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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 6:42 pm

Atriel wrote:Communism. An utopia, the idea is perfect (the little i know about it at least). The problem is the people. Then for the people to work with this, they have to become drones. (As in, your goals are = Get married > Fuck and get kids > Send them to school and raise them to do the same > Die. And as i saw a couple of weeks ago; Repeat after me: I am Free)



Communism in practice doesn't work.
The idea of technology is that you will be relieved of working, our knowledge will help us.
Currently, all these ideas are supressed. For example oil companies which are dominant are suppressing alternative ways of fuel. This is obvious truth.

We will not be mindless, that is what you are teached. We've never experienced total freedom.
Can you imagine giving something that you've made to someone, without feeling that you've lost time and resources making it, i.e you want something back (money)? This is only possible if we have an abundance of resources, which we don't, because such initiatives are suppressed.

Atriel wrote:You see, ayadew. Not everyone thinks that.


Indeed.
But free will is the definition of the 3rd density which we live in. Free will and scepticism. But we cannot always use our free will, because we are bound by money. We need that to survive, that's what we're taught.
In a world of love you could truly use your free will.

If you deny that we are spiritual I implore you to explore more. It's an undeniable truth in my reality, a fact which I hope makes you interested. I don't want to implore on your free will.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 6:48 pm

Mkilbride wrote:It's impossible to remove the money system after we've used it for so long. Spices in old trades were a form of currency, silver, gold, ect. All that is happening now is it's more professional and constant.

Human greed is inherent, people desire to want more and more, and most of these people don't have enough personal morals to restrain themselves. There will always be rich and there will always be poor. In the US right now, 90% of the wealth belongs to 1% of the population. You're right that the US is going down, unless Obama can really perform miracles, no matter what he does, the USA is finished. It's my country, and I'm not to fond of it, but still, it's better to live here than most places.


The mere idea that it is possible to remove the currency system is laughable. I do not claim to be intelligent, but I think from any point of view, there will always be some shape or form of currency in the world. Communism looks good on paper, but in practice, it cannot be done to human greed.


Greed inherent? It's inherent because we are taught that by tradition, by the society we've created for ourselves!
We are far more aware now, these old ways are useless. We don't need trade to survive, since we dominate the whole planet as a race. It's a rest from old ways where the strong survives.

Claiming that the monetary system is set in stone is pure cynicism, you might as well give up on humanity's future.
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Unread postby Atriel » November 28th, 2008, 8:35 pm

If you may be more explicit on what you mean by spiritual, i can take a better look at your point.

When you say spiritual what first comes to my mind is "soul". I can't really say more until i have a firm grip on what you mean.

The idea of technology is that you will be relieved of working, our knowledge will help us.


I think i'm getting it better now. So you mean technology doing everything and we doing whatever we want? Of course, that would mean that we first need said technology and then use it worlwide which translates into shitload of money invested.

I may be wrong, but what you say is: Use the money to later get rid of it? Or something among those lines.

Just so you know, anything out of the common line can catch my eye. So yeah, go ahead and tell me.
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Unread postby abscess » November 28th, 2008, 9:12 pm

Wooah..... This discussion is getting a little weird, but is very interesting to me.
I would also like to see how you envision this "world of love" you mention so frequently, Ayadew.
- Education-wise, how would it be? Not only "every kid will be able to get into college!" or something along those lines, please. What will you teach them? Will science be the center of it? Will social sciences be it? Will it be art? Spiritual things (whatever they are)? What are these spiritual things? Why would you choose science, or spiritual education or whatever that above everything else?

- What is it that this society strive for? Let's not say "everyone wants to be happy!", because we already are there. We all want to be "happy", how we want it will differ from the rest of us. Someone may be hapy being alone, someone may be happy with a family, other may be happy working his/her ass off for the greater good of society, another may find happiness in wanting to destroy society itself. You have to ask yourself, what is right and what is wrong? What would be right and wrong in a society will always leave some people behind, that is only because we are all different, you can't pack everyone in a group and say everything is alright.

- Economy, because there always be one. Even people in the stone age had an economy: "Exhange this pelt for those pretty stones youv'e got", "I'll look for you if you look for me later", etc, etc. I agree, there will always be some kind of currency. Money as we know it is only a representation of the riches of our contry each of us have (supposedly), now that the idea is globalized we can exhange easier with men and women from other placed of the world, but currency isn't something we created, we only shaped it. We want something in exchange of something else, maybe it will be something small as saying "I only want to be loved back by this person" or "I wish to be accepted into Heaven" and that's fine, but that is currency in itself.

- Technological advances: What are they, really? You speak of them, but I really don't have a clear image of them. Could you explain them further what you understand by technology?

I don't want to say to you (Ayadew) that you are wrong. I think that most people will say everyone wants to be happy and free, but you have to think on what you think what happiness and freedom really are. For example: I still don't know what freedom is exactly. I'm told that we are free to do what we want, that's why I can hang in this forum and yap and yap all day long about petty stuff such as videogames or discuss something interesting as to what this supposed freedom really is. But I have to also do things I don't enjoy, such as study harder, work harder, getting up early, etc, etc. I can't strive for an acceptable place in society if all I do is feed myself and sleep all day. Is that right or wrong? does that give me the level of freedom I want? You have to develop that idea further.

I enjoy talking about this, so I hope you don't get discouraged because of all the comments that could probably seem a little negative and stop posting here. Cheers.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 9:37 pm

Atriel wrote:If you may be more explicit on what you mean by spiritual, i can take a better look at your point.

When you say spiritual what first comes to my mind is "soul". I can't really say more until i have a firm grip on what you mean.

The idea of technology is that you will be relieved of working, our knowledge will help us.


I think i'm getting it better now. So you mean technology doing everything and we doing whatever we want? Of course, that would mean that we first need said technology and then use it worlwide which translates into shitload of money invested.

I may be wrong, but what you say is: Use the money to later get rid of it? Or something among those lines.

Just so you know, anything out of the common line can catch my eye. So yeah, go ahead and tell me.


No, spiritual is esoteric.
It's the world that's inside you, which is equal or greater to the external one, the main purpose of exploring your inner self is to reach your Higher Self, which is the accumulated experiences of all your past reincarnations.
You can get in contact with your true self by many different means.... You can actually even feel it in a normal state of mind, that is intuition which we have all experienced at some time. That's the best proof I can give you. Please try to explain intuition in any other way.

Well, if we can focus on learning instead of exploiting the world, we can create a great world, filled with technology that can do all our work. There we can focus on loving.
We cannot do this with a monetary system because it's focused on exploiting and encourages greed.

This system takes us further away from our true selves, which is oneness. We all know this is true. Money cannot give you the feeling of oneness, the feeling of belonging to something greater. This is the best feeling there is, and it represents all things in the universe.
Look at matter, for example. It strives for oneness, clumping together into the big spheres we call planets and stars.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 9:51 pm

abscess wrote:Wooah..... This discussion is getting a little weird, but is very interesting to me.
I would also like to see how you envision this "world of love" you mention so frequently, Ayadew.
- Education-wise, how would it be? Not only "every kid will be able to get into college!" or something along those lines, please. What will you teach them? Will science be the center of it? Will social sciences be it? Will it be art? Spiritual things (whatever they are)? What are these spiritual things? Why would you choose science, or spiritual education or whatever that above everything else?

- What is it that this society strive for? Let's not say "everyone wants to be happy!", because we already are there. We all want to be "happy", how we want it will differ from the rest of us. Someone may be hapy being alone, someone may be happy with a family, other may be happy working his/her ass off for the greater good of society, another may find happiness in wanting to destroy society itself. You have to ask yourself, what is right and what is wrong? What would be right and wrong in a society will always leave some people behind, that is only because we are all different, you can't pack everyone in a group and say everything is alright.

- Economy, because there always be one. Even people in the stone age had an economy: "Exhange this pelt for those pretty stones youv'e got", "I'll look for you if you look for me later", etc, etc. I agree, there will always be some kind of currency. Money as we know it is only a representation of the riches of our contry each of us have (supposedly), now that the idea is globalized we can exhange easier with men and women from other placed of the world, but currency isn't something we created, we only shaped it. We want something in exchange of something else, maybe it will be something small as saying "I only want to be loved back by this person" or "I wish to be accepted into Heaven" and that's fine, but that is currency in itself.

- Technological advances: What are they, really? You speak of them, but I really don't have a clear image of them. Could you explain them further what you understand by technology?

I don't want to say to you (Ayadew) that you are wrong. I think that most people will say everyone wants to be happy and free, but you have to think on what you think what happiness and freedom really are. For example: I still don't know what freedom is exactly. I'm told that we are free to do what we want, that's why I can hang in this forum and yap and yap all day long about petty stuff such as videogames or discuss something interesting as to what this supposed freedom really is. But I have to also do things I don't enjoy, such as study harder, work harder, getting up early, etc, etc. I can't strive for an acceptable place in society if all I do is feed myself and sleep all day. Is that right or wrong? does that give me the level of freedom I want? You have to develop that idea further.

I enjoy talking about this, so I hope you don't get discouraged because of all the comments that could probably seem a little negative and stop posting here. Cheers.


First we must realise that the subject of "happy" isn't so subjective as you might think. The greatest happiness is oneness (unconditional love), so we should strive for that. But we are fed misinformation, trapped in the hamster wheels of the monetary system:
It gives us meaning in life:
Go to work
Eat
Sleep
Some are fine with this. It's what the movie The Matrix tried to say: Some people are so hopelessly dependant on the system (Matrix), it's easy given meaning in life that they defend it with all they got (Don't want to be freed). But they're never satisfied with it.

We are not happy. This is a destructive world. If you walked into the world, which I recommend you to do, you'll see SO much hate, suffering and poverty.
You walk out on the streets in the night. You are afraid of the hate others have created, without their own intention to begin with.

This society is a FAILURE only surpassed by the epic failure-fact that we built it ourselves, for ourselves.
It's a direct result from past societies which knew nothing, that did their best to build something workable. It was a good concept for a beginning, but it doesn't work on a global scale.
Currently, we all influence eachother. We're just that many people that all changes are spread like chockwaves to everyone.

Answered a little on how the society should be built in previous post.


The idea is perfect, but I'm not very good at describing it yet. There's many axioms about life to realise before one can appreciate the fullness of the idea of oneness. Ironically, this idea has been known by spiritual teachers for thousands of years. It's only now that it's realisable.

We are never free as long as society try to control us, manipulating us.

No human is inherently evil. If you do not believe this you cannot understand what I say.
We are taught from the beginning that we must be greedy to survive - it's so brutally programmed into us that it takes much will to break lose from this train of thinking.
The world is built that way currently. Why do you think nationalists even exists? Because they're taught to.
They're not free to realise that Their country is the world.

Economy isn't the base of the world, it's created by greed. Greed is created by uncertainty and fear of other people. Uncertainty is growing less every day, as more and more people are exploring their esoteric sides (yes, this happening).
It's actually a direct result of me telling you all this, because I am too encouraged to explore my inner self. And I am encouraging you too now.


The more you educate yourself
The more you understand
The more you realise you've been lied to

Education is the key to this. Educate yourself of both your inner self and of the horrible truth of the world.
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » November 28th, 2008, 10:18 pm

WOW....
The last ones were incredibly long.
http://visualnoveldai.com/
If you want to create your own visual novel go there!
Try it out, no compromise!
8 inches in a week!

btw Princess Tutu is still Awesome!!!
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 28th, 2008, 10:20 pm

these gentlemen and ladies are debating. they are presenting their views in a logical format. of course it'd be long.

@Ayadew
however, isn't happiness supposed to be something that exists within you? if it exists within the person, how could it NOT be subjective? just a little confused on that point there. since everything that you know is formed from your perception, everything in life and reality is subjective. the apple in front of you (metaphoric apple, it might or might not actually be there) is there because you sense it and your brain accepts what your senses are telling it. you believe yourself to be happy because your brain accepts that specific emotion as happiness. so how can it not be subjective?
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Unread postby abscess » November 28th, 2008, 11:00 pm

ayadew wrote:If you walked into the world, which I recommend you to do, you'll see SO much hate, suffering and poverty.

Oh, I see that everyday, alright. I've been mugged, I've seen a friend crawl on the floor feeling like shit after smoking who knows how many joints, I've seen another friend been stabbed in the leg, I've been harrassed by cops and seen numerous people drugged as hell with faces that couldn't even show an expression. Not to mention the people, old people and small children alike, walk the streets without shoes or proper clothing asking for money and scavanging whatever they can inside a trash can in search of something edible. I've personally seen almost daily how gruesome this world is and I still disagree with some of the things you say.

That "oneness" that you mention isn't achevable today. Supposing that the idea is "perfect", which is not, the differences between societies are incredibly great to be surpassed in this generation, or even in the next or the one following the next one. It isn't doable. As Zwei (I think) mentioned earlier, the majority of the countries in this world are in a state of chaos and can't even be considered capable of striving for that idea. Look Latinamerica? The FARC are terrorists group that initially followed an ideal of communism or socialism, but then it deformed into mere terrorists groupd with bonds with narcotrafic groups. There are other countries that may very well have an armed revolution start in the next 10 to 15 years or the country could end up much worse than it is right now. Look at Africa, the state of affairs is even worse there. Let's not even tak about education right now, how many children eat there everyday? How many wars are fought there daily? How is it that that people do to survive? not live, to survive. What is their primary economy right now? Blood daimonds, iron, manganese, wood... Right now they can only exploit what they have. They are not great ports of trade, neither have enough education to sell technology developed there. They can't compete with the global market.

ayadew wrote:It was a good concept for a beginning, but it doesn't work on a global scale.

I agree completely. In fact, I've just given an explanaiton in how right you are. But that also means that we, the humanity as a whole, cannot strive for that "oneness" you mention. It's just not doable right now nor in the near future.

Trying to envision a future scenario where, somehow, everyone is capable of being fed everyday and have "enough education" (how much is enough is subjective, I'll leave at that), in this scenario our descendants are capable of "striving for oneness", how do you strive for that? what do you do? do you meditate? do you participate in countless orgies? do you look for "that special one"? What else is there to do? Is that really enough to make my descendants feel "complete"? The look for happiness is really that subjective.

[quote=NonExistence]your brain accepts what your senses are telling it. you believe yourself to be happy because your brain accepts that specific emotion as happiness. so how can it not be subjective?[/quote]
What he says is true. In the end we are all a bunch of matter, chemical elements with somewhat of a specific order functioning following the laws of nature, but how that bunch of atoms called brain work differs from one another. Take the people that suffer from hallucinations as an example. They are sure they saw someone walk in front of them, they can probably remember that person's face, they could have heard that person's voice and maybe they could have touched them too. But that is all false. Their brains aren't working properly, thus they sense something that is not real, that is not there and probably never existed to begin with. The same applides to "happinness", it is just a concept that differs from you to me, from country to country, from scoiety to society, from era to another era. We are different, what is happy for me may not be for you too. That "unconditional love" or "oneness" is something that may be incomprehensible to me or to somebody else, because I understand it differently and I feel different about it. My bunch of condensed matter called a brain may percieve another stimullus as happinnes than what yours does. In fact, I don't see the connection between "oneness" and "unconditional love" to begin with.

ayadew wrote:No human is inherently evil. If you do not believe this you cannot understand what I say.
We are taught from the beginning that we must be greedy to survive - it's so brutally programmed into us that it takes much will to break lose from this train of thinking.
The world is built that way currently. Why do you think nationalists even exists? Because they're taught to.

This only further proves my point. The nationalists may find their happiness in living for their country, dying for it and rising their children towards that same protocol. It's their happiness. Can you say that it is flawed or wrong? It is for me, but is it for you? Is it to the random user roaming the net? is it to your parents? to mine? to that person walking in front of your house? It is, after all, relative

ayadew wrote:Economy isn't the base of the world, it's created by greed. Greed is created by uncertainty and fear of other people.
I don't see how economy creates fear and hatred. It is one of the paths that it can take, yes, but it's not a natural path. As you say, and I agree, there is no human inherently evil, economy by itself isn't evil. It's a system created by humans, it is expected to have flaws.

And I really, really, really fail to see how esoteric mumbo-jumbo could help humanity develop. Please, explain about that.

P.S: Just for the record, I don't agree with the current economic system the world has right now. It sucks baaaad. Example is the global crisis we are at. It's human made, created because of debt. If there wasn't an economic system like this, we could ignore it and move one. If the concept of debt wasn't like the one we currently have (interests: if you don't pay me in time you have to pay me more later) we wouldn't be in this shithole.
Last edited by abscess on November 28th, 2008, 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 11:01 pm

NonExistence wrote:these gentlemen and ladies are debating. they are presenting their views in a logical format. of course it'd be long.

@Ayadew
however, isn't happiness supposed to be something that exists within you? if it exists within the person, how could it NOT be subjective? just a little confused on that point there. since everything that you know is formed from your perception, everything in life and reality is subjective. the apple in front of you (metaphoric apple, it might or might not actually be there) is there because you sense it and your brain accepts what your senses are telling it. you believe yourself to be happy because your brain accepts that specific emotion as happiness. so how can it not be subjective?


Everything is indeed subjective, except the oneness, for me. It's the final and complete happiness. You probably inherently know this is true. All other things are subjective, as the great thinkers has always said: "Nothing is known."

This is the closest to the Absolute Truth I've found in life, that which we all search for.
It's not undeniable, I can agree with that. All things can be denied, because that is the result of our free will. You can think all things are subjective, which I almost do. I was(maybe is) the most cynical person I've ever met. Mostly because I view all things, indiscriminately, objectively.

But everything I've found within myself points to oneness, all I've found outside myself points to this also.

It's rather impossible to deny this fact... and it's the only thing I actually believe in. Because we have to believe in something, something that defines our reality that we can brace ourselves against in the currents and chaos of this life.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 11:15 pm

I do not know how abscess. I do not have the technology or wisdom or information.
But I believe to have found something that is not relative, that can be the base for this.

It's good we agree, that we're just talking about the same thing in different views.

So:
We can discuss all subjective things for all eternity, so we must find something absolute.
Read my recent post for a more general answer to your questions.

For the esoteric mumbo-jumbo, it's not explainable because there is no science on it. There is no research on it, because there is no money to be gained on it.
I have no way to put it to words, no "occult" algorithms. Please explore thought.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 11:23 pm

The connection between unconditional love and oneness is that it's the same thing.
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 28th, 2008, 11:24 pm

thought exploration: how do you know if something's... absolute... if everything is subjective? including other people sharing their thoughts with you? just entertaining the possibility.
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Unread postby ayadew » November 28th, 2008, 11:28 pm

NonExistence wrote:thought exploration: how do you know if something's... absolute... if everything is subjective? including other people sharing their thoughts with you? just entertaining the possibility.


I cannot deny that everything is subjective. For the longest time I didn't believe in that there was any absolute truth, because all can be denied.
I still do... but my whole being, and all my intuition, all I've learned about life itself points to that Oneness is the path. It's so strong that I'd bet my existence on it.
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Unread postby abscess » November 29th, 2008, 12:30 am

ayadew wrote:The connection between unconditional love and oneness is that it's the same thing.

Okay... we are going in cirlces now. How is it that "oneness" and "unconditional love" are the same thing? Explain why is it so.

ayadew wrote:It's so strong that I'd bet my existence on it.

And so would do a lot of other people about their own views of the world. I love examples, so I'll go with some more: The Inquisiton: Perhaps not everyone, but the main bulk believed that they hunted percieved heretics for the greater good of mankind. Soviet Russia: Though the idea is pretty and appeals to me, how they executed it in the end (Stalin being the great example) has made a lot of people just scrap the whole idea. Even so, it began with wanting to do something good for the working class and not the very few people that kept most of the riches. Globalization: It is pretty to say that you can import and export products to the global market, but it is not so if you just can't compete. Again, the idea looks good, but the execution is flawed and it ends not looking so great... Still, there are people willing to fight, kill and/or die for what they believe in (french revolution is a good example).

What is it that makes your idea so different from the other ones?
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 29th, 2008, 12:35 am

abscess has a point there (well actually, multiple points there). not to mention that abscess has examples to back up the claim. which is where you, ayadew, has been outdone in.
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Unread postby Atriel » November 29th, 2008, 6:02 am

Oh... then this can't really move. You may have the idea as you say but if you cannot convey it properly...

In regards to some things you pointed out. I don't consider myself to be free. I don't listen to society. I don't trust religions and books & science i only trust to some extent. However, since i'm living without harming society i have no problems... yet.

In any case, i'm willing to listen to what you say. Simply because i'm interested since i can't support your ideas while i can't quite grasp them at all. Also i'm a bit stupidified at the moment, so maybe everything has been said but i have yet to understand it and i'm too lazy to reread right at this moment :P
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 29th, 2008, 6:05 am

i'll sum it up to this point (to the best of my knowledge, correct if necessary, which it probably will be): it's the age-long argument of whether or not unconditional love is the true happiness. and why. which then morphed into whether or not you can prove that it is despite the fact that you know nothing (yours truly takes the blame for that). which then became why abscess' arguments are stronger than ayadew's. to which we have yet to see a response. confused yet?

EDIT: oh, and also, this will likely go on and on until we realize that this is one of those debates where the only real possible solution is to agree to disagree, since it's pretty much just an argument where you're trying to impose your views on the other person while the other person's trying to do the same. which is why i say: since you can't know anything anyways, why not just live according to the way you believe is right since that other person might just be a figment of your imagination? like how i could be a figment of yours. ("you" meaning anyone reading this)
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Unread postby abscess » November 29th, 2008, 6:16 am

NonExistence wrote:i'll sum it up to this point (to the best of my knowledge, correct if necessary, which it probably will be): it's the age-long argument of whether or not unconditional love is the true happiness. and why. which then morphed into whether or not you can prove that it is despite the fact that you know nothing (yours truly takes the blame for that). which then became why abscess' arguments are stronger than ayadew's. to which we have yet to see a response. confused yet?

EDIT: oh, and also, this will likely go on and on until we realize that this is one of those debates where the only real possible solution is to agree to disagree, since it's pretty much just an argument where you're trying to impose your views on the other person while the other person's trying to do the same. which is why i say: since you can't know anything anyways, why not just live according to the way you believe is right since that other person might just be a figment of your imagination? like how i could be a figment of yours. ("you" meaning anyone reading this)

....
Hmm... you make it kinda sound like I'm an ass and I wanna own someone else.... :?
It is not so. I only want to point some stuff that I percieve as mistakes and pose my questions. I am waiting for an answer, because I truly am interested in how he (it is a he, right?) see sthings, how and why. Am I odd? Yeah, I think I am. I've been told that numerous times, but never really cared about that.

It is true that this debate has a huge probability in going on and on and on and on..... and on and on.... and on... but I don't want that. I'd like this to continues some more, but that depends on ayadew. Understanding stuff I don't get is sometimes interesting to me until I know enough to make an idea or get really disinterested in it.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 29th, 2008, 6:20 am

abscess wrote:
NonExistence wrote:i'll sum it up to this point (to the best of my knowledge, correct if necessary, which it probably will be): it's the age-long argument of whether or not unconditional love is the true happiness. and why. which then morphed into whether or not you can prove that it is despite the fact that you know nothing (yours truly takes the blame for that). which then became why abscess' arguments are stronger than ayadew's. to which we have yet to see a response. confused yet?

EDIT: oh, and also, this will likely go on and on until we realize that this is one of those debates where the only real possible solution is to agree to disagree, since it's pretty much just an argument where you're trying to impose your views on the other person while the other person's trying to do the same. which is why i say: since you can't know anything anyways, why not just live according to the way you believe is right since that other person might just be a figment of your imagination? like how i could be a figment of yours. ("you" meaning anyone reading this)

....
Hmm... you make it kinda sound like I'm an ass and I wanna own someone else.... :?
It is not so. I only want to point some stuff that I percieve as mistakes and pose my questions. I am waiting for an answer, because I truly am interested in how he (it is a he, right?) see sthings, how and why. Am I odd? Yeah, I think I am. I've been told that numerous times, but never really cared about that.

It is true that this debate has a huge probability in going on and on and on and on..... and on and on.... and on... but I don't want that. I'd like this to continues some more, but that depends on ayadew. Understanding stuff I don't get is sometimes interesting to me until I know enough to make an idea or get really disinterested in it.


i apologize if it sounded like that. i only meant that this argument is basically both of you asserting your views. only that it counters the other person's. and you are repeatedly asserting them despite them countering the other person's.

and ayadew's PoV isn't hard to understand. if the fact that the people around you are built from your perception isn't taken into effect, then i can easily see how one can come to the conclusion that ayadew has.
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