If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Message » May 17th, 2009, 6:46 am

shirou12 wrote:Kikuchi> Lol at you dude, you dont need to heat up like that i am just STATING MY OPINION, and I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT WITH YOU BECAUSE OF THIS THINGS. I read all about them, you dont need to throw to me those kind of comments to me. Anybody knows HOW SMART YOU ARE. I'm outta here.

Indeed you are, if I see you flamebaiting one more time. Only warning, shirou12.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby -Shiki- » May 18th, 2009, 2:33 am

But not able to see the line doesnt mean he cant kill heroic spirits.. he just cant see the lines..but i doubt he can do much damage with his knife..XD
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 18th, 2009, 4:38 am

-Shiki- wrote:But not able to see the line doesnt mean he cant kill heroic spirits.. he just cant see the lines..but i doubt he can do much damage with his knife..XD
Well, Nanatsu Yoru is a good knife, but still, it's an ordinary knife. And Shiki's speed is nowhere near a Servant's, so hack and slash approach is definitely out of question.

Back to topic. xD
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » May 18th, 2009, 6:04 am

Shiki's only "official" chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit is probably after the events in Tsukihime 2 (if it actually comes out that is). Exterminating quite a number of Dead Apostle Ancestors/Canditates could be considered a "Great Achievement". I mean, he's not gonna last long anyway (due to his own body's condition) but he still manages to kill some DAAs.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Pink » May 18th, 2009, 8:07 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:Shiki's only "official" chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit is probably after the events in Tsukihime 2 (if it actually comes out that is). Exterminating quite a number of Dead Apostle Ancestors/Canditates could be considered a "Great Achievement". I mean, he's not gonna last long anyway (due to his own body's condition) but he still manages to kill some DAAs.


I think simply surviving the attention and affections of so many dangerous females qualifies as a Great Achievement.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 18th, 2009, 11:58 pm

Pink wrote:I think simply surviving the attention and affections of so many dangerous females qualifies as a Great Achievement.
In what way it benefits humanity? It surely gives humanity larger toll than benefit (some of the women went on rampage just to get his affection, causing numerous homicide).
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Pink » May 19th, 2009, 2:38 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Pink wrote:I think simply surviving the attention and affections of so many dangerous females qualifies as a Great Achievement.
In what way it benefits humanity? It surely gives humanity larger toll than benefit (some of the women went on rampage just to get his affection, causing numerous homicide).


The benefit to humanity is the children. So many powerful children that can fight for mankind. Not to mention it will give hope to thousands of lonely geeks.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby SolarAdept » May 31st, 2009, 12:45 pm

...Or against it... Who knows what kind of personalities his kids might have.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Pink » June 6th, 2009, 5:43 pm

SolarAdept wrote:...Or against it... Who knows what kind of personalities his kids might have.


They will all be Moe or Tsuntsun, but all have uber-redeeming qualities making them perfect for VNs. Creating such wonderful personalities that would begin to merge the world of VNs with Reality would create the greatest known Reality Marble with the abillity to bring out VN characters into the real world, eventually completing the merge of VNs with reality.

Aka, giving hopes to millions of nerds. Sure there might be some destruction, but it'd just be inspirational destruction, like playing Mozart on artillery.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 6th, 2009, 6:03 pm

Or they might be villains. Being the kid of some (questionably) good guys doesn't mean they are good automatically. Shiki is pretty much a True Neutral, while Arc's a Chaotic Good and most of the others are a mix of Neutral, Chaotic and Good(Only character who is remotely Lawful is Ciel.)
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 9th, 2009, 7:31 pm

nanaya_shinya wrote:Shiki's only "official" chance of becoming a Heroic Spirit is probably after the events in Tsukihime 2 (if it actually comes out that is). Exterminating quite a number of Dead Apostle Ancestors/Canditates could be considered a "Great Achievement". I mean, he's not gonna last long anyway (due to his own body's condition) but he still manages to kill some DAAs.

I don't know though, in the grand scheme of things, DAA's are pretty insignificant. If you say Old Man Zelretch is going to become a heroic spirit, I might believe you, because he patented dimensional operations and slain Crimson Moon. DAA's are the derivatives of the derivatives of Crimson Moon, they are neither powerful gods, nor phantasmal beasts like dragons. As a result, killing them will not amount to major significance. In fact, the majority of the humanity does not know of DAA's, so legends will not be written about Shiki, and we all know how legends are an integral part of a heroic spirit.

In other words, Shiki's only "official" way of becoming a Heroic Spirit is via the Counter Force route, namely following the path of EMIYA.

(Major screw-up when trying to stop a DAA from killing many humans... Shiki forced to make a pact with the world...Shiki killed the DAA.... Shiki became a counter guardian after death....





Met Archer when working to exterminate threat to humanity, had a few drinks and became best friends...)
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Gadolinium » June 17th, 2009, 5:22 am

Now please correct me if i'm wrong, and ill admit i'm quite the noob to this stuff, but theres a few things i have to say here, aren't the DAA basicly like really weak servents in that they already died and need to consume life forms to maintain enough prana to keep form. Also, this is more of a side note and again sorry for being a noob, but wouldnt it make sence that Shiki's fighting ability come from training he probbly did up until he was 8 with the Nanaya clan, he wouldn't have it in his memory, but his body would still remember, and i'd find it very hard to believe that they wouldnt start training the future head of the house at as young an age as possible, also im not sure if people are coming up with all this info about the more in depth stuff, but if there are english link to it i'd apprecaite if some one could post them(only know hiragana atm, not to mention my vocabulary sucks)
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby solopy567 » June 17th, 2009, 5:40 am

Well, he can't become the head of the Nanaya clan because the Nanayas were decimated by the Kishimas, and Shiki abandoned his Nanaya persona in favor of being a Tohno.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Gadolinium » June 17th, 2009, 6:09 am

solopy567 wrote:Well, he can't become the head of the Nanaya clan because the Nanayas were decimated by the Kishimas, and Shiki abandoned his Nanaya persona in favor of being a Tohno.

well i know that, but they wouldn't have known that at the time so would have been raising him to be a capable head, obviously thats useless now that the clan itself died, but it doesn't change the fact that he was indeed raised as a Nanaya for a bit, so it wouldn't be too shocking in my mind at least to find out that he had quite extensive training and would be very well of physically if it wasn't for his wound. Not that im trying to play him up or anything, it just seems like an obvious point i've never seen addressed. Also for the pure sake of staying on topic, the only way i could see Shiki becoming a heroic spirit is if he had to defeat Arcruid and made a contract (or maybe if he did it without on it would count as an achievement) but i don't think anyone would be happy with that kind of an ending, its all up to Nasu at the end of the day though so i guess we'll just have to wait and maybe he'll address it himself instead of our endless speculation.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 17th, 2009, 5:08 pm

Gadolinium wrote:...the only way i could see Shiki becoming a heroic spirit is if he had to defeat Arcruid and made a contract (or maybe if he did it without on it would count as an achievement)...


You don't need Nasu's words to find out that this does not make much sense. Arc is a True Ancestor (maybe superior due to her close association with the Crimson Moon), which means that she is a protector of the World. To become a counter guardian, you need to make a pact with the World. How can killing the protector of the World make the World want to make a pact with you? That is like asking someone for payment after you killed their precious daughter.

If Shiki wants to become a legitimate Heroic Spirit, he needs to become legendary. The greater population of the Nasuverse has NO IDEA who Arcueid is, they don't even know real vampires exist. How can killing a monster no one knows give you fame? Remember that Heroic Spirits are the crystalization of MANKIND's wishes and dreams, if no one knows about you and your deed is mostly unknown, there is no way for you to become a true Heroic Spirit.

There is a method similar to the one you suggested that may land Shiki a place in the Throne of Heroes. That is, somehow Type Mercury goes on a rampage and starts to kill humans en masse, then Shiki comes out and kill him (it?). As a result, Shiki lands some great fame as the saviour of mankind. Oops, I forgot, Type Mercury is not governed by Terran rules and can't be killed by MEoDP. Ya, there is pretty much no way in modern times for someone to become a Heroic Spirit. Shiki probably has to cross his fingers and hope the World throws him a bone and make him a counter guardian, that is the only way for him to become a "heroic something".
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 17th, 2009, 9:27 pm

Well, if DAAs started to rampage freely(slim chances) in human cities and Shiki showed up and killed them in his Satsujinki persona, then he might generate enough rumours to make it to a low-ranked HE. Might. Might. Might.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 17th, 2009, 9:49 pm

Like Emiya, if Shiki were to become a hero it would likely be by becoming a Counter-Guardian, not a Hero; Nasu hmself said that Shiki is nowhere near the best of humanity (at least that's what I've read elsewhere)
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby abscess » June 17th, 2009, 10:06 pm

I think gadolinium said something interesting. Although Keeper is right that making a contract so Shiki could kill its daughter looks really, really weird, what if it was a rampaging Arcueid? It's known that Arc is the strongest of the TA, a rampaging Arcueid could go killing people indiscriminately and pose a threat to humankind, since she's virtually unstoppable. Shiki could make a contract with the world to become a counter guardian and become inhumanly strong.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 18th, 2009, 2:34 am

abscess wrote:I think gadolinium said something interesting. Although Keeper is right that making a contract so Shiki could kill its daughter looks really, really weird, what if it was a rampaging Arcueid? It's known that Arc is the strongest of the TA, a rampaging Arcueid could go killing people indiscriminately and pose a threat to humankind, since she's virtually unstoppable. Shiki could make a contract with the world to become a counter guardian and become inhumanly strong.

IF Arcueid goes berserk and start destroying humans by the hundreds of millions (there is no way this would happen, Arcueid has plot armor), Alaya would shift into gear in order to balance out the force of Gaia (the berserk Arc in this case). This would mean the counter force would gather to destroy Arc in order to restore the equilibrium.

However, this would prove to be an epic clash, as we all know, a True Ancestor who gives in to bloodlust will be able to unleash her full power. Alaya probably needs to dish out hundreds of counter guardians and fight Berserk Arc in a moon-less night (Arc is invulnerable when there is a full moon according to Tsukihime?).

Ok, so epic descriptions aside, I presume you can see that in a conflict of this magnitude, there is really NO room for small fries like Shiki. I think SolarAdept's scenario is more believable. Some high-tier DAA starts to kill some people, and Shiki makes a pact with the world to stop the powerful DAA. This is assuming that the World values Shiki's skills and wants him as part of the counter force.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby solopy567 » June 18th, 2009, 12:06 pm

I don't think Shiki is considered small fry at all. After all, he managed to kill DAA that the Church couldn't even touch, as well as accomplish things that no one else could. Small fry would be Akiha, since she is more like a supporting character. Shiki has the potential to become a heroic spirit/ counter guardian, but yes, it is all ultimately up to Alaya.
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