When did you realize that eroge is not a cheap pr0n?

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When did you realize that eroge is not a cheap pr0n?

Unread postby lolipedofin » November 12th, 2008, 8:49 am

Like the title said, I'm sure back in the days, when u still use the word hentai to address anything pornographic with anime character, you thought that eroge is no different, just a cheap pr0n which sad guys jack off to... When did your opinion change? if ever?? or did you from beginning take eroge as a great literary piece??
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Unread postby Message » November 12th, 2008, 8:56 am

Don't you mean, "when did you realize that eroge was just cheap pr0n"? o_O
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Unread postby lolipedofin » November 12th, 2008, 9:12 am

Just curious about this, and since no thread about this made yet, decided to make one...

For me it was after watching Shuffle!.

After watching the anime, and impressed by it... although the latter part of it kinda sucks, the anime overall still left quite a good impression on me. What struck me is that when i read an article in an anime magazine, "This anime, an adaptation from a hentai game of same name..." I was, "you gotta be f***in kidding me?!"

It was actually quite shocking and incomprehensible revelation for me at that time... quite normal though, since it was only the 2nd harem type anime i watched other than Ai Yori Aoshi. Back then, my only scope was shonen and seinen anime/manga.... I did play some eroge before... yups! I'm one of those sad guys... not that i jacked off to them (Yosh, anyone believe me please raise their hand!!). But most of those game are the english commercialized one, cheap nonsensical stuffs like Snow Drop, Virgin Roster, Transfer Student... I did played Kana Little Sister though, i was kinda surprised at first due to it's long, long story, and lack of ero-stuffs, which kinda weird for me back then.. in the end it became the first eroge i really like, but i thought that it was the one and only....

When i know there's such title like Shuffle, able to spawn mainstream anime and manga adaptation, becaming a brand on it's own... It was kinda surprising.

I remember when i told this to a friend and then he recommend me to watch Fate/Stay Night, he said that it was also an adaptation from eroge. Which i kinda doubt when i checked the homepage of F/SN. Much less after I watched the anime... I liked it, but i just can't begin to imagine how this kind of story be spawned from an eroge ?! I mean, when you think about it, Shuffle!'s story does feel like a carbon copy of an eroge... but F/SN?? How??!! Even more so when i checked F/SN page at wiki... full of character's class and stats, i was for sure thought that this is an RPG... even when the genre is clearly stated as 18+ ; eroge...

Well, of course after i finished playing Fate route, translated by "you know who", I found that it is an eroge... And after that, completely changed my view on this genre... became addicted to it as well. :lol:


Well, that's my story... what do you think? (If there's actually someone that read those whole thing... maybe it was a 'tad bit' too long i guess? :) )
How about you?
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Unread postby lolipedofin » November 12th, 2008, 9:16 am

Message wrote:Don't you mean, "when did you realize that eroge was just cheap pr0n"? o_O


Oh well... kinda explain about you a lot, Message... Xp

lolol.
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Unread postby X-Calibar » November 12th, 2008, 6:05 pm

Well first off eroge is not cheap :P Especially the import kind...
And secondly the H in eroge is just the sharpness of the blade. Even if it lacks that sharpness, I still admire the craftmanship that went into creating the blade, the hilt, etc...

I got into the "all-ages" visual novels first, Phantom of Inferno in particular... [with no knowledge that it was originally eroge]. But, after Hirameki's titles I wanted more, discovered Planetarian, F/SN, Utawarerumono... Yume Miru Kusuri and X-Change Alternative caught me on a graphical style that convinced me to try PP titles... and Edelweiss I ignored until I learnt it wasn't just a sex romp...

Basically I enjoy the interactive stories. Books are great, but add in music, voices, and artwork and I'm loving it. The H part is more of a curiosity for me... I've yet to desire to buy a title based simply on sexual desire :P Story is everything! [H is just icing if done right~]
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Unread postby Atriel » November 12th, 2008, 7:12 pm

When i read Tsukihime.

Oh and X-change! (Not).

But yeah, aren't most eroges cheap pr0n?
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Unread postby Thalnos » November 12th, 2008, 7:29 pm

When I realized it was expensive porn. Ah Bible Black....good times man, good times. My first end was the one where you go crazy while fucking the blond girl who is pregnant with like...3 dude's kids. Good times indeed.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 12th, 2008, 8:21 pm

Bible Black to me, was just a sad excuse for a VN.

Well I had played True Love 98, Critical Point, DYLHB2. I think at around DYLHB2, when I got one of the endings, I began thinking "Whoa, what's this, this is a happy ending, that actually makes me feel good?"

Then Tsukihime came. I had no idea, I was told it was an Eroge and that was all I needed to know. So I come here, and behold, you had just released the patch, a few days BEFORE I had heard about it.

So I start playing...and see him cut the walls and bed thing, and I'm like OH SH*T! lol. So then when I see Aoko, I'm expecting something to happen, this being an Eroge n all. Nothing does, getting abit perturbed. :P

The story starts in, the music, the characters to meet, and I generally get a "Feeling" for the game. I actually finished the game on Christmas and found myself just sitting there, feeling "WOWED!" to such a degree. The H-bits weren't what I expected, but the stories, the characters, I found myself CARING FOR THEM! I was confused...! Why did I feel bad going down this route, knowing what happens to x girl in this route?! They're just Eroge characters. I think that was when I realized it. I actually wrote a review on Gamefaqs, although I notice now, I made several spelling mistakes, but I'm to lazy to send in a new copy.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin ... 07859.html

I also argue with some Forum goers there, I try to defend Ciel's honor. :P The people on those forums hate her with a fiery passion, for no reason! Everyone of them say they have their reasons, but have no need to state them!


Fate / Stay Night blew me out of the water too, when I first read Fate and had to wait for UBW. I also played Wind ~ A breath of heart(WAY better than I expected actually, I expected standard Eroge) Eroge's like this, I consider to be great, great novels, in fact, that's what I tell most people "I just read a great novel", if I say "Visual Novel", everyone things I'm talking about comic books.
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Unread postby bluish_wolf » November 12th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Message wrote:Don't you mean, "when did you realize that eroge was just cheap pr0n"? o_O


It's expensive pr0n.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 12th, 2008, 9:47 pm

Yeah, seriously lol.

They aren't cheap at all. :P

Pron is probably like 10-15$ for a movie, an Eroge is anywhere from 30-80$ usually. Not to mention, you can just Google pron or YouTube it :P
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 10:02 pm

I havent realized yet...
Eagerly awaiting the epiphany though...
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby abscess » November 13th, 2008, 12:12 am

Image
lolipedofin wrote:When did you realize that eroge is not a cheap pr0n?

Message wrote:Don't you mean, "when did you realize that eroge was just cheap pr0n"? o_O

Atriel wrote:aren't most eroges cheap pr0n?

Undream wrote:I havent realized yet...
Eagerly awaiting the epiphany though...

Long Version:
I'll come out and say that I mostly agree with what was already said by these guys.
I don't think that eroges are "great literary piece(s)", far from them. If we are to talk about "great literary pieces", why not discuss Albert Camus, Tolstoy, Marcel Proust, Elena Poniatowska, Cormac McCarthy, etc., etc.? Hell! even Rius! Authors with works (be them essays, novels, short stories, whatever) that have withstood the passage of time while carrying a message or achieved to make something new and are not only mere entertainment, I think those are the ones to be classified as "literary pieces".

Most eroges are just that, "games" with porn (pr0n, for some...) and everything else is of little matter such as story, gameplay, music, characterization, even artwork sometimes... Examples:
X-Change, Bible Black, Discipline, True Love, Knights of Xentar, Runaway City,... the list goes on and on and on...
In other words, most eroges are a cheap excuse for porno

I think you (lolipedofin) are mistaking eroges with visual novels. Visual Novels don't always carry porn with them. I dare to say that very few eroges actually have anything interesting to say and so much less something really remarkable. That also applies to Visual Novels but in less measure. Now, going back to what I understand as "literary pieces", not all novels, eroges and visual novels can be said to be great in that matter; most are rehashes, retellings or mere ripoffs. Just because we like something so much doesn't mean it's "a great literary piece".

The very first visual novel I ever went through was not an eroge, it had good artwork that wasn't too anime-styled (slightly realistic), the music was good (in some parts, mainly intro and credits), the story was great, the characters were believable... it was Snatcher for the defunct Sega CD, one of Hideo Kojima's master pieces. Snatcher is the reason why I got into the visual novel/adventure novel genre, it has a good story that is entertaining and, to me, seems like it had something to say in its time. Later came Policenauts, but that's another story and I just can't read it.... it's still not translated....

visual novels, such as Tsukihime, Fate/Stay Night, Utawarerumono, etc., are entertaining and have an interesting narrated universe but (and this is from my personal point of view) they don't carry a message to make me say "shit! that's applyable to this or that situation where we are at!" or something like that.... dunno if I'm making much sense.... Well, they don't really carry much of a message or achieved something when being compared to major literary works such as Paradise Lost, Anna karenina, In Search of Lost Time, Siddartha, Thus Spoke Zarathustra...and yes, sadly that also applies to Snatcher, even if I like it o so much.

Eroges, such as Kanon, Air and whatever, I'll never be able to consider them "great literary pieces" (and I think they shouldn't). Their contribution to the entertainment media is notable, perhaps above average (I wouldn't really know) but in other aspects I consider them lacking at best. As I said before, even if we like something a lot, it doesn't mean it's really that great. It's better to say "hey! I like this kind of entertainment" or something like that and not conceal it with labels of "literary greatness".

Sorry if I came out like an asshole. That's not my purpose at all. Most, if not all, of what I say is biased and I tried to make it apparent that this is my way of seeing things. It's not my intention to make a person or a group of people angry and/or offended. I'm just stating my disagreement and give the explanaiton to why is it that I disagree. After all, isn't that the reson for this thread? :)

P.S: If we are to talk about cash spent/wasted in this "vice" (:lol:), then no, they are not cheap :P

tl;dr version
lolipedofin wrote:When did you realize that eroge is not a cheap pr0n?

Aaaah.... Never did, never will; mate! ;)


P.S.2: Hurray for my 1000th post! YAYAAAAY!!
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Atriel » November 13th, 2008, 12:52 am

abscess wrote:they don't carry a message to make me say "shit! that's applyable to this or that situation where we are at!"


Depends. Tsukihime has loads of the "inner struggle" stuff. Amongst other things.

Ever 17 had a shitload of existential crap (just using the word, not insulting), philosophy and more stuff that i can't remember at the moment :P

Not that any of us are in those situations or will ever be, but you know what i mean D:
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Unread postby Undream » November 13th, 2008, 2:02 am

And then defining whats a 'great literary piece' would merit a thread (or a thousand) of its own.
Not that i disagree with what you said about eroges, mind you.
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » November 13th, 2008, 5:09 am

I knew it as soon as I became aware of its existence.
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Unread postby abscess » November 13th, 2008, 5:59 am

Atriel wrote:Depends. Tsukihime has loads of the "inner struggle" stuff. Amongst other things.

Ever 17 had a shitload of existential crap (just using the word, not insulting), philosophy and more stuff that i can't remember at the moment

I can't say about Ever 17, since I haven't finished it yet (only finished You's and You's friend's route [I can't seem to remember her name...]), but my opinion (again, purely personal) is that Tsukihime's theme of "inner struggle", although developed in a good way, could have been better (but then again... everything can be said that it can be done better...). I may be wrong, but I think the "inner struggle theme" can be overshadowed by the pure entertainment factor (which is not bad really, writing someting that the reader has to struggle his/her way through the end is a horrible mistake too). It's just that I think, quoting lolipedofin, taking them "from beginning [...] as a great literary piece [eroges]" is kind of erred :?

Undream wrote:And then defining whats a 'great literary piece' would merit a thread (or a thousand) of its own.

That's also true, and I only gave a very crappy explaination to what I think should be labeled as "great literary pieces". But that's another topic for another thread, and I'm not that book-savy either.

.... Is it just me or I seem sort of an ass now....? Weeell, anyway, I have to finish some homework... and sleep.... and eat dinner... and finish some excercies for an exam.... dammit...

P.S: Hmmm... Now I see that my title changed... slowpoke! :P
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby lolipedofin » November 13th, 2008, 1:17 pm

Wow... the discussion turn out to be more heated and diverse than i what i had in mind... awesome discussion though...

And abscess, no, i'm not talking about visual novel, I really am talking about eroge, well, i do concede that the thread should have added "some" before the word "eroge", because most of the stuffs in the market are of low taste and worthless content... What i want to brought up is, these stuffs, although they had porn inside them, and can even be categorized in adult entertainment, they still has some literary value inside it... or if that notion is to far-fetched, they're at least not pointless like most adult entertainment stuffs out there...

And although I'm not such bibliophile, doesn't read that much heavy books... and all the authors that you mentioned made me felt like I'm stupid for not recognizing any of them.. I still read books, most are for entertainment purpose though, not to enrich my thought or whatever.. the only 'heavy' books i've ever read are Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and Steinbeck's Grape of Wrath... But still, i found that some of the eroge i played are actually great stuffs, a great entertainment, and surely literary-wise more beneficial rather than reading manga or comics...

As for the "from beginning [...] as a great literary piece [eroges]", i just thought that maybe, just maybe, there's someone taking that stance... i do somehow believe it is how Taka's point of view of eroge from the very beginning... lolol.


Anyway, it surprises me... I remember that most people in this forum are quick to correct people that judge tsukihime and F/SN as porn... are you guys taking different view now, or are you, "well... they're not just pr0n... but they're definitely not that worthy either" ??? just curious...
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 13th, 2008, 1:21 pm

Titanic had sex and nudity. I guess it was just a cheap sense of porn too. Same with just about every other damn movie.


Every book has pretty much had sex in it, all the great writers put sex in their books, it's just how it is. The difference with Eroges? IT has to actually be shown and described in further detail.


Tsukihime and Fate Stay / Night, to simply call them cheap porn, would make me think you've never read them.
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Unread postby abscess » November 13th, 2008, 7:21 pm

lolipedofin wrote:all the authors that you mentioned made me felt like I'm stupid for not recognizing any of them..

Naah, don't worry :). Considering I'm from a third world country were very few people read a single book a year, you'll read most if not all of what I've read in due time. Probably I'm just older than you :P

lolipedofin wrote:Anyway, it surprises me... I remember that most people in this forum are quick to correct people that judge tsukihime and F/SN as porn... are you guys taking different view now, or are you, "well... they're not just pr0n... but they're definitely not that worthy either" ??? just curious...

Hmm... I wouldn't say "not that worthy" since they do have those subjects about "inner struggle", "value of your life" and so on. They are a good read and worth the time spent/wasted in them but, for me at least, shouldn't be compared to other "heavier" works. This sort of VNs are meant to be more of a source of entertainment than some allegory of human nature or something...
..... It feels like I'm just rambling about the same things over and over again.... maan, I feel old...

lolipedofin wrote:i found that some of the eroge i played are actually great stuffs, a great entertainment, and surely literary-wise more beneficial rather than reading manga or comics...

That is very true, that's why I've kept my interest in the genre of visual novels (not just eroges). I'm still o so very grateful for that wonderful Snatcher game I played! well, probably I shined it up a bit in my head, but most people that have played it agree it's a good game.

hmmm... rambling anew!:P... Well, anyway, I'm gone. That damn bird is banging its head agains't my ac's frame again!

P.S: Someone bring my cane, goddamit! I'm too old for this shit!
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby that one guy » November 13th, 2008, 10:24 pm

My first Eroge, Crescendo. In fact, it wasn't UNTIL Bible Black that it really hit me "Some of this stuff is REALLY bad."
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