If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

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SolarAdept
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by SolarAdept » May 7th, 2009, 10:00 pm

Winning Holy Grail War is easier than getting that fruit from the forest.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by AvatarofRage » May 8th, 2009, 5:38 am

Well, maybe if someone tricked/forced Arc to give into her bloodlust, causing her to go on a killing spree. Either Shiki is forced to kill her, or she recovers, and kills herself out of shame (or at least, something to a similar effect)
Shiki might then seek a way to revive Arc, and/or erase the event from history,

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by -Shiki- » May 10th, 2009, 5:18 am

SolarAdept wrote:Winning Holy Grail War is easier than getting that fruit from the forest.
True enough..So lets make a team..Arcueid is a must..Toss in Shiki(or preferably, satsujinki) and the unkillable Ciel..Retrieval=Cake(Well, it would be tougher than that..But, exageration is natural)..XDXD..Toss in a couple of people and we can have a picnic in the forest..LOL

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by abscess » May 10th, 2009, 6:34 am

SolarAdept wrote:Winning Holy Grail War is easier than getting that fruit from the forest.
...??
I fail to see how that's true. Shiki is no magus and he isn't even close to be as... whatever it is Kuzuki is. From what I know, he has no chance of becoming a master. If he was a Counter Guardian working for Alaya*, then he probably would be able to go to war as a Servant.

* My nasuverse knowledge has been failing me. I can't remember exactly if the CGs worked for Alaya and if al CGs where heroes...
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Chaos Chaud » May 10th, 2009, 7:01 am

Yes the CGs works for Alaya about the heroes part I don't remamber either... :oops:
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki

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Re:

Unread post by Pink » May 10th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Ausdoerrt wrote:Shiki cannot be a hero or a CG cause he wouldn't choose too... And also because the Nature wouldn't let him - he'd be an overpowered cheat-mode character =)) Summon Shiki, kill the Holy Grail war, game over =)))
Maybe the Grail doesn't have a defined end.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by AvatarofRage » May 11th, 2009, 1:45 am

true, Shiki couldn't kill a Heroic Spirit entirley, but he could probably kill the 'projected' hero that manifests in the war, since they're basically magic constructs with the hero's mind and abilities copied into it, and are ultimatley still of earthly origin (Ea notwithstanding)

Mind you, Shiki killing the spirits could serioulsy screw over the war, as demonstrated by Nero, the magic within them would simply cease, as opposed to returning to the grail like its supposed to.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 11th, 2009, 10:32 am

Ah, it's bound to happen all the times. Shiki being able to kill Servant or not. :lol:

The answer is no. Simple.

Shiki's Eyes work only in accordance to the Gaian concept. Nrvnqsr Chaos, while his body is comprised of Reality Marble, still exists within Gaian concept because he only expands his RM within his body. That's why he doesn't need prana to sustain his existence; the World is not trying to crush him.

The Third violates the law of the World; it doesn't work in accordance of the Gaian system. That's why prana or energy is needed to materialize it; the World is trying to crush it. Servants gain "body" from the Grail; their bodies require mana to sustain their existence. Otherwise, the World will crush them too. So in the end, since they don't have Gaian concept of death, Servants don't have line that can be seen by MEoDP.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Chaos Chaud » May 11th, 2009, 1:09 pm

Off Topic
Kikuchi wrote:Ah, it's bound to happen all the times. Shiki being able to kill Servant or not. :lol:

The answer is no. Simple.

Shiki's Eyes work only in accordance to the Gaian concept. Nrvnqsr Chaos, while his body is comprised of Reality Marble, still exists within Gaian concept because he only expands his RM within his body. That's why he doesn't need prana to sustain his existence; the World is not trying to crush him.

The Third violates the law of the World; it doesn't work in accordance of the Gaian system. That's why prana or energy is needed to materialize it; the World is trying to crush it. Servants gain "body" from the Grail; their bodies require mana to sustain their existence. Otherwise, the World will crush them too. So in the end, since they don't have Gaian concept of death, Servants don't have line that can be seen by MEoDP.
Why MEoDP can only work in accordance to the Gaian concept? Isn't it more like:

1-"Shiki does not understand death outside of Gaian concept. Therefore, his eyes doesn't see death of things outside of Gaian concept."

2-"Shiki never saw anything outside of Gaian concept. Therefore, he doesn't have need to understand it, nor have the base data to try tounderstand it."

3-"If Shiki saw something outside of Gaian Concept, like a Servant, he could try to understand it. If it is possible to Shiki understand it, then he can now kiil it."

That's what I thought about it basing myself when arcueid says in Tsukihime that to see death of something shiki needs first to understand it...
Back on topic, shiki can be a CG like shirou, he just needs to make a pact with the world. But, judging his personality, I think he would only make it in a situation like: akiha is close to death and the only possibility available to save her is by making a pact with the world. Of course only if he had previous knowledge about the pact so
► Show Spoiler
doesn't count XD :lol:
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 11th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:
Off Topic
Kikuchi wrote:Ah, it's bound to happen all the times. Shiki being able to kill Servant or not. :lol:

The answer is no. Simple.

Shiki's Eyes work only in accordance to the Gaian concept. Nrvnqsr Chaos, while his body is comprised of Reality Marble, still exists within Gaian concept because he only expands his RM within his body. That's why he doesn't need prana to sustain his existence; the World is not trying to crush him.

The Third violates the law of the World; it doesn't work in accordance of the Gaian system. That's why prana or energy is needed to materialize it; the World is trying to crush it. Servants gain "body" from the Grail; their bodies require mana to sustain their existence. Otherwise, the World will crush them too. So in the end, since they don't have Gaian concept of death, Servants don't have line that can be seen by MEoDP.
Why MEoDP can only work in accordance to the Gaian concept? Isn't it more like:

1-"Shiki does not understand death outside of Gaian concept. Therefore, his eyes doesn't see death of things outside of Gaian concept."

2-"Shiki never saw anything outside of Gaian concept. Therefore, he doesn't have need to understand it, nor have the base data to try tounderstand it."

3-"If Shiki saw something outside of Gaian Concept, like a Servant, he could try to understand it. If it is possible to Shiki understand it, then he can now kiil it."

That's what I thought about it basing myself when arcueid says in Tsukihime that to see death of something shiki needs first to understand it...
Just like how Shirou can't trace Ea because he can't understand it, Shiki cannot see lines or dots on things that are beyond comprehension of his eyes. Your argument therefore doesn't work. It's not a matter of "trying" to understand; once Shiki can't see, he can't kill. Same case with Shirou; if he can't comprehend a sword, he can't trace it no matter how hard he tries.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by shirou12 » May 14th, 2009, 2:56 am

The akashic records allows shiki's eyes to comprehend on it, thats the reason why shiki can see death of all things around him. If he can understand more about heroic spirits or counter guardians, then their is a possiblity that he can kill, but in his present state, i guess he cant. Unless he became a counter guardian.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 14th, 2009, 1:50 pm

shirou12 wrote:The akashic records allows shiki's eyes to comprehend on it, thats the reason why shiki can see death of all things around him. If he can understand more about heroic spirits or counter guardians, then their is a possiblity that he can kill, but in his present state, i guess he cant. Unless he became a counter guardian.
In addition to the Gaian limitation of Shiki's Eyes, "lines cannot be seen on things that cannot be broken in present era". Servants don't live in the present era. They no longer have death as they are already dead. And they don't exist in this World... can't exist in this World anymore. That's why the World is trying to crush them.

Tohno Shiki can't see death of things that don't have death (how can you kill something that no longer has life / already dead?). If it's Ryougi Shiki, then it's a different story.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by abscess » May 14th, 2009, 5:02 pm

Kikuchi wrote:In addition to the Gaian limitation of Shiki's Eyes,[...]
Uhm.... sorry to ask but, where does it say that Shiki's eyes are limited to just the Gaian concept of death and doesn't have the chance to h4xor his way through the Akashic record of stuff?
Servants don't live in the present era.
I think it's fairly known that the actual Servants live in the Throne of Heroes, but what is present in the War as Servants are copied of that same data that is in the Throne.
That's why the World is trying to crush them.
I'm gonna sound like a total noob but.... I can't remember where does it say that the world is trying to crush the Servants.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 15th, 2009, 2:18 am

abscess wrote:
Kikuchi wrote:In addition to the Gaian limitation of Shiki's Eyes,[...]
Uhm.... sorry to ask but, where does it say that Shiki's eyes are limited to just the Gaian concept of death and doesn't have the chance to h4xor his way through the Akashic record of stuff?
Because he is a Gaian (or whatever you call it; a being that lives in Gaia / Earth). I don't remember something like this said in the game so it must be from character materials or something. Check fuyuki for more details; it has all info stored there. But I'm going to point the specific quote here:
► Show Spoiler
That's why the World is trying to crush them.
I'm gonna sound like a total noob but.... I can't remember where does it say that the world is trying to crush the Servants.
Fate Route. It doesn't say this explicitly, but Rin implied something about Servants being phenomena, and that their existence is a violation to the laws of the World. That's why Prana is required to maintain their existence, and all those stuffs about maintaining Saber in this World.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by shirou12 » May 15th, 2009, 5:38 am

I am refering to the copied spirits that participate in the holy war, i dont refer to the actual heroes at the throne of heroes and i dont give a damn on them.

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 15th, 2009, 8:20 am

shirou12 wrote:I am refering to the copied spirits that participate in the holy war, i dont refer to the actual heroes at the throne of heroes and i dont give a damn on them.
The so-called Copied Heroic Spirits don't have predetermined life span either, kiddo (as they are already dead). And they are "unlawful" phenomena whose existence is not allowed by the World. The two requisite of "predetermined life span" and "Gaian death" is blown off by such beings. Try to read and understand the whole damn thing about Servants before you make a comment about Shiki being hax and able to kill them :P

Also, no offense intended, but do you actually understand English? If you do, you'll realize that I have been talking about Servants all the time and not dead Heroes in the Throne of Heroes. I don't give a damn about Heroes in the ToH either. And I don't see how you can throw that comment in when nobody talks about those dead Heroes. :P
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Pink » May 16th, 2009, 9:57 pm

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Kikuchi » May 17th, 2009, 4:09 am

Pink wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Minor correction:
Nrvnqsr as Berserker (no explanation needed) :lol:
Arcueid is already a Faerie; she won't become another kind of "divine" spirit. :)
Ciel as Saber.
Akiha as Berserker / Caster. :lol:
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 4:40 am

Shiki would not want to become a counter guardian. The reason being he is not as selfless as Shirou.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread post by shirou12 » May 17th, 2009, 5:43 am

Kikuchi> Lol at you dude, you dont need to heat up like that i am just STATING MY OPINION, and I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT WITH YOU BECAUSE OF THIS THINGS. I read all about them, you dont need to throw to me those kind of comments to me. Anybody knows HOW SMART YOU ARE. I'm outta here.

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