Dead Apostle number XX: Yumizuka Satsuki [Spoilers?]

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Unread postby Belzera » October 18th, 2008, 11:06 pm

NanatsuYa wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:Well... Saber lasted a very long time without getting energy fed into her. >_>;;


Wasn't that because she could regain mana by resting between the battles?

according to that Wikia, it kinda works out, but it doesn't give us a number for Excalibur Usage

Saber (with Shirou as Master): 1200~1300 units of prana
Saber?s consumption (with Shirou as Master):
Battle with no damage: 10 units of prana
Amount regained per day: 8 units of prana
Amount needed to maintain her body per day: 6 units of prana
Amount spent fighting in the first day: 250 units of prana

Where do they get these numbers from though!?
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Unread postby AlinSabel » October 18th, 2008, 11:26 pm

Sorta. Just incredibly slowly. Regardless, she carried through several high level battles without dying. :P
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Unread postby WingZero » October 19th, 2008, 1:51 am

Sorry, there's just... a lot of misunderstandings about Depletion Garden here. And some serious misassumptions.

AlinSabel has it right about Servants and magi.

First of all: There is absolutely no reason for a Servant to fall over dead (or be affected in any way, really) by Depletion Garden because they do NOT live off the prana in the ATMOSPHERE, they live off of prana from their Masters (and in Saber's case, her own reserves). In this way, that "breathing in space" analogy was working under the wrong premise since the start.

And Depletion Garden cannot suck prana out of living systems, only from the area within its effective radius (i.e. the air, etc.) (Also, where are you coming up with this "renders all magic useless"? There has to be a limit to speculation...) This would hinder certain Servants and magi, no doubt (i.e. if a Noble Phantasm / spell required prana from the atmosphere to activate
(I think Shiro said he saw Lancer sucking in prana from the atmosphere when preparing Gae Bolg, on the third day at the school)
), but this doesn't necessarily mean they're in serious trouble or at a severe disadvantage since it doesn't stop them in anyway to cast spells using their own prana reserves (or in Rin's case, toss a charged jewel).

And yes, Depletion Garden is canonical.

And no, Nanatsuya, Saber did not regain prana by
sleeping a lot. It just lowered the prana consumption to a minimum when she's sleeping. This makes the difference in cost and gain greater, and thus more sustainable. But the resting has no direct effect on the amount of prana gained (not that we know of).


Depletion Garden really isn't as great or useful as you might think it is (I blame the problem of Melty Blood giving us disillusions), since not that many mages (nay, I'd say none) appear in the Nasuverse that cast by drawing prana from the environment (Go ahead, give me one example other than Lancer. And that one is kind of iffy too since he doesn't really do it in other instances of activating Gae bolg) and it REALLY, REALLY doesn't "make Servants drop to the ground" (they're incapable of drawing prana from the environment even if they wanted to. That's why Caster had to resort to those
"gas leak incidents"
, etc.).

Hell, the Forest of Einnashe could do what Depletion Garden does just by being there.

It's only amazing in the sense that Satsuki could get a reality marble just by her potential and without any prior magical training or practice.

edit: another thing:

Still, if that stored power runs out, they're pretty screwed =P So a lasting battle would be out of the question.


Since most living systems (Magi, Servants, familiars) are incapable of drawing prana directly out of the environment anyways (at least not a significant amount in a short period of time), sucking the prana out of it doesn't REALLY make a difference. They all have enough stored energy to last A LONG TIME under normal circumstances so it doesn't make any sense to assume that as soon as DG hits the field, they'll run out of stored prana within the battle. As long as you don't try to, say, activate Excalibur (or something of the equivalent in prana usage) several times in the same battle (Actually I don't think anyone other than Dark Sakura has enough prana for that @_@), there's really no reason why you would run out of "stored power", as you say. (Servants are a special case, as I'd imagine they exhaust much more prana in battle since they require much more prana to just exist in the first place. But there' really no reason for a magus to run out of prana just from casting a few spells in battle)

But since Satsujinki isn't a magician, he will be almost unaffected by it^^


This conjecture makes even LESS sense by the "exhausting reserves" line of reasoning because as he ISN'T a magus, his prana reserves are SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than those of a magus. In any case the fight would almost certainly END with one side defeated/dead before anybody runs out of prana anyway, but that's besides the point. Depletion Garden doesn't really hinder anyone in terms of fighting, as long as they don't depend on the environment for prana (which nobody does)
Last edited by WingZero on October 19th, 2008, 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby abscess » October 19th, 2008, 2:29 am

WingZero wrote:And yes, Depletion Garden is canonical.

LOLDONGS I was wrong then :P

Wikia wrote:Regarding nature interference Magecraft mentioned before, at least for those of large-scale, activation is required the use of mana regardless of the amount of od that the magus has. In fact, is common practice among the magi to start up their spells with od and then keep then running with mana. Only small-scale spells that do not interact with the environment directly are performed entirely with od, an example of which would be Reinforcement.

Anyway, Depletion Garden may be useful when trying to counter a lare-scale magical event (a huge attack or something like that) when performed by a normal magus (those who have a "normal unit count", not like Aoko or Ciel or whatever other pepped up character there is) that uses mana, but I'm afraid that if Sacchin couldn't really defend herself, it doesn't really matter how much mana she makes dissapear, she could still lose the fight. If we pit UBW Shirou with MB Sacchin, I think Shirou could win.
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Unread postby WingZero » October 19th, 2008, 2:36 am

Yeah, that seems about right. (Can't really comment on the large scale magic event thing, not really sure or stated whether or not Depletion Garden can suck prana out of, say, a beam of concentrated prana flying through the atmosphere of the targetted area)

And hm. Based on what the Wikia and other sources have regarding thaumaturagy in Nasuverse, it seems like most spells with power would have some reliance on the atmospheric prana. It's just that we don't get to see it really, in any of Nasu's works. Depletion Garden might be more effective on magi than I had given it credit for. But honestly, it shouldn't stop them from casting spells completely.

Also, in retrospect, considering that Sacchin has GREAT magical potential; she can probably win in a war of attrition under depletion garden if she's evenly matched with a Magus (and/or another living system whose method of attack is mainly dependent on mana or odic force) in a fight. But the fact that she can't use the prana sucked out by Depletion Garden sort of puts a huge dent in its usefulness (if she could, then it would be an awesome reality marble. but alas.)

The only conclusion to make is that how well Satsuki does in a fight is far more dependent on her other abilities.
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Unread postby abscess » October 19th, 2008, 2:56 am

I was actually considering Depletion Garden more of a support ability instead of having a more direct usefulness. As for the already fired beam of prana, I think (based in nothing) that the beam, since it's prana (a more "general power source" than mana) can't be affected or, if it is, not too much, maybe because the beam could be going too fast and there is not much time for the Depletion Garden to do it's job or something, I dunno.

I was thinking more in the case of a magus wanting to fire it but being unable since he/she can't keep the magic running without mana (that is unless the magus in question has a stupidly big od unit count [Ciel, Aoko, Rin...])

WingZero wrote:The only conclusion to make is that how well Satsuki does in a fight is far more dependent on her other abilities.

Yeah, that sums it up. She could be useful as a support unit in an all out war between magi, booby trapping the area she is in and having the other magus she is working with firing at the enemy.... Hmmm, that would be a cool scene to see :P
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Unread postby WingZero » October 19th, 2008, 3:10 am

ooo, yeah, that makes more sense. And nothing says that Depletion Garden is an instantaneous and complete effect, so there might be a small amount of time needed to drain the prana (i.e. in the case of a speeding beam).

And yeah, Depletion Garden might work a lot better as a support type implement (although it still doesn't stop the target from, say, using their own prana to block the onslaught from Sacchin's ally, so the fight might last until someone runs out of prana. Likely the target. Although we don't really know how long Satsuki can keep DG going (no prana cost specification))
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Unread postby abscess » October 19th, 2008, 3:18 am

Yeah, but if, say, the magus sided with Satsuki is away from the field, he/she could fire stuff with mana, supposing that the Depletion Garden doesn't affect the prana beam too much, the enemy couldn't block for an extended time with just his/her od....

Hmm, I wonder if Depletion Garden will be shown in the remake... It would be something cool to see, but Satsuki isn't mature enough in that moment of the story to use it, and there is no need to do it since the only active magus there is Roa, and he never used magic in the original, at least not that I remember.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » October 19th, 2008, 5:38 am

If there's a Satsuki route, then I suppose it'll be introduced there. :P
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Unread postby gexer64 » October 21st, 2008, 4:09 am

Fuyuki Wiki wrote:Regarding the above mentioned nature interference, at least some large-scale (such as Roa's numerology and probably Alba's stuff) spells that work with the environment can't be cast without Mana in the atmosphere already present, even with a large amount of Od. As said before, Od is used as a starter (catalyst) to work with the Mana in the atmosphere into creating a large scale effect. Smaller scale spells such as reinforcement or anything else that doesn't work directly with the environment should be fine. Either that or once Od gets outside of the body, it's prone to fade away quickly by Mana draining effects.


Fuyuki wiki wrote: Depletion Garden- Yumizuka Satsuki's Reality Marble. As the name says, rapidly drains the Prana of the space it's expanded in. Similar to Akiha's Ryakudatsu, but Depletion Garden is affecting the world itself (as opposed to the target). Further, the withered Prana doesn't return to the user, Satsuki, but just dissipitates. A terrain type effect that could be said to be the natural enemy of beings such as those magi needing Prana for attacks or elementals needing Prana to live. On the other hand, against those organisms that are becoming removed from the world (those humans who don't really use the Prana in the atmosphere) has dramatically no effect.
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » October 21st, 2008, 6:17 am

Soo... Even though Sacchin's able to use a reality marble, it doesn't really make much of a difference in battle? That's one heckuva useful Reality Marble :(
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Unread postby Divine » October 21st, 2008, 6:34 am

Well, Depletion Garden would nullify ranged magical attacks. So, magi such as Rin would have no recourse but to resort to hand to hand combat against a vampire. Not a very good scenario.

I am unsure of whether or not Shirou's Projection magic would be prevented since while Shirou gives form to his image using magical energy, it is uncertain whether or not it is ever raw magical energy outside of his body.

I also wonder what the reality marble's effect would be on A rank magic and similarly A rank or EX rank Noble Phantasms such as Rin's jewels, Excalibur, and Ea.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » October 21st, 2008, 1:26 pm

Well if it ever happened to where Sacchin and Shirou fought. It would be who can activate thier own Reality Marble faster. It may be the first one to activate thier will have a total edge right there. Although, if we're going my MeltyBlood standards on Sacchin's Reality Marble then I don't think the whole thing would matter.

Although truth be told I'm not sure what a Reality Marble vs. Reality Marble battle would be like it that was the case... Well aside from the one in the UBW storyline I guess.
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Unread postby gexer64 » October 22nd, 2008, 2:06 am

Divine wrote:Well, Depletion Garden would nullify ranged magical attacks. So, magi such as Rin would have no recourse but to resort to hand to hand combat against a vampire. Not a very good scenario.

I am unsure of whether or not Shirou's Projection magic would be prevented since while Shirou gives form to his image using magical energy, it is uncertain whether or not it is ever raw magical energy outside of his body.

I also wonder what the reality marble's effect would be on A rank magic and similarly A rank or EX rank Noble Phantasms such as Rin's jewels, Excalibur, and Ea.


Projection no, Reinforcement yes, jewels weakened, excalibur and ea probably not.

For more information read my previous post :roll:
Last edited by gexer64 on October 22nd, 2008, 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Divine » October 22nd, 2008, 2:32 am

*Cough*

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Unread postby WingZero » October 22nd, 2008, 3:12 am

It says Fuyuki Wiki. Not Wiki. You might wanna actually go check out what Fuyuki Wiki IS before speaking dumbly about it.
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Unread postby gexer64 » October 22nd, 2008, 5:50 pm

If it's fuyuki wiki, it's right. It's a collection of all the info directly from source material. It's not public opinion.
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Unread postby AvatarofRage » October 23rd, 2008, 1:45 am

Although Depletion garden seems kinda weak in execution, I'm fairly sure that, with training, Satsuki would learn a more effective way to utilize it. Considering that Nero learnt a Reality Marble from Roa, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to imagine there's more to Depletion Garden than Satsuki knows of, as it is it's probably like UBW, since they both create a unique world around the user, but need a secondary skill to properly utilize it, like how UBW has 'all the material for projection', but if Shirou/Emiya didn't know how to do projection then all he could do is pick up the swords already lying around
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Unread postby KratosIrving » October 23rd, 2008, 2:58 am

Well, UBW doesn't require projection in order to use; it's rather the other way around in Shirou/Archers' case, since projection is a byproduct of UBW in a sense. UBW is sort of like an instantaneous projection, along with a permanent memory to be stored inside UBW.
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Unread postby kensain » October 23rd, 2008, 6:50 am

AvatarofRage wrote: Considering that Nero learnt a Reality Marble from Roa,

Nope.
Nero is his reality marble, like shiro. Roa, an epic mage, taught him a better way to control it.
Probably like Archer teaching Shiro his BW chant.

Incidentally, does anyone else think that it looks more like a mistake by instinct when sacchin deploys the garden?

Also, another idea.
Od = gaia, right?
Arc = gaia link.

So would (could?) it slow her down?
If so, because Arc > Roa > Dead, do you think it could act as a kind of bomb from a fighting game. It'd be it's only use in the story that I can imagine.
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