Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

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Unread postby shirou12 » March 30th, 2009, 2:40 pm

^
pure win.

Hmm ryougi shiki can kill tohno shiki in an instant but NOT nanaya shiki, and it would be a tough fight between the two. 2nd, i think base on my knowledge, ryougi shiki can control her eyes but her eyes are not PERNAMENT active because she can shut it off temporarily and turn it on when she needs it unlike tohno who is perna active.

actually the shiki tohno shiki ryougi has seperate thread. lets minus the two shiki's from this two clans for a while.

nanaya reacts against inhuman beings but they can also react if they are in mortal danger, look at tohno shiki when he became insane in ciel route and turn to nanaya shiki, he even kill humans the same way he does. and i think the reason that they cant fight humans because they are not supposed to fight them, but if they wish to activate their skills as nanaya they can, if they put effort on it. and nanayas are not FIGHTERS they are ASSASSINS, thats why it is obvious that ryougi is better FIGHTER.

On land fights ryougi would mostly win but if inside the shadows or surprise attack nanaya would win.
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Unread postby Vhailor » March 31st, 2009, 11:29 am

Surprise attack means roughly anyone would win. Of course, anyone skilled enough but the purpose of an assassin is to oneshot by surprise. No contest, no battle and of course, no reason to make a fus about it : /. Preparation is the main factor to make this efficient. Skills and physical capabilities come in second only. So i don't see the point to highlight this fact since the contrary is also true (Nanaya getting stabbed by surprise attack by Shiki doesn't seem irrealistic at all.).
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Iiyo » May 7th, 2009, 10:14 pm

Fun fact.

Ryougi Shiki is going to be available in the new Melty Blood game. I'm guessing the game itself will feature a fight between Ryougi Shiki and Tohno Shiki.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 12:30 am

There is no Nanaya Shiki besides the TATARI Nanaya... I put this always when I see this argument so just read it.

In Kohaku's route we see Shiki murdering someone on the fifth night where he kills someone and then proceeds to say things like 'oh well what's done is done' then SHIKI walks in on him they both proceed to take a knife out on each other Shiki acting on pure instinct then they both laugh it off and go out and drink coffee with each other and start talk about philosophies, their abilities (Shiki's eyes and SHIKI's demon blood ability of 'immortal'), and a whole lot of other stuff about how humanity likes poison (Shiki even comically says 'should we get cigarettes then we really will look like a couple of bad boys' should I remind you this is coming from a guy with anemia.... Oh yes, lets not forget how Shiki ended the conversation of saying 'forget it you may be more human then me but I'm stronger' I know he said something like that give or take perhaps change a few words as I haven't played Tsukihime in a while.

Also in Kohaku's route in the school after Kohaku is 'killed' he jumps out of the room with beastly speed and appears invisible to a person looking through a heat haze and even runs across the wall and tackles upside down at Akiha while she is surprised and kills her before she gets up then walks away as if nothing happened with a red moon in the background thinking 'Whatever, it's over, it's all over' or somethin' similar this was Shiki not Nanaya. So basically Shiki's biggest fear has already passed (His fear of becoming a killer).


Shiki will be able to kill Ryougi in her normal personality (Ryougi(1)[Female] or Ryougi(2)[Male]) however if Ryougi(3) comes out [Ryougi(3) is the personality that comes from Akasha (also the personality that Kokuto see the first time he meets Shiki and is also the one that takes out Araya in his bounded field)] Shiki would lose because he wouldn't be able to react to an attack that comes at him at a speed faster than a bullet. But Ryougi(1) herself doesn't even know of Ryougi(3)'s existence and her abilities are comparable to a 5th dan in kendo now compare that to an (in)complete Nanaya (even if he is not completely trained he is still a master of most martial arts and has the physique of a beast).
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby solopy567 » May 17th, 2009, 3:28 am

Isn't Ryougi[3] the only Ryougi there is right now? Touko said in one of the movies that the current Ryougi is not Ryougi[1] or [2], but a new third one.
"Sion Eltnam is no more.
All there is left is a dead apostle who has inherited the name of TATARI.
Now.....Let's begin the Bloody Second Act." - Sion TATARI
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 4:23 am

I'm pretty sure it's Ryougi[1] simply acting like Ryougi[2] she is just lonely in her own mind. She stops after the sixth movie where
Kurokiri makes her regain her memories of the night she attacked Kokuto.


Ryougi[3] is definitly different then the one Touko thinks REALLY DO NOT READ THIS SPOILER IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE SEVENTH NOVEL

Ryougi[1] after she sees Lio slicing Kokuto in the head and he 'dies' where Shiki[1] mopes around and gets slashed five times doesn't even try to fight back then kills Lio saying it was the first time she ever killed anyone but... Isn't that strange? wasn't she the one who killed Araya? Afterward she lets herself fall on the ground planning to die the police come and it turns out Kokuto only had his EYE was the thing that was slashed to it was never enough to kill. This is what happens on the EPILOGUE OF THE SEVENTH BOOK I REALLY SUGGEST YOU STOP READING HERE THIS IS A SUMMARY

A snowing day in March. Mikiya sees Ryogi Shiki standing in the street spaced out.
She says in a woman's accent, "-----It's been a while, Kokuto-kun"

This was another personality of Shiki, different from the other two. Of the two extreme personality she has, this Shiki laid right in the middle, where there is nothing there. Mikiya had actually met her for the first time in March 1995, when she was standing in the snow just like now, but the other two personality doesn't know that because they are unaware of her existence.
She asks him if he had any wish, that's the reason she appeared. But he doesn't wish for anything. Looking a little sad but satisfied, she says I knew you would say that. She asks him where does he think a personality lies in a human body. Mikiya think it's the brain, but she answers no. Brain is where the knowledge lies, and the personality lies in the body itself. She is that original personality of Ryogi Shiki. The two personality were created within her. If the two personalities are like software, she is like the hardware. Normally that true personality wouldn't carry any knowledge of itself, but the Ryogi family was able to keep that personality active. In fact this personality is what's directly connected to the root of all things. She was born being connected to the root, but normally that will die while it's in the mother's womb. However the Ryogis made it possible for her to survive with intelligence. But she didn't find any interest in having such power. Knowing everything and having everything is just boring. She at least wants to heal Mikiya's scarred eye, but he doesn't need it. She asks him if he doesn't want to feel happy, but he answers that he's already happy all the time. She thinks about how he can live an average life in a world where everyone wants to be special. If you can live your life normally without hurting anyone, then that might be the ideal way of life. But because he is ordinary, there will be no one who'll try to understand him deeply. She wonder which way of life is really lonely.

She says farewell and she'll never see him again, but takes it back saying she'll be able to see him tomorrow. Mikiya returns home by himself in the snow with his black umbrella.
Last edited by Cruor on May 17th, 2009, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 5:01 am

Ryougi> Nanaya

Ryougi can move at mach 1, doesn't melt her brain, and her eyes are more powerful. Nasu himself stated that she can fight defensively against a servant. Nasu stated that Nanaya cannot. Make of that what you will.

Quoted from here:
fuyukiwiki wrote:Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.

I made this bigger because I can't read the new default font size
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Cruor » May 17th, 2009, 5:17 am

Xanathos wrote:Ryougi> Nanaya

Ryougi can move at mach 1, doesn't melt her brain, and her eyes are more powerful. Nasu himself stated that she can fight defensively against a servant. Nasu stated that Nanaya cannot. Make of that what you will.

Quoted from here:
fuyukiwiki wrote:Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.

I made this bigger because I can't read the new default font size



Yeah, Ryougi[3] will never come out again she said it herself in the end. Regular Ryougi can't beat Nanaya who Nasu also said can kill Shirou (Fate) and Shirou (UBW). Ryougi[3] can move much faster than mach one Ryougi Shiki can throw her knife as fast as a bullet and though it was a surprise and was not expected Araya dodged it easily despite him being completely surprised it happened. A bullet moves mach 1. However when Ryougi[3] came out Araya had to react out of instinct but already had his hand cut off even before then and did not even know it happened until he looked down therefore it had to be more along the lines of mach 3ish~. I did the size cause you said you couldn't read it.


Edit I have an idea

-Why don't you hold crtl + scroll up on mouse it makes text bigger.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby shirou12 » May 17th, 2009, 5:50 am

Nanaya Shiki can also throw his knife as fast, well that is one of his killings moves.

Sorry guys, but we pertaining to the families' abilities, we already know the damn things about the two shiki's XD.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Iiyo » May 18th, 2009, 10:50 am

shirou12,

The problem with having a discussion pertaining to the families' abilities is that we don't know the first thing about them. If you want us to talk about them, that's fine and everything, but you'll have to lay out all the info you've got on them because we don't exactly have any information to work off of. We'd have to make a set of thoroughly useless (useless because there is no reason for these assumptions to be right) assumptions in order to get anywhere, and even then, we don't get anywhere.

To be honest, even discussing Ryougi Shiki vs Nanaya Shiki is somewhat pointless. The nasuverse has evolved over the course of Nasu's works and the new rules aren't quite so backwards-compatible with the old rules. Beyond that even, the nasuverse is just plain inconsistent. It has a good system, but discrepancies pop up everywhere,* and so a fully cohesive conceptualization cannot be attained. As for that interview of Nasu's, as much fun as it may be to declare he has the final word on something, that interview is just ridiculous. For one, Nasu has, for a while now, expressed his desire to retcon Kara no Kyoukai (and, in fact, wished to rewrite the story for the movie, but the director wished to tell the original story). For another, Nasu's interview responses have the air of being completely inconsistent and made up on the spot. For yet another, he just said that Shiki (3rd Personality) is weaker than a Servant. The problem? Shiki (3rd Personality) was, at the end of the story, revealed to be more or less omniscient and omnipotent.

In the most general terms, I would stick to what I've stated all along, which is that regular Ryougi Shiki with a knife can still outmatch Nanaya Shiki (Nanaya Shiki defined as Tohno Shiki with his Nanaya mode fully active, like in the fight against Akiha in the Akiha route, iirc). That's because Ryougi Shiki's stats were made out to be much more impressive than Nanaya Shiki's stats, comparing their original literature. When we compare combat abilities, I'd say they should be about even. When we compare Mystic Eyes, Ryougi Shiki is a clear winner. When we compare endurance, I'd go with Ryougi Shiki. Even if that wouldn't cut it, if Shiki ever used her sword, it would be a done match.

*Try arguing what Archer's power level is when he gets serious. Or Gilgamesh's. Or wonder about how Shiki really did manage kill Arcueid or Nero even though the are canonically much, much faster than him and therefore should've been able to kill or at least dodge him in time. Even thinking about the plot deeply enough will make you realize the plot itself doesn't make sense, like how Rin tells Shirou that the only option is to have Saber consume people's souls, which goes against her own philosophy, only to make an about face later and reveal that there was another, much better, option all along. In spite of its large amounts of detail, it's one of those things where you must take the maxim "Don't examine this too closely." to heart. The annoying tidbit is that the incredibly specific details and analyses in the nasuverse are an open invitation to examine it closely.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby shirou12 » May 19th, 2009, 4:21 am

hmmm ok i'll try to lay some information about the families' abilities, this is what i found after i search some in fuyuki wiki.

For Nanaya's this is what i found:

The Nanaya's are also said to have these sorts of eyes:
Jougan

淨眼 - Jougan
Pure eyes. The ability to see "things that normally can't be seen." The ones Kiri had were relatively too weak to be considered proper Jougan; his could see a misty rendition of the thoughts of others, but that was relatively useless.. Note that Jougan are not supposed to do what Shiki's eyes do. I'm personally guessing that the Jougan helped Shiki see death after he experienced/understood it. As Jougan are blue, the Noble Color designation ought to be the same color.
they are the ability to see that which normally cannot be seen. A somewhat weaker form of Mystic Eyes, among those who are born with special eyes these are a more common occurrence.

Sensa, Sensou - Flash sheath, Flash dash. A unique technique passed down by the Nanayas making use of the area, as in using walls and ceilings, in order to move. Sensa refers to the arms (Flash Sheath), while Sensou refers to the legs (Flash Dash). Nanaya Shiki uses this naturally, but to Shiki, this is more of a trump card. Further, Kyokushi Nanaya, Nanaya Shiki's Last Arc, is as the name suggests, the ultimate technique of the Nanayas.


To further give info: For a time, the Nanaya were considered one of the most powerful families of the Organization. Though they possessed a psychic ability in the form of Pure Eyes, what truly made them so powerful was their assassination skills and the refinement of normal human physical potential taken to the maximum level, which allowed them to perform incredible feats of athletics and acrobatics such as defying gravity to run across walls. So that their powers could be passed down to their descendants, the Nanaya maintained the purity of their bloodline by having incestuous relations between themselves.

For Ryougi's

The ability of this family is to create multiple personalities within themselves. The personalities are used to gain multiple skills (ie: one for acting normal and one for fighting). When a child is born they are given one name written two different ways in kanji. This family is apparently still active but no longer fighting demons. They are now more like the Tohno family, in that they are wealthy landowners and represent Japanese upper class. Unlike the Tohnos, however, they live in a large Japanese-style mansion surrounded by groves of bamboo.

Unfortunately i can't find some unique skills for Ryougi.

Analysis:
Most Nanaya's has jougan, we can consider that there eyes has different abilities. If we can consider a place with more walls, ceilings or any places which can be walked upon, their physical skills are much effective when fighting.

Ryougi's Special abilities is to have multiple personalities with different stats and skills. We can say, that they can be a master of most martial arts and some of them MAYBE (not sure) has jougan.

^
those are the info's i got as you requested Iiyo.

Discussing about the powers of two shikis is useless, your right about that. After all, Nasu already clear some conspiracies on both of them.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Iiyo » May 20th, 2009, 12:32 pm

Hmm. A few points here:

On the Nanaya:
First, the Nanaya do not have an explicit ability for defying gravity like FSN's Rider does. They are simply so fast that for short bursts they can move across walls and ceilings because gravity takes a little while to pull them down. The Nanaya honed it to the point where it's considered a special trait of the clan, but the ability is not as unique as the description indicates. Presumably, Ryougi Shiki could do this as well, since this ability is just pure speed.
Second, the Nanaya are experts in assassination. Therefore, they are more likely to strike when an opponent's guard is down than pursue an up-front battle.
I think it's canonically confirmed that the Nanaya commonly possess jougan.
The incest is definitely canonically confirmed. Also, ew.

On the Ryougi:
First, the idea that the personalities are split up so it's "one for acting normal and one for fighting" is just conjecture. There is no evidence of that. It's more likely that the personalities are more split up like Fate/Zero's Assassin: ie. to master various diverse skills.
Second, there is absolutely no indication that the Ryougi family possesses Pure Eyes (ie. Jougan). It's possible, but there's absolutely no indication of this. Ryougi Shiki (unlike Nanaya Shiki) did not gain her Mystic Eyes through Pure Eyes; she had them because she was connected to the void and because her body was perfectly suited to the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.
What we do know about the Ryougi through Shiki is that they are practitioners of kenjutsu (traditional Japanese swordsmanship, as opposed to modern kendo), probably practitioners of tantojutsu (roughly meaning knife fighting), and unarmed combat. As far as sword-fighters are concerned, the Ryougi are positively exceptional.
Given that it's a key trait of the Ryougi to master various different abilities, the fact that the Ryougi family is of the Samurai caste, and that they are a key family of the Demon Hunter Association, it's quite possible that the Ryougi have a history in onmyodo (Japanese spell-casting and occultism that used to be very popular with the Japanese nobility until it was banned as superstition halfway through the 19th century). The kuji-kiri on Ryougi Shiki's favored sword lends credence to this idea.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby shirou12 » May 21st, 2009, 5:17 am

actually those 4 familes are all the key in demon hunter association not just ryougi. its already known that nanayas have no defying gravity skills. but still nanayas are still in top when it talks about speed. their skill to move around the walls and ceilings because of their speed is one of their unique skills. their assassination skills is also top notch, i guess they are not fool enough to strike an opponent head on. err i am not convinced that ryougis have knowledge in Onmyouji.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Iiyo » July 12th, 2009, 9:17 pm

shirou12 wrote:Actually, those 4 familes are all key families in the Demon Hunter Association, not just the Ryougi.

Yep, the four families have been confirmed to be Nanaya, Asagami, Fujino, and Ryougi.

shirou12 wrote:It's already known that nanayas have no defying gravity skills, but still Nanayas are still in top when it talks about speed.

Certainly, the Nanaya are known for top-notch speed, but Ryougi Shiki (normal) here looks like she could field an even match with Nanaya Shiki. We don't know if her speed is an inherent ability of the clan or just herself, though.

shirou12 wrote:Their skill to move around the walls and ceilings because of their speed is one of their unique skills.

Speed is not a unique skill. Moving around walls and ceiling because of speed is therefore also not a unique skill. Don't get me wrong - I do believe that speedblitzing up walls and ceilings is a honed speciality of the Nanaya, but I just don't think it's a unique ability only the Nanaya get to have.

shirou12 wrote:Their assassination skills are also top notch; I guess they are not fool enough to strike an opponent head on.

Um, given what we know about the Nanaya, we actually see them fighting head on more than we see them assassinating people from the shadows, which is their speciality.

shirou12 wrote:Err... I am not convinced that Ryougis have knowledge in Onmyouji.

I'm not either, to be honest. There isn't anything out there that confirms it. I'm just saying it's very plausible, given everything we do know.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby HolySlayer » January 9th, 2010, 11:34 pm

Yeah, if it was tohno than he would lose, but you guys are thinking that nanaya would fight fair. I mean his specialty is to assasinate, r.shiki is stronger, but nanaya would just assassinate her. =)
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » January 10th, 2010, 2:41 am

aaaaaaaaaaaaand we're back to Nanaya will assassinate her with a stealth kill or Ryougi will overpower Nanaya in direct combat.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby Iiyo » January 10th, 2010, 7:03 am

Ryougi defeats Nanaya in direct combat, I say.

I mean, both Ryougi and Nanaya could definitely try to assassinate the other. But, they each also have a sixth sense strong enough that they would sense a stealth attack. So in the end, it boils down to direct combat anyway, no matter who tries to assassinate who.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » January 10th, 2010, 10:07 am

Iiyo wrote:I mean, both Ryougi and Nanaya could definitely try to assassinate the other.

Considering Ryougi Shiki's personality, and combat style... she'd rather face Nanaya head on than opt for a sneak attack. Like what she did with everyone she had fought, the only survivor being
Kurogiri Satsuki because he has HAX.

And no, Ryougi's lunge at Fujinon resulting in the loss of her arm is not a sneak attack. Fujinon turn at her direction because Ryougi spoke before making her move.


We also can't tell for sure if Ryougi really have the ability to avoid a Nanaya quality sneak attack.
A Nanaya-quality sneak attack was demonstrated by the not-yet-cannon Shiki Nanaya[true] archetype Shikiller as a gust of wind... but then again, the Dead Apostle who's supposed to take Nrvnqsr's seat is already dead by the time it was noticed, there's also Nanaya Kiri's stealth kills against demon-hybrids in Kagetsu Tohya, both of which are basically undetectable/silent until the target's dead/attack connects. Kishima(Melty Blood) also said that Nanaya(Melty Blood)'s talent is superior compared to his father Kiri. Thanks to that, we can assume that his stealth kills are better than his father's.


The reason is that there are no stealth kill attempts on Ryougi in the novels. (Lio's like a wild/crazed animal, Fujinon had to say "bend", etc.)
There are no attempts even made if I remember correctly.

Well, Fujyou did managed to "possess" Ryougi's arms and she didn't noticed it until they're "possessed"... although I'm not really sure if that counts, but since it was unexpected I guess it counts.
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby SirDekar » May 3rd, 2010, 6:29 am

(Sorry for the resurrection of this topic, but I've a small something to add in)

Right at the beginning of Tsukihime, Tohno cut his hospital room to bits, saying he "Traced the lines" (with a stick, or a pen if memory serves me right)
In KnK Ryougi cut a flower, a (possessed) person, and some scenery with her finger.

So, lets say Ryougi attacks first; Nanaya has a choice to either dodge or parry. If he parries, will his knife be "killed" ?
Would it turn into a fist fight?
Can Nanaya/Tohno cut with his fingertip like Ryougi?
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Re: Ryougi vs Nanaya [Spoilers]

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » May 3rd, 2010, 11:05 am

SirDekar wrote:So, lets say Ryougi attacks first; Nanaya has a choice to either dodge or parry. If he parries, will his knife be "killed" ?

Both can see the "lines". With their battle sense, the other would avoid getting his or her weapon from getting killed.

Would it turn into a fist fight?

lolwut? O_O

Can Nanaya/Tohno cut with his fingertip like Ryougi?

As long as his fingertip fits inside the "line", yes.
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