Difference between Nasuverse spells.

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Difference between Nasuverse spells.

Unread postby ShikiXNanaya » November 23rd, 2007, 7:36 pm

I've been wondering recently about the Nasuverse and how magic works. So far though I haven't gotten a clear answer so I would like to ask what is the difference between Marble Phantasm, Noble Phantasm, and Reality Marble. (And quite possibly why use the word Marble) I would like to also know if there are any other powerful magics in the Nasuverse other than these three.
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Unread postby Naota » November 23rd, 2007, 9:16 pm

Well, briefly put...

Noble Phantasm - A term exclusive to Servants summoned for the Holy Grail War in Fate/Stay Night. Their Noble Phantasm is an object (usually one, but it could be more like a pair of boots, etc.) that defines their historical/mythical identity. The same amount of secrecy is kept about a Noble Phantasm than there is with a Servant, as it more or less gives away their identity the instant it's used. As well as sometimes serving as physical weapons, they act as a kind of trump card, or special ability that's never used lightly. For example, Shiki's "Nanatsu-Yoru" knife would probably be his Noble Phantasm, assuming he was a Servant.

Reality Marble - A small area in which the contents are under the complete influence of the one summoning it, typically developed by vampires. Essentially, this is the trump card for others that a Noble Phantasm is to Servants, though I may be misinformed. The use of the word marble is probably due to the fact that any physical area affected by a Reality Marble would probably be the same distance from the summoner on all the edges - hence a sphere, bubble, or marble.

Marble Phantasm - Arcueid's Reality Marble. I'm not quite certain just what it does or how it works, but there's usually nothing left behind in its wake... at all.
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Unread postby Ryomasa » November 23rd, 2007, 9:30 pm

Well, Marble Phantasm and Reality Marble use the analogy of "finding a marble in a bag," which I'll try to explain.

A NOBLE PHANTASM is the crystallization of the historical facts and anecdotes that made an Epic Spirit famous. In other words, a NOBLE PHANTASM are the physical forms of the symbols of an Epic Spirit's life. These don't necessarily need to be weapons, they can be objects or abilities. For example, King Arthur has ALWAYS carried Excalibur, and it symbolizes his existence. Hercules is known for his twelve trials, the NOBLE PHANTASM of this legend grants him an extra twelve lives. Sasaki Kojirou is known, historically, for the Tsubame Gaeshi, and the NOBLE PHANTASM of this legend allows him to execute three strikes simultaneously. If I was to summon, say Kurosaki Ichigo from Bleach, his NOBLE PHANTASM would likely be Zangetsu, which would have an ability similar to Excalibur and Enuma Elish.

-:- -:- -:- -:- -:-

Below this line, I'll TRY to explain a Marble Phantasm and a Reality Marble.

-:- -:- -:- -:- -:-

A MARBLE PHANTASM is the ability to control the natural laws by influencing it with the user's will. In other words, it allows the user to interfere with probability, and to change things in nature according to their will. A MARBLE PHANTASM can change reality to create any naturally occurring effect. For example, a Marble Phantasm could alter reality to create a heart attack in the target. This is just speculation, but it seems to be a good example.

A REALITY MARBLE, on the other hand, is the creation of a world that obeys a set pattern of rules that are seperate from. However, there are limitations in how it is a way to create a spiritual world.

This is where the "Marble Metaphor" comes into play. When drawing one white marble in a bag of a hundred black marbles, there is only a 1% chance of drawing the one white marble.

A MARBLE PHANTASM is the ability to raise that chance to 100% and definitely pick the white one. This is nearly impossible, but it CAN be done. It can recreate anything nature allows, like creating a tornado in a blizzard, causing a tidal wave, or making a large fire, or using the atmosphere to cut apart objects.

A REALITY MARBLE, on the other hand, has the ability to turn all the marbles into white ones; this is something the world wouldn't naturally allow. However, this is the ONLY thing it can do. It can do ONE thing that the world does not normally allow; one RM could create a world where anything it dies (Nevermore), and another could cause fears to turn into physical entities (Night of Wallachia).

Does that explain it?
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Unread postby Superflonic » January 19th, 2008, 11:32 am

Ryomasa wrote:Does that explain it?


Couldn't have been done any better.
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Unread postby Cat Megex » May 23rd, 2008, 12:46 am

Naota wrote:Noble Phantasm - A term exclusive to Servants summoned for the Holy Grail War in Fate/Stay Night. Their Noble Phantasm is an object (usually one, but it could be more like a pair of boots, etc.) that defines their historical/mythical identity. The same amount of secrecy is kept about a Noble Phantasm than there is with a Servant, as it more or less gives away their identity the instant it's used. As well as sometimes serving as physical weapons, they act as a kind of trump card, or special ability that's never used lightly. For example, Shiki's "Nanatsu-Yoru" knife would probably be his Noble Phantasm, assuming he was a Servant.


Ryomasa wrote:A NOBLE PHANTASM is the crystallization of the historical facts and anecdotes that made an Epic Spirit famous. In other words, a NOBLE PHANTASM are the physical forms of the symbols of an Epic Spirit's life. These don't necessarily need to be weapons, they can be objects or abilities. For example, King Arthur has ALWAYS carried Excalibur, and it symbolizes his existence. Hercules is known for his twelve trials, the NOBLE PHANTASM of this legend grants him an extra twelve lives. Sasaki Kojirou is known, historically, for the Tsubame Gaeshi, and the NOBLE PHANTASM of this legend allows him to execute three strikes simultaneously. If I was to summon, say Kurosaki Ichigo from Bleach, his NOBLE PHANTASM would likely be Zangetsu, which would have an ability similar to Excalibur and Enuma Elish.


Kind of a large time gap since the last post here, but I thought I should add my thoughts about Shiki if he were a Servant. It seems to me that, going by what Ryomasa said, Shiki's Noble Phantasm would actually be his Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (because Shiki could use any sort of bladed object - or, for that matter, any long, thin object - in conjunction with his eyes; the only thing special about the knife is that it is a memento of his original family).
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Unread postby SeruraRenge » May 23rd, 2008, 11:17 am

Ryomasa wrote:A REALITY MARBLE, on the other hand, has the ability to turn all the marbles into white ones; this is something the world wouldn't naturally allow. However, this is the ONLY thing it can do. It can do ONE thing that the world does not normally allow; one RM could create a world where anything it dies (Nevermore), and another could cause fears to turn into physical entities (Night of Wallachia).


even though the world normally wouldn't allow a Reality Marble to exist...
doesn't Nero get away with it because his body itself IS a Reality Marble, therefore it never conflicts with the world outside of himself?
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Unread postby aldeayeah » June 2nd, 2008, 9:43 am

Ryomasa wrote:For example, a Marble Phantasm could alter reality to create a heart attack in the target. This is just speculation, but it seems to be a good example.

I don't think it's a good example.

Just like powerful magi won't generally attack each other with targeted spells, but nature-interference spells (because magi can repel external magical energy inside their bodies), it's probably much easier to manipulate the surroundings of the target in order to influence the target indirectly. Or at least, that's the way Arc uses it.

The documented usages of Marble Phantasm:

- Turning the surroundings of the target into a microscopic scale shredder that disintegrated the target (Tsukihime).
- Turning the surroundings of the target into blades that cut the target into 18 pieces (Kagetsu Tohya).
- Artificially blood-red colored Moon (Melty Blood).
- Bringing a fairyland castle into existence.
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Unread postby Inverted » June 3rd, 2008, 9:09 am

There is one more documented usage of Marble Phantasm done by Arc:
-Turning the surroundings around the target into ice in order to trap and freeze it . ( Kagetsu Tohya - Ten Ninghts of Dreams (Dawn) IIRC )
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Unread postby marus » June 4th, 2008, 3:01 am

SeruraRenge wrote:
doesn't Nero get away with it because his body itself IS a Reality Marble, therefore it never conflicts with the world outside of himself?


Nero's reality marble, Lair of the Beast King, is the ability to control and form his Chaos. He uses it to give form to his body and his beasts. If his reality marble were to deactivate, he would lose form, and likely turn into a Primordial Soup.
This next part is just my speculation, but Nero's reality marble is able to take place constantly because he isn't unleashing it's effects on the world. Because they're unnatural phenomenon, the world is constantly trying to break a reality marble in existence, so they require a large amount of mana to maintain. Because of this, they normally can remain active for only a small amount of time (normally a few minutes). However, Nero's reality marble is exacted on his Chaos, which is uninfluenced by the world, so he is able to maintain it relatively easily without interference the world.
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Unread postby Miraploy » June 4th, 2008, 12:19 pm

I think the world does try to crush Nero. Hence his great need to constantly feed.
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Unread postby marus » June 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm

His feeding is just to keep the reality marble going, but not fight the world. He only feeds at night, but his beasts still scout during the day. Even if he eats one-hundred humans every night, that wouldn't be enough to keep a reality marble active against the world for 24 hours.
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Unread postby Miraploy » June 4th, 2008, 4:12 pm

marus wrote:His feeding is just to keep the reality marble going, but not fight the world.


Huh? Isn't that the same thing? The reason why the reality marble need to be maintained is because the world is constantly trying to crush it.
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Unread postby abscess » June 4th, 2008, 9:23 pm

Miraploy wrote:
marus wrote:His feeding is just to keep the reality marble going, but not fight the world.


Huh? Isn't that the same thing? The reason why the reality marble need to be maintained is because the world is constantly trying to crush it.


TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:The nature of his being is owed to his Reality Marble, the Lair of the Beast King, which allowed him to merge with the beasts and transform his body into its present state. Because it is only being deployed within his own body and never superimposes over the external space, it is capable of avoiding the corrective impulse by the world and can be sustained almost indefinitely as long as he possesses enough energy.

From this part of a paragraph found in this link http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Nrvnqsr_Chaos I understand that the world isn't trying to destroy the guy, but that's just because Nrvnqsr's chaos is INSIDE of him, but he needs a constant supply of energy to be able to mantain that stuff inside.
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Unread postby Miraploy » June 4th, 2008, 11:47 pm

I suppose you could be right...
but...

That wiki is completely unsourced.
And the logic is flawed, his body doesn't count as 'external space?' His body isn't part of the world?
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Unread postby marus » June 5th, 2008, 12:35 am

Yup. The Chaos that forms him is uninfluenced by natural law; it's simply there.
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Unread postby abscess » June 5th, 2008, 12:37 am

Well. That wiki does say in the reference that it takes part of the "Vampire (Kinoko Nasu)" article of wikipedia and in that article in it's references say this:
References

1. ^ Type-Moon/Tsukihime Project (w), Sasakishonen (p,i). Tsukihime vol. 2, (October 2005) DrMaster Publications Inc. (75/2). ISBN 1-59796-076-4
2. ^ Melty Blood: Act Cadenza Encyclopedia, French-Bread, August 2006.


And yes, it's VERY weird why Nrvnqsr's body, or any body for that matter, is not considered as part of the World. One could say that only something that is INSIDE of ithe World or something that comes DIRECTLY from the World is part of it but I have no way of knowing whether what I say is right or wrong since I just made it up. I, too, am confused on that part.

Could chasmirror (aka Mr. Dokuhon-guy) be able to shed some light on this very matter? :wink:
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