Is TypeMoon the hardest games to read?

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Is TypeMoon the hardest games to read?

Unread postby Raven » December 22nd, 2007, 5:07 am

Admittedly my Japanese is extremely rusty given only one year I have been studying. But one way or another, I have been able to read and somewhat understand some of the lighter Eroges, abeit painfully.

But for TypeMoon stuff it's almost impossible to me. Is it me or they tend to use Kanji for any single word that has a kanji? Other games still use a healthy a mount of hirigana with some Kanji, but Typemoon games uses Kanji so often that sometime I think I'm looking at a Chinese script!! :?
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Unread postby Message » December 22nd, 2007, 9:31 am

Nasu's writing is both famous and infamous for its rather creative use of kanji. I hear Utawarerumono had some kinky stuff as well, being set in ancient Japan and all. But overall, TYPE-MOON games are probably among the top few where reading difficulty is concerned.
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Unread postby Raven » December 22nd, 2007, 6:35 pm

I don't know a lot about this. But is there any benefit or privileges to write a lot of Kanji? My Japanese friends told me that the current normal standard is 3000 Kanjis from the old pool of around 16000. This means Hiragana is used in place of a lot old Kanji. Of course, I understand the need of using Kanji, plus when I gave him my writting he said it looks like elementary stuffs.

But again, is there any extra benefit to use an excessive amount of Kanji in term of reading like TypeMoon game except for making my head hurt (if that counts as a benefit)?
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Unread postby Silverman » December 22nd, 2007, 7:24 pm

Message wrote:Nasu's writing is both famous and infamous for its rather creative use of kanji. I hear Utawarerumono had some kinky stuff as well, being set in ancient Japan and all. But overall, TYPE-MOON games are probably among the top few where reading difficulty is concerned.

Well acutally... [utawarerumono spoiler]
Utawarerumono is in the future

But yeah, I don't think Nasu's works are for the people who are not fluent in Japanese since he uses loads of new words in hi works...
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Unread postby rubberchicken » December 23rd, 2007, 12:00 am

Nasu's writing is bad enough in English. I shudder to think what it's like in Japanese.
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Unread postby marus » December 23rd, 2007, 1:35 am

Raven wrote:But again, is there any extra benefit to use an excessive amount of Kanji in term of reading like TypeMoon game except for making my head hurt (if that counts as a benefit)?


Actually it's easier and faster to read with Kanji than with Hiragana, once you learn a healthy amount of them.

Though, Nasu seems to go a little overboard sometimes.
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Unread postby Message » December 23rd, 2007, 10:03 am

I understand that Nasu likes to invent new kanji, or use kanji in ways they're not supposed to be used, up to the point where Japanese readers start threads not about "what does this sentence mean?" but about "what does this sentence say?"...

Silverman wrote:Well acutally... [utawarerumono spoiler]
Utawarerumono is in the future

Hahaha, I had no idea. :D
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Unread postby Raven » December 26th, 2007, 1:33 am

wow, it's said that even Japanese would have trouble understand Nasu's writing and there is a website to help with that. :shock:

So ... exactly what is this creativeness that is being preferred to? Rule is rule, and words have meaning right?
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Unread postby Silverman » December 26th, 2007, 4:47 am

Raven wrote:wow, it's said that even Japanese would have trouble understand Nasu's writing and there is a website to help with that. :shock:

So ... exactly what is this creativeness that is being preferred to? Rule is rule, and words have meaning right?

Well, maybe his writing style is just using more advance Japanese, literature has levels, and maybe Nasu is more advanced than other doujin story writers.
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Unread postby Message » December 26th, 2007, 8:47 am

No, what I mean is that he literally makes up new words. I'm not sure how kanji work, but I guess it's got something to do with compound words. Ryuusoul would know.
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Unread postby Blue Gunner » December 26th, 2007, 9:03 am

Using obscure readings of characters to read how they don't normally, using old characters that aren't used anymore, making words that have meaning but aren't quite words. The Japanese versions of Marble Phantasm, Noble Phantasm and Heaven's Feel are all good examples.
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Unread postby Silverman » December 26th, 2007, 7:06 pm

Blue Gunner wrote:Using obscure readings of characters to read how they don't normally, using old characters that aren't used anymore, making words that have meaning but aren't quite words. The Japanese versions of Marble Phantasm, Noble Phantasm and Heaven's Feel are all good examples.

Marble Phantasm: 空想具現化
Noble Phantasm: 寶具
Not sure about Haven's Feel
The first two looks good to me, or is it just me?
Perhaps the first one is harder to read in Japanese... not sure about that.
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Unread postby Einherjar » December 26th, 2007, 7:37 pm

Silverman wrote:
Blue Gunner wrote:Using obscure readings of characters to read how they don't normally, using old characters that aren't used anymore, making words that have meaning but aren't quite words. The Japanese versions of Marble Phantasm, Noble Phantasm and Heaven's Feel are all good examples.

Marble Phantasm: 空想具現化
Noble Phantasm: 寶具
Not sure about Haven's Feel
The first two looks good to me, or is it just me?
Perhaps the first one is harder to read in Japanese... not sure about that.


One thing I don't understand:
Although Fatal/Fake isn't official, but as you see:
Image


Is that supposed to say "Broken Phantasm"???

壊れた幻想 = Broken Phantasm
Is this a different thing as a NP, which is 寶具??
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Unread postby Henduluin » December 26th, 2007, 8:25 pm

Note that both my knowledge of Japanese and the Nasuverse are somewhat lacking, but I'm going to guess that has to do with

Archer's ability to trace Noble Phantasms, albeit one rank lower. Therefor, they could technically be considered "broken" NPs... At least that's what common sense tells me. I doubt Nasu has even heard of that term before, so I could be way off.
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Unread postby Einherjar » December 26th, 2007, 8:50 pm

As you see, if NP is 寶具, then wouldn't BP be something like壊れた寶具???
P.S. I don't know Japanese, so don't kill me if I'm wrong.
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Unread postby WingZero » December 27th, 2007, 12:22 am

Not that I know much Japanese, but from the screenshot the last two characters mean "fantasy" in Chinese (I'll assume it means something similar in Jap) which comes close to "phantasm", by definition.

壊れた寶具 would come out to be Broken Noble Phantasm, by translations standards (that is, Hougu==Noble Phantasm)
Marble Phantasm: 空想具現化
Noble Phantasm: 寶具
Not sure about Haven's Feel


Heaven's Feel == Holy Grail War (Yes, in Kanji as well as English.)
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Unread postby Kansho » December 27th, 2007, 12:48 am

Henduluin wrote:Note that both my knowledge of Japanese and the Nasuverse are somewhat lacking, but I'm going to guess that has to do with

Archer's ability to trace Noble Phantasms, albeit one rank lower. Therefor, they could technically be considered "broken" NPs... At least that's what common sense tells me. I doubt Nasu has even heard of that term before, so I could be way off.

Broken Phantasm is the Archer skill to use Noble Phantasm as a disposable weapon and rise the rank of the legendary object in a single attack. Since Archer can recreate the weapon another time... that's not a problem.

Silverman wrote:
Blue Gunner wrote:Using obscure readings of characters to read how they don't normally, using old characters that aren't used anymore, making words that have meaning but aren't quite words. The Japanese versions of Marble Phantasm, Noble Phantasm and Heaven's Feel are all good examples.

Marble Phantasm: 空想具現化
Noble Phantasm: 寶具
Not sure about Haven's Feel
The first two looks good to me, or is it just me?
Perhaps the first one is harder to read in Japanese... not sure about that.

Kinoko had many examples...

空想具現化:
- Literal meaning: Imagination/Fantasy Materialization (or someting along the lines)
- Official T-M translation: Marble Phantasm

寶具:
- Literal meaning: Invented word... The most close is 宝具 hougu (treasure), and 法具 hougu (ritual tool)
- Official T-M translation: Noble Phantasm

聖杯戦争:
- Literal meaning: Holy Grail War or War of the Saintly/Heavenly Cup
- Official T-M translation:
Heaven's Feel (spoiler due to argumental issues)

抑止の守護者:
- Literal meaning: Balance's/control guardian.
- Official T-M translation: Counter Guardian

固有結界:
- Literal meaning: Innate Barrier
- Official T-M translation: Reality Marble.

And more... and more...
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Unread postby Ryuusoul » January 2nd, 2008, 2:38 am

Message wrote:Nasu's writing is both famous and infamous for its rather creative use of kanji. I hear Utawarerumono had some kinky stuff as well, being set in ancient Japan and all. But overall, TYPE-MOON games are probably among the top few where reading difficulty is concerned.


Compared to Tsukihime or Fate/stay night (I didn't translate F/sn, but I read it), Utawarerumono was a cake walk to translate. Heck, even Melty Blood was far easier to translate (give or take some Walachia scenes).
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Unread postby ayadew » February 27th, 2008, 11:16 am

Yeah, I can imagine Tsukihime was a real challenge, so much strange composissions of words and meanings there, even when translated.. =p
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Unread postby Yazan Kiriel » April 1st, 2008, 2:28 pm

Man, I always have to stop reading just to sit back and asset what the hell it all means. Type-Moon lingo and descriptions must not be underestimated indeed.
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