Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

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Unread post by shirou12 » March 30th, 2009, 2:40 pm

^
pure win.

Hmm ryougi shiki can kill tohno shiki in an instant but NOT nanaya shiki, and it would be a tough fight between the two. 2nd, i think base on my knowledge, ryougi shiki can control her eyes but her eyes are not PERNAMENT active because she can shut it off temporarily and turn it on when she needs it unlike tohno who is perna active.

actually the shiki tohno shiki ryougi has seperate thread. lets minus the two shiki's from this two clans for a while.

nanaya reacts against inhuman beings but they can also react if they are in mortal danger, look at tohno shiki when he became insane in ciel route and turn to nanaya shiki, he even kill humans the same way he does. and i think the reason that they cant fight humans because they are not supposed to fight them, but if they wish to activate their skills as nanaya they can, if they put effort on it. and nanayas are not FIGHTERS they are ASSASSINS, thats why it is obvious that ryougi is better FIGHTER.

On land fights ryougi would mostly win but if inside the shadows or surprise attack nanaya would win.

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Unread post by Vhailor » March 31st, 2009, 11:29 am

Surprise attack means roughly anyone would win. Of course, anyone skilled enough but the purpose of an assassin is to oneshot by surprise. No contest, no battle and of course, no reason to make a fus about it : /. Preparation is the main factor to make this efficient. Skills and physical capabilities come in second only. So i don't see the point to highlight this fact since the contrary is also true (Nanaya getting stabbed by surprise attack by Shiki doesn't seem irrealistic at all.).

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Iiyo » May 7th, 2009, 10:14 pm

Fun fact.

Ryougi Shiki is going to be available in the new Melty Blood game. I'm guessing the game itself will feature a fight between Ryougi Shiki and Tohno Shiki.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 12:30 am

There is no Nanaya Shiki besides the TATARI Nanaya... I put this always when I see this argument so just read it.
► Show Spoiler
Shiki will be able to kill Ryougi in her normal personality (Ryougi(1)[Female] or Ryougi(2)[Male]) however if Ryougi(3) comes out [Ryougi(3) is the personality that comes from Akasha (also the personality that Kokuto see the first time he meets Shiki and is also the one that takes out Araya in his bounded field)] Shiki would lose because he wouldn't be able to react to an attack that comes at him at a speed faster than a bullet. But Ryougi(1) herself doesn't even know of Ryougi(3)'s existence and her abilities are comparable to a 5th dan in kendo now compare that to an (in)complete Nanaya (even if he is not completely trained he is still a master of most martial arts and has the physique of a beast).

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by solopy567 » May 17th, 2009, 3:28 am

Isn't Ryougi[3] the only Ryougi there is right now? Touko said in one of the movies that the current Ryougi is not Ryougi[1] or [2], but a new third one.
"Sion Eltnam is no more.
All there is left is a dead apostle who has inherited the name of TATARI.
Now.....Let's begin the Bloody Second Act." - Sion TATARI

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 4:23 am

I'm pretty sure it's Ryougi[1] simply acting like Ryougi[2] she is just lonely in her own mind. She stops after the sixth movie where
► Show Spoiler
Ryougi[3] is definitly different then the one Touko thinks REALLY DO NOT READ THIS SPOILER IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE SEVENTH NOVEL
► Show Spoiler
Last edited by Cruor on May 17th, 2009, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 5:01 am

Ryougi> Nanaya

Ryougi can move at mach 1, doesn't melt her brain, and her eyes are more powerful. Nasu himself stated that she can fight defensively against a servant. Nasu stated that Nanaya cannot. Make of that what you will.

Quoted from here:
► Show Spoiler

I made this bigger because I can't read the new default font size

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 5:17 am

Xanathos wrote:Ryougi> Nanaya

Ryougi can move at mach 1, doesn't melt her brain, and her eyes are more powerful. Nasu himself stated that she can fight defensively against a servant. Nasu stated that Nanaya cannot. Make of that what you will.

Quoted from here:
► Show Spoiler

I made this bigger because I can't read the new default font size

Yeah, Ryougi[3] will never come out again she said it herself in the end. Regular Ryougi can't beat Nanaya who Nasu also said can kill Shirou (Fate) and Shirou (UBW). Ryougi[3] can move much faster than mach one Ryougi Shiki can throw her knife as fast as a bullet and though it was a surprise and was not expected Araya dodged it easily despite him being completely surprised it happened. A bullet moves mach 1. However when Ryougi[3] came out Araya had to react out of instinct but already had his hand cut off even before then and did not even know it happened until he looked down therefore it had to be more along the lines of mach 3ish~. I did the size cause you said you couldn't read it.


Edit I have an idea

-Why don't you hold crtl + scroll up on mouse it makes text bigger.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by shirou12 » May 17th, 2009, 5:50 am

Nanaya Shiki can also throw his knife as fast, well that is one of his killings moves.

Sorry guys, but we pertaining to the families' abilities, we already know the damn things about the two shiki's XD.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Iiyo » May 18th, 2009, 10:50 am

shirou12,

The problem with having a discussion pertaining to the families' abilities is that we don't know the first thing about them. If you want us to talk about them, that's fine and everything, but you'll have to lay out all the info you've got on them because we don't exactly have any information to work off of. We'd have to make a set of thoroughly useless (useless because there is no reason for these assumptions to be right) assumptions in order to get anywhere, and even then, we don't get anywhere.

To be honest, even discussing Ryougi Shiki vs Nanaya Shiki is somewhat pointless. The nasuverse has evolved over the course of Nasu's works and the new rules aren't quite so backwards-compatible with the old rules. Beyond that even, the nasuverse is just plain inconsistent. It has a good system, but discrepancies pop up everywhere,* and so a fully cohesive conceptualization cannot be attained. As for that interview of Nasu's, as much fun as it may be to declare he has the final word on something, that interview is just ridiculous. For one, Nasu has, for a while now, expressed his desire to retcon Kara no Kyoukai (and, in fact, wished to rewrite the story for the movie, but the director wished to tell the original story). For another, Nasu's interview responses have the air of being completely inconsistent and made up on the spot. For yet another, he just said that Shiki (3rd Personality) is weaker than a Servant. The problem? Shiki (3rd Personality) was, at the end of the story, revealed to be more or less omniscient and omnipotent.

In the most general terms, I would stick to what I've stated all along, which is that regular Ryougi Shiki with a knife can still outmatch Nanaya Shiki (Nanaya Shiki defined as Tohno Shiki with his Nanaya mode fully active, like in the fight against Akiha in the Akiha route, iirc). That's because Ryougi Shiki's stats were made out to be much more impressive than Nanaya Shiki's stats, comparing their original literature. When we compare combat abilities, I'd say they should be about even. When we compare Mystic Eyes, Ryougi Shiki is a clear winner. When we compare endurance, I'd go with Ryougi Shiki. Even if that wouldn't cut it, if Shiki ever used her sword, it would be a done match.

*Try arguing what Archer's power level is when he gets serious. Or Gilgamesh's. Or wonder about how Shiki really did manage kill Arcueid or Nero even though the are canonically much, much faster than him and therefore should've been able to kill or at least dodge him in time. Even thinking about the plot deeply enough will make you realize the plot itself doesn't make sense, like how Rin tells Shirou that the only option is to have Saber consume people's souls, which goes against her own philosophy, only to make an about face later and reveal that there was another, much better, option all along. In spite of its large amounts of detail, it's one of those things where you must take the maxim "Don't examine this too closely." to heart. The annoying tidbit is that the incredibly specific details and analyses in the nasuverse are an open invitation to examine it closely.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by shirou12 » May 19th, 2009, 4:21 am

hmmm ok i'll try to lay some information about the families' abilities, this is what i found after i search some in fuyuki wiki.

For Nanaya's this is what i found:
► Show Spoiler
To further give info: For a time, the Nanaya were considered one of the most powerful families of the Organization. Though they possessed a psychic ability in the form of Pure Eyes, what truly made them so powerful was their assassination skills and the refinement of normal human physical potential taken to the maximum level, which allowed them to perform incredible feats of athletics and acrobatics such as defying gravity to run across walls. So that their powers could be passed down to their descendants, the Nanaya maintained the purity of their bloodline by having incestuous relations between themselves.

For Ryougi's

The ability of this family is to create multiple personalities within themselves. The personalities are used to gain multiple skills (ie: one for acting normal and one for fighting). When a child is born they are given one name written two different ways in kanji. This family is apparently still active but no longer fighting demons. They are now more like the Tohno family, in that they are wealthy landowners and represent Japanese upper class. Unlike the Tohnos, however, they live in a large Japanese-style mansion surrounded by groves of bamboo.

Unfortunately i can't find some unique skills for Ryougi.

Analysis:
Most Nanaya's has jougan, we can consider that there eyes has different abilities. If we can consider a place with more walls, ceilings or any places which can be walked upon, their physical skills are much effective when fighting.

Ryougi's Special abilities is to have multiple personalities with different stats and skills. We can say, that they can be a master of most martial arts and some of them MAYBE (not sure) has jougan.

^
those are the info's i got as you requested Iiyo.

Discussing about the powers of two shikis is useless, your right about that. After all, Nasu already clear some conspiracies on both of them.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Iiyo » May 20th, 2009, 12:32 pm

Hmm. A few points here:

On the Nanaya:
First, the Nanaya do not have an explicit ability for defying gravity like FSN's Rider does. They are simply so fast that for short bursts they can move across walls and ceilings because gravity takes a little while to pull them down. The Nanaya honed it to the point where it's considered a special trait of the clan, but the ability is not as unique as the description indicates. Presumably, Ryougi Shiki could do this as well, since this ability is just pure speed.
Second, the Nanaya are experts in assassination. Therefore, they are more likely to strike when an opponent's guard is down than pursue an up-front battle.
I think it's canonically confirmed that the Nanaya commonly possess jougan.
The incest is definitely canonically confirmed. Also, ew.

On the Ryougi:
First, the idea that the personalities are split up so it's "one for acting normal and one for fighting" is just conjecture. There is no evidence of that. It's more likely that the personalities are more split up like Fate/Zero's Assassin: ie. to master various diverse skills.
Second, there is absolutely no indication that the Ryougi family possesses Pure Eyes (ie. Jougan). It's possible, but there's absolutely no indication of this. Ryougi Shiki (unlike Nanaya Shiki) did not gain her Mystic Eyes through Pure Eyes; she had them because she was connected to the void and because her body was perfectly suited to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
What we do know about the Ryougi through Shiki is that they are practitioners of kenjutsu (traditional Japanese swordsmanship, as opposed to modern kendo), probably practitioners of tantojutsu (roughly meaning knife fighting), and unarmed combat. As far as sword-fighters are concerned, the Ryougi are positively exceptional.
Given that it's a key trait of the Ryougi to master various different abilities, the fact that the Ryougi family is of the Samurai caste, and that they are a key family of the Demon Hunter Association, it's quite possible that the Ryougi have a history in onmyodo (Japanese spell-casting and occultism that used to be very popular with the Japanese nobility until it was banned as superstition halfway through the 19th century). The kuji-kiri on Ryougi Shiki's favored sword lends credence to this idea.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by shirou12 » May 21st, 2009, 5:17 am

actually those 4 familes are all the key in demon hunter association not just ryougi. its already known that nanayas have no defying gravity skills. but still nanayas are still in top when it talks about speed. their skill to move around the walls and ceilings because of their speed is one of their unique skills. their assassination skills is also top notch, i guess they are not fool enough to strike an opponent head on. err i am not convinced that ryougis have knowledge in Onmyouji.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Iiyo » July 12th, 2009, 9:17 pm

shirou12 wrote:Actually, those 4 familes are all key families in the Demon Hunter Association, not just the Ryougi.
Yep, the four families have been confirmed to be Nanaya, Asagami, Fujino, and Ryougi.
shirou12 wrote:It's already known that nanayas have no defying gravity skills, but still Nanayas are still in top when it talks about speed.
Certainly, the Nanaya are known for top-notch speed, but Ryougi Shiki (normal) here looks like she could field an even match with Nanaya Shiki. We don't know if her speed is an inherent ability of the clan or just herself, though.
shirou12 wrote:Their skill to move around the walls and ceilings because of their speed is one of their unique skills.
Speed is not a unique skill. Moving around walls and ceiling because of speed is therefore also not a unique skill. Don't get me wrong - I do believe that speedblitzing up walls and ceilings is a honed speciality of the Nanaya, but I just don't think it's a unique ability only the Nanaya get to have.
shirou12 wrote:Their assassination skills are also top notch; I guess they are not fool enough to strike an opponent head on.
Um, given what we know about the Nanaya, we actually see them fighting head on more than we see them assassinating people from the shadows, which is their speciality.
shirou12 wrote:Err... I am not convinced that Ryougis have knowledge in Onmyouji.
I'm not either, to be honest. There isn't anything out there that confirms it. I'm just saying it's very plausible, given everything we do know.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by HolySlayer » January 9th, 2010, 11:34 pm

Yeah, if it was tohno than he would lose, but you guys are thinking that nanaya would fight fair. I mean his specialty is to assasinate, r.shiki is stronger, but nanaya would just assassinate her. =)

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by nanaya_shinya » January 10th, 2010, 2:41 am

aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to Nanaya will assassinate her with a stealth kill or Ryougi will overpower Nanaya in direct combat.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by Iiyo » January 10th, 2010, 7:03 am

Ryougi defeats Nanaya in direct combat, I say.

I mean, both Ryougi and Nanaya could definitely try to assassinate the other. But, they each also have a sixth sense strong enough that they would sense a stealth attack. So in the end, it boils down to direct combat anyway, no matter who tries to assassinate who.

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by nanaya_shinya » January 10th, 2010, 10:07 am

Iiyo wrote: I mean, both Ryougi and Nanaya could definitely try to assassinate the other.
Considering Ryougi Shiki's personality, and combat style... she'd rather face Nanaya head on than opt for a sneak attack. Like what she did with everyone she had fought, the only survivor being
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
We also can't tell for sure if Ryougi really have the ability to avoid a Nanaya quality sneak attack.
► Show Spoiler
The reason is that there are no stealth kill attempts on Ryougi in the novels. (Lio's like a wild/crazed animal, Fujinon had to say "bend", etc.)
There are no attempts even made if I remember correctly.

Well, Fujyou did managed to "possess" Ryougi's arms and she didn't noticed it until they're "possessed"... although I'm not really sure if that counts, but since it was unexpected I guess it counts.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by SirDekar » May 3rd, 2010, 6:29 am

(Sorry for the resurrection of this topic, but I've a small something to add in)

Right at the beginning of Tsukihime, Tohno cut his hospital room to bits, saying he "Traced the lines" (with a stick, or a pen if memory serves me right)
In KnK Ryougi cut a flower, a (possessed) person, and some scenery with her finger.

So, lets say Ryougi attacks first; Nanaya has a choice to either dodge or parry. If he parries, will his knife be "killed" ?
Would it turn into a fist fight?
Can Nanaya/Tohno cut with his fingertip like Ryougi?

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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread post by nanaya_shinya » May 3rd, 2010, 11:05 am

SirDekar wrote: So, lets say Ryougi attacks first; Nanaya has a choice to either dodge or parry. If he parries, will his knife be "killed" ?
Both can see the "lines". With their battle sense, the other would avoid getting his or her weapon from getting killed.
Would it turn into a fist fight?
lolwut? O_O
Can Nanaya/Tohno cut with his fingertip like Ryougi?
As long as his fingertip fits inside the "line", yes.
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