STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 10th, 2009, 5:15 am

A bit extreme, but yes, that is the idea I got from Nasu's answers. If there is a dramatic difference between your innate power and the external source of power you are employing, you have a chance of killing Arc.
However, the unknown is that, what constitutes this "dramatic difference"?
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 10th, 2009, 1:57 pm

There seems to be a problem with that rule applied universally. If Arc is only given enough power to overcome her opponent based on their innate "stats", then any opponent that can produce some unexpected, external weapon or power source would have a distinct advantage over Arcueid.

Imagine if she were sent after some ordinary human. Would she be given enough power so as to be only somewhat stronger and faster than the average human? If that were the case, all her hypothetical target would need to do is bust out a Mac 10 or Tec 9 and cap her sorry ass.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby abscess » August 10th, 2009, 2:23 pm

@Oolinthu
That's an interesting approach I didn't consider before, but it does fit with what seems to be said. I'm leaning more on the idea that Arc has a starting stat much like Ciel, probably lower, and that it escalates until the needed level.
Why do I mention Ciel?
IIRC, when Arc and Ciel fought in Ciel's route, Arc had trouble handling Ciel, but then she got stronger and Ciel got tired. The rest is story. At least that could be the case with Arc in her current level of crappiness thanks to Shiki during Tsukihime. During MB Arc probably would have a starting stat much higher than Ciel's.


By the way.... I now just realize that this thread isn't spoler-tagged.... Since we mentioned Gilgamesh and other servants, isn't that kinda info considered spoilerific? Wouldn't it be a good idea if this thread was spoiler-tagged?..... Just saying!
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 10th, 2009, 5:13 pm

Oolinthu wrote:There seems to be a problem with that rule applied universally. If Arc is only given enough power to overcome her opponent based on their innate "stats", then any opponent that can produce some unexpected, external weapon or power source would have a distinct advantage over Arcueid.

Imagine if she were sent after some ordinary human. Would she be given enough power so as to be only somewhat stronger and faster than the average human? If that were the case, all her hypothetical target would need to do is bust out a Mac 10 or Tec 9 and cap her sorry ass.

This is why I asked "what constitutes a dramatic difference in power". Switching from human power to pistol may not be a "significant change in power", but switching from normal servant melee to accessing the countless NP in GoB may be too much a power boost for Arc to handle. Also, the entry only mentioned strength fluctuation, it never said anything about Arc losing all her True Ancestor perks (moon hack, planet backup, and such).


By the way.... I now just realize that this thread isn't spoler-tagged.... Since we mentioned Gilgamesh and other servants, isn't that kinda info considered spoilerific? Wouldn't it be a good idea if this thread was spoiler-tagged?..... Just saying!

Yes, that would be helpful.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Iiyo » August 12th, 2009, 1:21 am

Oolinthu wrote:There seems to be a problem with that rule applied universally. If Arc is only given enough power to overcome her opponent based on their innate "stats", then any opponent that can produce some unexpected, external weapon or power source would have a distinct advantage over Arcueid.

Imagine if she were sent after some ordinary human. Would she be given enough power so as to be only somewhat stronger and faster than the average human? If that were the case, all her hypothetical target would need to do is bust out a Mac 10 or Tec 9 and cap her sorry ass.

It's not just Servant stats. It's stats plus everything they've got. Arcueid draws power from the world. Her power cannot exceed the world. Gilgamesh has an anti-world rank weapon. He also possesses more than enough weapons and items to buy him time to charge up his laser. This is one method. The other method is just the GoB spam for massive damage.

Archer might take out Arcueid if he uses some kind of instant death effect, like Gae Bolg.

Rikh wrote:
kaerstan01 wrote:
Xanathos wrote:Someone said Ryougi can move at mach one. How is this possible considering she's a human and doesn't know sorcery?

yup, and its her third personality that can move at a speed of mach 1 :wink: (yuck, power level lol)

do people understand just how fast mach 1 is anymore :|

343 m/s: Mach 1
1000 m/s: Speed of a rifle bullet.

Baka Tsuki translation wrote:As soon as she pulled the knife out to the side from her belt, she immediately threw it at the mage.
The knife blade penetrates the two-fold ward.
Like a stone skimming the water the knife bounced twice off the top of the circle, and flew towards the mage's forehead. At the speed of a bullet.
"---?!"
The mage nimbly evades. The knife nicks the edge of his ear and disappears into the corridor, and the ear which had appeared to have evaded the attack has been carved off. Flesh, blood, broken bone. Brain fluid leaks out of the wound.
"--- Ugh."
The mage lets out a groan.
Faster than that however --- he felt an impact that skewered his body.
Thud, and a white darkness lands upon the mage's body.
By the time the mage grasped that this was Shiki, who had charged straight at him after throwing the knife, the outcome of the fight had already been decided.

Anyway, doesn't matter. Characters all move at the speed of plot and we all know it.

Also, Shiki's 3rd personality is the strongest character in type-moon.
Shiki's 3rd personality commenting on the regular Shiki in the epilogue wrote:Right, that is Shikis power. Like Fujino she can see channels that normal people can't see, she is able to see the spiral of origin with her eyes. But, I can go even deeper. No... maybe I myself am that spiral.

.... Spiral of origin, its where all cause and effect begin, where everything and nothing exist, that is my true identity. Even though we are just connected, but since I am part of it, I too am an equivocal existence, right? That is why I can do anything..hmm like restructuring the laws governing atomic matter, or go back in time to change the evolution and development of all life, to reconstruct the orders and laws of this world is easy for me too. Not making change to the existing world, but rather annihilate the old one with a new reality.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 12th, 2009, 2:01 am

My Kara no Kyoukai-fu is lacking, mostly due to me not having the patience and interest to read the actual novel. However, what you posted is really convincing stuff.

Shiki Tohno's MEoDP merely provides Tohno with a connection Akasha, and its function is still restricted by Tohno's inability to fully comprehend Akasha. What the passage is saying is that Ryougi has a connection to Akasha, she can comprehend the Akashan records, and she might be Akasha itself (or able to manipulate the Akashan records at will). Basically, if Ryougi wishes, she can literally erase her opponent from existence...

Since Akasha is universal and independent of temporal and spacial influences, Ryougi could technically "kill" (or rather erase) the Aristotles... No one is really immune from Akasha, because it is everything...


Topic closed eh?
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Iiyo » August 12th, 2009, 3:26 am

Well it's the only topic for power levels (except for nanaya vs ryougi) so the topic will probably still get used for that I guess.

But, just to expound on how h4x Ryougi Shiki's third personality really is. Taken from the Moonlit World:
Summary of the Epilogue wrote:She is that original personality of Ryogi Shiki. The two personality were created within her. If the two personalities are like software, she is like the hardware. Normally that true personality wouldn't carry any knowledge of itself, but the Ryogi family was able to keep that personality active. In fact this personality is what's directly connected to the root of all things. She was born being connected to the root, but normally that will die while it's in the mother's womb. However the Ryogis made it possible for her to survive with intelligence. But she didn't find any interest in having such power. Knowing everything and having everything is just boring.

So, Ryougi Shiki's third personality is not only omnipotent, but also omniscient. We can safely conclude she is the most powerful character in all of Nasuverse.

Oh, and to answer your other question. Yes. Yes we are.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby shirou12 » August 13th, 2009, 1:54 pm

just out of curiosity, IF EVER tohno had an ability to comprehend akasha, would it be he would gain an ability as powerful as ryougi? (im not talking abt the physical power, but the power to comprehend the akasha since both of them has connection from it.).

this is only a WHAT IF so pls dont answer that it cannot happen because it is already known.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Iiyo » August 13th, 2009, 8:54 pm

It can happen and it's already the case. That powerful ability Nanaya has as a result of his ability to comprehend akasha is the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.

If you are asking if Nanaya could comprehend Akasha to the degree of Ryougi Shiki (normal), he might be able to if he really, really, really pushed himself, but he would probably die shortly thereafter. If you are asking if Nanaya could comprehend Akasha to the degree of Ryougi Shiki (3), he would instantly die from overload.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 14th, 2009, 1:33 am

Ya, Iiyo is right. Nananya is connected to Akasha, but because of the limitations of the human body and human comprehension, all he can do is bringing the end to things governed by Gaian law.
What Ryougi achieved is not normal. The epilogue said that an individual naturally connected to Akasha would die of stillbirth, but the Ryougi clan somehow avoided this and gave birth to what essentially is an omnipotent god (although unreliable).

So basically you can say Ryougi was born better than Nananya. Ryougi had an innate connection to Akasha since day one, Nananya established the connection by accident. HOWEVER, I do believe there is a way for Nananya to catch up to Ryougi. If Nananya is transformed into a Dead Apostle, he would have a stronger body, as well as the time to develop his MEoDP and his connection with Akasha. This is a pretty big "if" though, but I think it is the only possible way.

*Yes, bite him Arc, bite him*
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby shirou12 » August 14th, 2009, 12:50 pm

Nanaya will be too dangerous if he gets bitten by arc lol XD. well thanks guys :D
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 16th, 2009, 9:11 pm

But wouldn't Nanaya kill himself?
After all he might go berserk after finding out that he has 'demon' characteristics?
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby shirou12 » August 17th, 2009, 10:02 am

nanaya is not a demon and will never be. he is just a a psychic human and with abilities surpassing a normal human thats all.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 17th, 2009, 10:56 am

Then if that's the case nothin' will happen if he gets bitten, even by a True Ancestor.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 17th, 2009, 4:00 pm

No, I think what Dark_Habit meant is that Shiki's Nananya blood reacted to Arc when they first met. If he becomes a Dead Apostle, then his Nanaya blood maybe would react to the contamination of vampire blood. The question he is asking is that, would Shiki's Nananya lineage cause him to try killing himself?
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 17th, 2009, 5:03 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:No, I think what Dark_Habit meant is that Shiki's Nananya blood reacted to Arc when they first met. If he becomes a Dead Apostle, then his Nanaya blood maybe would react to the contamination of vampire blood. The question he is asking is that, would Shiki's Nananya lineage cause him to try killing himself?


Yes, if Shiki Nanaya can turn into a DA, it seems like that will happen(Atleast someone gets my drift).
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby shirou12 » August 18th, 2009, 9:30 am

hmmmm well in that case, it may turn out that the genetic data of TA's blood may overwirte nanaya's genetic data or some alterations may happen?.

i think at ciel's route good end, shiki was given a very little amount of blood by arcuied to save shiki.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 18th, 2009, 1:41 pm

shirou12 wrote:hmmmm well in that case, it may turn out that the genetic data of TA's blood may overwirte nanaya's genetic data or some alterations may happen?.

i think at ciel's route good end, shiki was given a very little amount of blood by arcuied to save shiki.


That blood was given to him as "nutrition"or"to increase his immunity against Roa",it was not injected into his body,so I don't think that it would contaminate his blood.
And besides if his genetic info was overwritten he would lose a few of his abilities(The Nanayas had "cultured" high-quality assassins through controlled inbreeding after researching which gene combination would provide maximum strength),unless only the Anti-Demon gene gets overwritten,which is highly impossible, as I don't think Arc,heck any TA, would have that much control over their blood.Though if he becomes a DA he would regain those abilities,I think.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby abscess » August 19th, 2009, 4:07 am

On T. Shiki being transformed into a DA:
Considering that Tohno had an urge to kill Akiha and Arc (for obvious reasons) in early parts of the story, but later could just as easily sit and have a casual chat or hump the bejeezus outta 'em, I think that it's not too far from possible to say that at first he would have suicidal tendencies but settle down later.


shirou12 wrote:i think at ciel's route good end, shiki was given a very little amount of blood by arcuied to save shiki.

Where did you get that from?

Dark_Habit wrote:[...] if [Thono's] genetic info was overwritten he would lose a few of his abilities(The Nanayas had "cultured" high-quality assassins through controlled inbreeding after researching which gene combination would provide maximum strength)

The Nanayas abilities are passed within the blood (who knows how, exactly), but, once a Nanaya is born, wouldn't those abilities be part of the body, not depending on the genetic makeup of the person? I'll try to exemplify it: Take a trained soldier and implant a radioactive piece of metal on him (Co-60 may do the trick). His genetic make-up will start deteriorating due to radiation and there more than likely be mutations on it, but he still knows how to fight. Probably something like that may happen to T. Shiki if he is turned into a DA.
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Re: STRONGEST character in Type-Moon.....

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 19th, 2009, 7:32 am

abscess wrote:Where did you get that from?


Some day(I don't remember which),a choice is given as to whether you want to get Ceil's True or Good Ending.
1.Obey Arcrueid->Good Ending(After finishing the True Ending once it will take you to the Good Ending)
2.Don't obey her->True Ending

But now that I think read it again, whatever happened was vague.It said,"Arcrueid is trying,to get me to drink her blood.".Nothing has been mentioned that T.Shiki did drink Arc's blood(though it seems likely).


abscess wrote:The Nanayas abilities are passed within the blood (who knows how, exactly), but, once a Nanaya is born, wouldn't those abilities be part of the body, not depending on the genetic makeup of the person? I'll try to exemplify it: Take a trained soldier and implant a radioactive piece of metal on him (Co-60 may do the trick). His genetic make-up will start deteriorating due to radiation and there more than likely be mutations on it, but he still knows how to fight. Probably something like that may happen to T. Shiki if he is turned into a DA.


Your half-correct.From what I've studied(Yeah, I've studied a bit of genetics),Genes dictate every
characteristic's limit in a body.If his genetic material is detoriated,though he may still be able to fight(
based on his natural instincts,something which will never get destroyed).His body may remember
his techniques,skill etc;but his mind wont be able to use them,as the data that stored such had
been overridden.He will still possess the same potential,and when he turns DA,he will probably gain
back these abilities(due to the superior body).But not matter how similar they are to his original abilities,
they will never be exactly the same(it might or might not be noticeable,though).For example,
Nanaya was basically a "speed" fighter.If his genes detoriate,and are reconstructed,he would gain back his
"speed" gene,but it won't be exactly the same (a DA side-effect).As a result there would be some change
(more agile movement,better reactions,etc.)Also the main problem in Nananya is his anti-demon blood.
Most of it would probably 'fight' with a TA's blood,and various consequences could occur;his blood could have
beaten the TA's blood,nothing would happen then;they would fight for control over his body and possibly destory
him or make him a DA(less likely).This type of action can also have various anomalies,which would be very
hard to predict.In short, 45% chances he won't change,35% he dies due to internal conflict,40% he becomes
The Dead, of which 30% he becomes a DA.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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