If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 18th, 2009, 4:22 pm

Also, doesn't a TA lose the world's support if he/she becomes berserker? I remember that Fallen TA were about as strong as regular TA.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 18th, 2009, 9:31 pm

Mazyrian wrote:
Also, doesn't a TA lose the world's support if he/she becomes berserker? I remember that Fallen TA were about as strong as regular TA.

Actually, fallen TAs will only be stronger than weaker. A normal TA spends the majority of their power to suppress their lust for human blood. A fallen TA will no longer need to suppress his desire for blood, thus unleashing his full power. Also, a TA never loses the support of the world, even after they are fallen. Even evil spirits like a fallen TA are still part of nature and never cut off.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 19th, 2009, 12:31 am

I know they no longer need to suppress their bloodlust, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (MB?) that they lost something (I think it did was the world support), so overall they were about as strong or only a little stronger. Well, if they're using 99% to suppress themselves, they would be quite stronger, but 30% Arcueid would be about as strong as fallen Arcueid
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 19th, 2009, 2:47 am

Mazyrian wrote:
I know they no longer need to suppress their bloodlust, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (MB?) that they lost something (I think it did was the world support), so overall they were about as strong or only a little stronger. Well, if they're using 99% to suppress themselves, they would be quite stronger, but 30% Arcueid would be about as strong as fallen Arcueid

I am pretty sure Gaia does nothing to the fallen TAs and inflicts no penalty, otherwise the TAs would not "give birth/create" Arcueid at all, they will just dispose of the fallen ones themselves. It is because a rampaging TA is essentially unstoppable, they need a powerful elemental that can suppress even true ancestors. How do you suppress something as powerful as a TA? Of course create something that is as close to the original Crimson Moon as possible. I doubt there is anything besides the counter force can stop a fallen Arcueid.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

The Church might have some Conceptual Weapons that can kill her. Black Barrel might be effective against her, plus they've got their Holy Scriptures.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby abscess » June 20th, 2009, 3:31 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
IF Arcueid goes berserk and start destroying humans by the hundreds of millions (there is no way this would happen, Arcueid has plot armor), Alaya would shift into gear in order to balance out the force of Gaia (the berserk Arc in this case). This would mean the counter force would gather to destroy Arc in order to restore the equilibrium.

However, this would prove to be an epic clash, as we all know, a True Ancestor who gives in to bloodlust will be able to unleash her full power. Alaya probably needs to dish out hundreds of counter guardians and fight Berserk Arc in a moon-less night (Arc is invulnerable when there is a full moon according to Tsukihime?).

Ok, so epic descriptions aside, I presume you can see that in a conflict of this magnitude, there is really NO room for small fries like Shiki. I think SolarAdept's scenario is more believable. Some high-tier DAA starts to kill some people, and Shiki makes a pact with the world to stop the powerful DAA. This is assuming that the World values Shiki's skills and wants him as part of the counter force.

Dammit..... That does make sense... ya killed an idea I had for a fic ;_;
But, I don't see why the world wouldn't intervene when a DAA kills people but it would with a crazy-ass Arc.

SolarAdept wrote:The Church might have some Conceptual Weapons that can kill her. Black Barrel might be effective against her, plus they've got their Holy Scriptures.

Probably, but
Ciel had trouble fighting a normal Arcueid. I think that an Arc in 'serker mode would be nearly impossible even for the Church's special op's unit (Burial Agency) with Black Barrel or not.
Didn't Ciel try to use it in her route against Arcueid and still got screwed?


Also, wouldn't it be better if this thread was spoiler tagged? We are mostly talking about scenarios only people that have finished both games would get.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 20th, 2009, 11:09 am

Well yeah, browsing Fuyuki I found nothing to back up my claim, but instead confirmation that fallen TA are stronger, so it seems I pulled that out of thin air.
And I also found that "at the moment, there is only one successful case of a child being born between a human and a True Ancestor"

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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 20th, 2009, 11:16 am

She didn't get to use BB on Zerker Arc.(I'm assuming that's the True End fight you're talking about) Generally, BB is more of a weapon that should be used when you are in the back lines.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby Message » June 20th, 2009, 12:00 pm

abscess wrote:Also, wouldn't it be better if this thread was spoiler tagged? We are mostly talking about scenarios only people that have finished both games would get.

Done, and moved to TYPE-MOON chat.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby solopy567 » June 20th, 2009, 12:01 pm

I don't think Black Barrel would be very effective against her since in the Melty Blood manga, Sion fired it at Arcueid at point-blank range, and Arcueid only got a few scratches.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno?

Unread postby abscess » June 20th, 2009, 12:35 pm

Message wrote:Done, and moved to TYPE-MOON chat.

Yaaaaay! Thanks, man.

solopy567 wrote:I don't think Black Barrel would be very effective against her since in the Melty Blood manga, Sion fired it at Arcueid at point-blank range, and Arcueid only got a few scratches.

1.- The Melty Blood manga isn't canon.
2.- It was Black Barrel Replica, not the Black Barrel.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 20th, 2009, 2:09 pm

The Black Barrel does more damage if the enemy has more gin (ether?). It killed Type-Venus with one shot, and I guess against Crimson Moon it could do the same; against Arcueid it should at least do a fair amount of damage, specially since, unlike the Types, she has to restrain herself.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby abscess » June 20th, 2009, 6:56 pm

Mazyrian wrote:The Black Barrel does more damage if the enemy has more gin (ether?).

That's completely debatable. From what I know, there still is no word if Notes is to be taken as the futuristic nasuverse or an alternate one. Meaning that the Black Barrel Godo uses may not be the same Black Barrel in the Tsukiverse or any other known iteration of the nasuverse. Also, wasn't the 7th Holy Scripture the Black Barrel that Ciel uses? If I'm remembering correctly, didn't she get owned anyway when she fought Arcueid (who wasn't rampaging) with it?

Mazyrian wrote:Arcueid [...] has to restrain herself.

We are talking about a rampaging Arcueid.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 20th, 2009, 8:29 pm

abscess wrote:
Mazyrian wrote:The Black Barrel does more damage if the enemy has more gin (ether?).

That's completely debatable. From what I know, there still is no word if Notes is to be taken as the futuristic nasuverse or an alternate one. Meaning that the Black Barrel Godo uses may not be the same Black Barrel in the Tsukiverse or any other known iteration of the nasuverse. Also, wasn't the 7th Holy Scripture the Black Barrel that Ciel uses? If I'm remembering correctly, didn't she get owned anyway when she fought Arcueid (who wasn't rampaging) with it?

Even if they're different universes, the weapon should be the same; otherwise Nasu wouldn't have called them the same. And I'm pretty sure the 7th Holy Scripture is a different weapon.

Mazyrian wrote:Arcueid [...] has to restrain herself.

We are talking about a rampaging Arcueid.[/quote]
Hm, yeah, I forgot, sorry; still, rampaging Arcueid should be about as strong as Crimson Moon, which IIRC is the weakest of Types.

Maybe be should be careful not to turn this into a powerlevel debate.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 24th, 2009, 2:29 am

Well, Black Barrel is a conceptual weapon, which means its essence is in the "idea" it carries rather than the actual power output. The "idea" Black Barrel carries is apparently "death/natural death", which means it forces the idea of limited lifespan/death onto its target.

I believe Black Barrel will be effective against Arc, not because she is made of aether, but because of her lack of the concept of death at night. Arc is made by Gaia, using the Crimson Moon as model. However, I don't believe Arc is made of ether. Fuyuki gave me the impression that aether is not a raw material Gaia employs in her creations.

That aside, from Tsukihime, we KNOW that Shiki was barely able to detect the concept of death from Arc at night, and it was implied that under optimal conditions, Arc could be truly invulnerable at night. So the Black Barrel should be an idea weapon against Arc, potentially killing her by forcefully applying the concept of death.

Note I use the term "invulnerable" loosely. Even if you do not have a concept of death, you can still be "killed". In the character book which introduced Type Mercury, it is said it lacked the Gaian concept of death, thus cannot be killed by MEoDP, but he can still be destroyed through physical means (I am not sure what they mean by that... anti-world weapon?).
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 24th, 2009, 10:47 pm

You can not have a gaean concept of death but still be able to die, I guess; ORT would have a mercurian concept of death, following this line of thought.
About the Black Barrel, that it is able to kill Arcueid doesn't mean that it is effectively possible to do so; maybe is slow to charge, or somehow impractical, and Arc could easily avoid its hits. After all, if it were that easy to kill her with it, Ciel would have already done it.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 25th, 2009, 3:23 am

I guess Ciel just does not have enough influence in the Church to be able to access such a powerful relic as the Lance of Longinus?
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 25th, 2009, 2:24 pm

But she does have it at her Good End (the Black Barrel is Longinus, right?); Enhance gave it to her.
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby zweiterversuch » June 25th, 2009, 6:28 pm

Mazyrian wrote:But she does have it at her Good End (the Black Barrel is Longinus, right?); Enhance gave it to her.



Wow wow!

I don't remember Ciel using the Black barrel.
She uses the Black keys and the "seventh holy scriture"?
(Which by the way is a soul sealing (or soul killing) weapon.)


The only ones I remember using the Black Barrel are Shion and the guy from angel notes...
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Re: If there's a hero Emiya can there be a hero Tohno? -SPOILERS

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 26th, 2009, 3:15 am

Mmmm, ya, the battering ram thing is the Seventh Holy Scripture. How did Enhance get his hands on the Lance of Longinus? The gun he uses is not even a replica...
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