Question and Opinion (rather Philosophical one...)

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Question and Opinion (rather Philosophical one...)

Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 7th, 2009, 3:57 am

sooo...
hear this:

At some point of my life I decided to go and ask my friend to go have fun with me and some other friends (among them a very cute girl). Unfortunatedly he said this was impossible since he, my friend, was occupied chatting with somebody else.

At that point I asked myself:
Why would somebody change something Real for something Virtual?
I mean...
It was friday.There was money, girls, party etc, yet he decided to stay.

I understand that some people doesn't want to go to a party.
it might have been a friend of his lover.
but means to be there, in front of a computer, talking with the person you thing you are talking, to "be" with him?

This forum is a place where virtual people meet other virtual people, that they can't meet in the real world, in order to talk with them about specific topics. It is useful and logical.

But!

Are enough a name and some words to recognize somebody as "Mary","Steve","Roland",Susan" or "Michael"?
Only the "mind" matters?
Isn't a body necessary anymore?

Is the share of information is the only thing the human race needs?
what a useless thing!

If the human race were to be transformed into DATA, could we, the "bodies", still call the DATA "Human race"?
What makes the human different from an animal is his ability to recognize himself as "himself", right?
So if something without a body were to think of himself as "himself", wouldn't that be the same?
In other words what this tries to say is that a human is a human as long he understands what he is.
right?
right?

WRONG!!!

In order to be a human you must have a human body and recognize yourself as a human, as "yourself"
Otherwise you would be something else: "A.I", "Talking dog", an "Alien etc. (stupid examples)

"Prof Hector Rolando" can only be "Hector Rolando" if he has a body and thinks of himself as the being that name was given.
Anyway...

If from this being an arm were to be chopped off and a new, artificial, arm were given to him, would he, "Hector Rolando" consider that arm to be a part of himself?
would he feel bad if he were to lose it again?
How long can he stay a "human" if other limbs and parts of his body were to be taken from him while some new, mechanical ones, were given to him?

If we only chop his arms, he is still a human.
If we chop then his legs, he is still a human.
If we chop then his XXXX, he is still a human.
If we take out then his organs, he is still a human.
if we only have a head, isn't he still, in a way, a human?

But...
Is only a brain enough?
it has a "body" and can recognizes himself
but...guys


Could you give up on your body? <---------- First question!!!

Normal people usually doesn't give up on it but we, forum members do.

Message

Kidwolf

Abscess

Raitei

Serialies

Xamdou

Zweiterversuch

ehh...
...the others...

All of them are virtual people. With a "body" (username+ avatar) and a mind (the person on the other side of the screen) of their own.
but
Some of them are known in other forums and other places with other names.
haven't they then changed bodies?
aren't they then somebody else?

In a way...they are.
"What matters is what is inside"
but if you hit a can and this suffers damage, wouldn't the contain of it change or be damaged too?

So...why can we...forum members change so easily of "body"?

If anybody could do this in the real life, put a different face on every day of the year and change of body any time he wanted wouldn't that make humanity cheaper? <----- second question!!!!



what is the difference then between the NET and the "reality"?
<-------third question!!!!

Is it because we feel no pain or because we know that there is a "mother load" in the "real" world that we can eliminate the virtual ones?
<---------- fourth question.

tell me guys...am I right?
last question.



________________________________________________________________________

NOW!!

let the opinions be heard!
answer in anyway you want.

here an image...only to get you into the mood.

NOTE:
This doesn't mean I am against the robotic or god or some other stuff.
I am only curious!!!!
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If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
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btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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Re: Question and Opinion (rather Philosophical one...)

Unread postby Message » March 7th, 2009, 6:57 am

zweiterversuch wrote:Normal people usually doesn't give up on it but we, forum members do.

Message
[...]

I most certainly do not give up my body when I'm just talking online... Seriously man, lighten up.
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Unread postby Raven » March 7th, 2009, 7:09 am

eh ... I don't exactly understand what's all that about. I know for sure it doesn't sound like philosophy though.
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Unread postby that one guy » March 7th, 2009, 7:25 am

I'm gonna be lazy and not read the entire thing: Maybe he just had a long day and didn't want to deal with people?
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Unread postby allanh » March 7th, 2009, 7:38 am

it's too philosophical, we need Kotomine to work out the answer for us with this one!
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Unread postby Xamdou » March 7th, 2009, 11:06 am

this sounds so moody to me :?
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby exerron » March 7th, 2009, 11:30 am

I don't have much time right now, but in defens of what zweiterversuch wrote:
In my opinion, these are philosophical questions indeed. They are about thuings witvh can't be explained right now ( I mean, with the current levele of technology) and so no objective answers can be given, so I think it's not too wild to say they are philosophical.
Not that I agree with his thoughts entirely, but I think this is an interesting topic and worths talking about it, so once I get home, I will try and share my thoughts on this as well.
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Re: Question and Opinion (rather Philosophical one...)

Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 7th, 2009, 1:09 pm

Message wrote:
zweiterversuch wrote:Normal people usually doesn't give up on it but we, forum members do.

Message
[...]

I most certainly do not give up my body when I'm just talking online... Seriously man, lighten up.


message...it was only an example...

-///-

now that I read it again...
it is somehow embarassing...
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Unread postby -Shiki- » March 7th, 2009, 2:35 pm

well..maybe its was a spur of the moment thing :)

1st question- no..we cant give up our body..its the freedom in forums to use any name you want..changing your name, your facade, doesnt change who you really are inside.

2nd question- somehow, same explaination with question 1..you can change your looks and bodies but personality stays..whats inside that matters.

3rd question- uhh...net is not reality?this is very general i guess..what is the boundary of reality?for me, i define reality as something which have importance in our daily life..online games=not reality..the net can be a reality depending on how you interpret it to be..this question is too 'open' for me.. :roll:

4th question- hmm..different people treat their created facades differently..some can just cast it away, while some cling to it..not all see their virtual character as something that can just be eliminated.

5th question- up to you..no one stops what you feel..personally, i can agree with you to a certain extant..i think that, we dont need a bodily existance to be called human..this might sound absurd, but after thinking, the body is just a vessel to allow comunication between beings..the body does the speaking, but the soul/self does the thinking and all..the term 'human' is depicting ourself..that why, having a name and avatar on the forums doesnt meant that the person there is not human..its juz a messenger i guess..a virtual shikigami.. :lol:

anyway, i'm juz stating what i think as a whole..so, there's no need to take me that seriously.. i might misinterpret the original post by zweiterversuch so, sorry in advance..but, it would be nice to see philosophical debates on humanity and the concept of human.. interesting~~
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Unread postby Zensunni » March 7th, 2009, 4:58 pm

I'll just lay out my thoughts, they probably answer all the questions the OP placed even if not in order:

No, we wouldn't for long be entertained if our only interactions were exchanging information via the internet from behind avatars (which is, in effect, anonymously)

We would lose ourselves and be unable to find a purpose to live. I strongly believe we need our bodies and a strong identity to live meaningfully.

The anonymous exchange of information we are doing here has purpose because it's just a part of our lives, and we aren't taking it that seriously. Even if you all are just messing around with me, not caring if I answer the questions you give me, or if you're some kind of AIs designed to give my posts convincing comments, I could laugh it off and say "oh well, that's teh internetz for you" and move on.

Besides there's ockham's razor - I trust you to be real people such as myself, and I trust that you are expressing your thoughts with the same honesty as me, that you are posting in the forums for similiar reasons as myself, because that's the most likely and logical conclusion. However if I was just one of millions of faceless anons floating around the interweb without a body or a social life, I wouldn't be able to draw these conclusions.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 7th, 2009, 11:31 pm

Zensunni wrote:Besides there's ockham's razor -

what is that?
btw Nice point of view.

@-shiki-

1st question- no..we cant give up our body..its the freedom in forums to use any name you want..changing your name, your facade, doesnt change who you really are inside.


2nd question- somehow, same explaination with question 1..you can change your looks and bodies but personality stays..whats inside that matters.


what is inside is what matters...

so...
if somebody really near to you happened to kill his body and somehow save his councious self by putting it in a computer or whatever. Would that dearest person still be the same person for you?

3rd question- uhh...net is not reality?this is very general i guess..what is the boundary of reality?for me, i define reality as something which have importance in our daily life..online games=not reality..the net can be a reality depending on how you interpret it to be..this question is too 'open' for me.. Rolling Eyes


yeah...I suppose it is really to open...but hey! that is what is nice about it! I die to know what a computer maniac answers to this question!

4th question- hmm..different people treat their created facades differently..some can just cast it away, while some cling to it..not all see their virtual character as something that can just be eliminated.


so acutally we can do it because we know that "we" in a way won't lose our real bodies...
heee... it sounds a little bit cruel don't you think?


by the way I believe human race needs a body.
If I were to die and lose my body and be transfered into a robotic one or be turned into data I think I would refer myself as the "leftovers of Zwtrvrsch" or a copy of him.

NOW!!!
please take no offense.
I am just trying to initiate a conversation...since I learn a lot more from it than from other things.
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Unread postby that one guy » March 7th, 2009, 11:41 pm

Ockhams Razor, if I spelled that correctly, is the idea that if two ideas are very similar, the simpler one is correct/best.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 8th, 2009, 1:28 am

that one guy wrote:Ockhams Razor, if I spelled that correctly, is the idea that if two ideas are very similar, the simpler one is correct/best.


what a weird name...

it sounds like the name of some final boss of some game...

but...

Zwtrvrsch's dex+1
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
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btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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Unread postby nobaka » March 8th, 2009, 2:25 am

tl;dr zweiterversuch has begun to discover dualism.

This is a fairly major concept in philosophy, namely the dualism (or lack thereof) of the mind and body. I suggest reading about it first. You still have epiphenomenalism to wade through.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » March 8th, 2009, 5:26 am

@ zweiterversuch

if somebody really near to you happened to kill his body and somehow save his councious self by putting it in a computer or whatever. Would that dearest person still be the same person for you?


lol..direct kill..but people have different ways to tackle different situation..maybe if the person is the only 1 who did that, and you dont regard his existance as extremely significant to you, that person is not the same..but, lets say its someone who you really love and do not want to part with..will you be happy that the 'person' lived on eventhough as a robot/computer? i myself dont know the answer but i would say yes anayway..you dont want to lose an important person to you and this is more rational if that person doent want to leave too..anyway, if this happens in the future and everyone does it, nobody will cosider it weird as it assimilated into society..

yeah...I suppose it is really to open...but hey! that is what is nice about it! I die to know what a computer maniac answers to this question!


i leave that to the maniacs then :lol:

so acutally we can do it because we know that "we" in a way won't lose our real bodies...
heee... it sounds a little bit cruel don't you think?


maybe it sounds cruel, but its the truth..a persona you put up as 'face' to either online comunity or reality is part of you..you can discard it, but you can never be in a state of nothingness..its how we face life and also how we react..when we know the risk, its easier to just jump into something..right?we know we wont be affected, at least physically so thats why some people does seem cruel.. :)

by the way I believe human race needs a body.
If I were to die and lose my body and be transfered into a robotic one or be turned into data I think I would refer myself as the "leftovers of Zwtrvrsch" or a copy of him.


this i support..human is defined as who we are right now..people tend to recognise human by appearance..this is the general view of people..
maybe a day will come where we can just swith our whole consciousness into a robot or a 'structure' which resembles a human to continue living..though not all will opt for it :P

I am just trying to initiate a conversation...since I learn a lot more from it than from other things.

well..me too.. :lol: conversation like this is rare with my friends..
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » March 11th, 2009, 8:25 pm

nobaka wrote:tl;dr zweiterversuch has begun to discover dualism.

This is a fairly major concept in philosophy, namely the dualism (or lack thereof) of the mind and body. I suggest reading about it first. You still have epiphenomenalism to wade through.



... NOBAKA casts "CONFUSION"


Zwtr can't reply.

epiphenomenalism...mmm...
lets take a closer look...

epi = on the surface
phenomenalism= ... has something to do with phenomens...

soooo lets wiki' it


wikipedia wrote:In philosophy of mind, epiphenomenalism, also known as 'Type-E Dualism' is a view according to which some or all mental states are mere epiphenomena (side-effects or by-products) of physical states of the world. Thus, epiphenomenalism denies that the mind (as in its states, not its processing) has any causal influence on the body or any other part of the physical world: while mental states are caused by physical states, mental states do not have any causal influence on physical states. Some versions of epiphenomenalism claim that all mental states are causally inert, while others claim that only some mental states are causally inert. The latter version often claims that only those types of mental states that are especially difficult to account for scientifically are epiphenomenal, such as qualitative mental states (e.g., the sensation of pain).


and that!
...
....
was just the beginning...

now...lets see what "dualism" means...

wikipedia wrote:Dualism denotes a state of two parts. The word's origin is the Latin duo, "two" . The term 'dualism' was originally coined to denote co-eternal binary opposition, a meaning that is preserved in metaphysical and philosophical duality discourse but has been diluted in general usage.


so... the dilema of mind and body. ...
come to think of it...it isn't a new question...it is a very old one but only seen from a diferent point of view...

mmm

I hate it when my threads die in such a lame way...

I will be back!!!
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
Try it out, no compromise!
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btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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