the grassy field with Shiki and Sensei together? What did Nasu want to tell, what was he trying to make you feel as you see that image of the blue moon shining on Shiki and Aoko in the same grassy field but yet the emotions and atmosphere is so different (not necessarily bad just different) from when the blue moon shined on the Nanaya camp the night they got slaughtered by the crimson red vermillion compared to Shiki's embrace and reawakening with his encounter with the crimson red magician (pun intended :wink: )

On another note I noticed a similarity with a book written by an american author called the Lovely Bones. The feeling of stream of consciousness is pretty evident by the narration alone and there are a few philosophical similarities or comparisons that can be argued if you read the book. Sorry for the long read but I developed a real interest in the philosophy of Nasu or "Nasuology" :) (I wonder where he got his ideas from? His philosophy teacher in university?)
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Unread postby Beowulf Lee » June 5th, 2007, 1:21 am

Even with Freudian critics, a cigar is sometimes just simply a cigar (if you understand that analogy).

I don't think there's anything deep with the grass field. What the writer was trying to do is really quite obvious. It just creates a nice clean feeling, a fresh feeling represented in his new direction in life after he met the red haired chick, and also a good contrast to the dark hospital room that he was stuck in.

As for the blue moon, it's a natural symbol for vampires (this is a vampire story after all). Also, moonlight is simply cool. Blue is a cool color. Also, as for the subtitle of Tsukihime, something like "glass moon", I believe that just to be Engrish.

Also, in regards to this "stream of consciousness" thing, I've had a argument about it with Impratic_Shiki (which I don't feel like repeating), but the only thing that I really see is simple first person narrative. I wiki-ed Lovely Bones and the term "stream of consciousness isn't in the article. If you really want to read stream of consciousness, read some exerts from Ulysses (James Joyce).

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/ulyss12.txt

Here's an example:

"The chemist turned back page after page. Sandy shrivelled smell he
seems to have. Shrunken skull. And old. Quest for the philosopher's stone.
The alchemists. Drugs age you after mental excitement. Lethargy then.
Why? Reaction. A lifetime in a night. Gradually changes your character.
Living all the day among herbs, ointments, disinfectants. All his
alabaster lilypots. Mortar and pestle. Aq. Dist. Fol. Laur. Te Virid.
Smell almost cure you like the dentist's doorbell. Doctor Whack."
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Unread postby deathknight » June 5th, 2007, 2:46 am

Well I have to agree to disagree here. The grass field is a recurring kind of symbol in Tsukihime. If you notice Shiki's happiest times in his childhood were in the time he spent with Akiha and Hisui and the time with the Aoko babe. In both times there is a dominance of nature not as a threatening or sinister presence but possesing more of an anodyne quality in regards to the fact it nurtures the warm carefree feeling and endless days of fun and relaxation for Shiki and the girls. Its a time of innocence and joy for Shiki in an otherwise dark world and even darker future and it helped him escape the pain of losing his past as well. I think if you look at it in purely logical terms you can argue there is no emotion in this. Looking at this scenery and blue moon as a logical positivist according to Popper would imply that the grass is green. But how do you know the grass is green? Because you see it as green using the a direct perception you apply to it. However green and pleasant smelling it seemed to Shiki how can it truly be that way? How can he honestly believe it? What proof can you offer to support the assertion that the grass gives the nice clean feeling and a freshness that the author was supposedly trying to imply to the reader? It is arguable that the method of deduction would state you can use your senses to make the assertion valid and then make the hypothesis pass muster from the most diffciult tests possible in order to judge the theory sound. But if you say all grassy fields are green with a fresh feeling to them it is less clear than saying this particular grassy field is green. Thus logically it is a corrborating hypothesis supported by one test that overall is a falsifcation. Perhaps none of this is real in very sense of the word to Shiki and the green grass field is really just an illusion presented to his senses as an interpretation filled with implausible realities. But it is this paradox that supports the belief that Shiki is in a state of bliss and tranquility not really from the setting but rather that the passive atmosphere of the environment he is in acts as reinforcement for the main source of his joy which is other people whether Hisui & Akiha or Aoko.

The blue moon presents another interesting fact where Shiki said many times how beautiful it was in the night his family was murdered, the night he died in the bad ends, and the night he sat in the grassy field again to meet Aoko. This moon represents something like the cycle of life perhaps. But why is it blue? If you say something like the moon is blue how can that be validated as fact? Is it more of a philosophical context or a metaphysical one? Can you truly argue that the blue moon presents a night of death or a beginning of life? The glass moon could imply that the moon is made of glass or it could also mean the moon is a mirror casting the reflection of each character's souls back onto themselves. Considering how pretty much everyone looks at the moon before/during/after death it is unmistakable that the moon is related to death. But I don't think its death's harbinger. I believe it is something more having to do with the deeper meaning of human resonance. However how can you make a sound deduction from this? How can this hypothesis be supported? Certainly Hume would have a difficult time with this. It would be easier to explain this as a falsification but it really means something muich more to me personally than mere facts would allow.
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Unread postby Beowulf Lee » June 5th, 2007, 3:27 am

One thing I learned from my AP Lang class is that literary analysis in any other form besides looking only what the text says is BS. Unless, of course, you ask the author and he confirms that that's what he was trying to do. From what you've said, perhaps you've been taking what I said too seriously. It's really all speculation backed up by your own interpretations (and from what I remember from a year ago when I read the thing).

The grass field is a recurring kind of symbol in Tsukihime. If you notice Shiki's happiest times in his childhood were in the time he spent with Akiha and Hisui and the time with the Aoko babe.

The only grass field I know of in the game is where Shiki met Aoko. I wouldn't consider where they played as children a grass field (my memory's a bit fuzzy on this, maybe the author did call it a grass field). As I already said in my previous post, the contrast between the grassfield and the dark hospital room is clear, there's not doubt about that. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that the story always presents "nature" as good and "inside buildings" is bad. Remember that Shiki was stabbed outside. Also remember that Shiki is always inside when he's banging his lovely haremettes. I would consider those "good" times.

As for the blue moon business, I think you were closer to money with it representing death. The connection is clear with Shiki looking up at the moon when blood dripped down from his dead mom(?) from which he obtained the power to see death. The dead ends with the moon thing then, is clear. What's left is Aoko, and I think him meeting her was just highlighting a turn for Shiki's interpretation of death, when he obtained his glasses and got slapped in order to appreciate life.
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Unread postby Message » June 5th, 2007, 5:13 am

Beowulf Lee wrote:One thing I learned from my AP Lang class is that literary analysis in any other form besides looking only what the text says is BS.

I wonder if your literary analysis teacher even knew what a visual novel was.
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » June 5th, 2007, 10:16 am

Blue moon = obvious

Glass moon = implies fragility

Sort of spoiler... In the epilogue of Tsukihime, Shiki mentions that the moon is always there, yet even something so "permanent" will eventually fade away... in other words, emphasizing the ephemeral nature of everything. Plus, it might just look like glass, too.


Grass moon = the grassy field is a big part of Tsukihime. In addition, there is a grassy field important in Kagetsu Tohya. I'm sure it was even intentional where they put "grass moon".
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » June 5th, 2007, 3:44 pm

What you get out of any story is largely up to you.

Formally, you're expected to literally take the text for what it is with such choices exceptions as sardonic/satiric works to name one. You can't debate/speculate classic/modern literature "respectfully" unless you're a trained scholar. Equivalently connecting aspects of the writer's life/time in which it was written/text to your personal interpretation. So a teacher's words can be taken with a grain of salt as they're taught through the process of getting a degree from college.

As for literary analysis---

Symbolism is treated as more of an ambiguous technique. So it's likely any explanation offered here is viable. Which is why I make use of it in college papers. It offers much more wedge room for personal opinion.
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Unread postby animefanzmg » April 10th, 2008, 8:17 pm

The blue moon presents another interesting fact where Shiki said many times how beautiful it was in the night his family was murdered, the night he died in the bad ends, and the night he sat in the grassy field again to meet Aoko.

I don't think i ever saw that. is this in Tsukihime or melty blood? how do i see this?

speaking of blue moon i see it as a kinda wearwolf refernce and a symbol of inversion impluse.
if i remember correclty when Shiki and akiha fought both at their most transformed it was a full moon and in the bad end where you kill akiha Shiki walks towards the moon as Nanaya
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Unread postby Catastrophe » April 11th, 2008, 1:08 am

animefanzmg wrote:
The blue moon presents another interesting fact where Shiki said many times how beautiful it was in the night his family was murdered, the night he died in the bad ends, and the night he sat in the grassy field again to meet Aoko.


I don't think i ever saw that. is this in Tsukihime or melty blood? how do i see this?

speaking of blue moon i see it as a kinda wearwolf refernce and a symbol of inversion impluse.
if i remember correclty when Shiki and akiha fought both at their most transformed it was a full moon and in the bad end where you kill akiha Shiki walks towards the moon as Nanaya


about the question, dont know if its the general rule to be this way, but i saw that scene right after clearing all routes in tsukihime.

and use quotes next time.
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Unread postby animefanzmg » April 11th, 2008, 2:49 am

beating kohaku's route in my save file didnt work does anybody have a save file that could be used to see this or know the requirements?
nevermind i was missing ciels true ending even though ive seen it just have to view all endings.
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