In real life no one believes in Gods aside from the ones of current religions but, that doesn't mean that has changed in the records. When people think of Zeus, they still think of a God.
they will think "a being that was thought to be a real god in legend", no one actually worships zeus or believes hes real...of course when you say zeus people go "oh, hes a god" but only in definition, they dont see it in reality.
No hero receives worship anymore, all they have is their fame, just like Gods have. Also, even if humanity has stopped believing in past Gods, that didn't lower Heracles' or Gilgamesh's divinity. (Remember, they were divine for past civilizations, people do not regard them as divine any longer. People, nowadays, just remember: "Long time ago, they were regarded as divine beings".)
uhm...most heros never recieved worship in the first place >_>...they may have been revered but never actually worshipped...and
if its in the legends that hercules and gilgemesh are written as "part divine", when people think "hercules" or "gilgamesh" they will also think "oh, those people were supposed to be part divine" that should be enough to keep the divinity in them (also it could be like with sabers gender as you pointed out below, that some things dont change for heroic spirits).
just like people think "zeus = lightning" even if zeus is no longer a shinrei and just a normal elemental, he probably still can throw lightning.
In all honesty, I've come to the point where I'm confused regarding the Heroic Spirits and Gods matter. Worship, is not used to refer to a cult (as in, people still revere this God, or that Hero) but, as in the hopes of humanity. Gods and Heroes are precisely that, the embodiment of hopes and wishes of humanity. My idea is, even if there is no cult, if the idea of "God" is still there (even if just as a legend), and the God in question has not being forgotten, then that shall be enough for the God to still keep its status as a Divine Spirit. However, a being that was once a God, but no longer has any cult to itself, and that has been forgotten by humanity, is no longer a God.
to be a divine spirit(shinrei) the being specifically
requires worship, no more worship = becomes a normal elemental.
that elemental when seen will still be "hey, its that god from legend" but technically its no longer a "god" (as its no longer a shinrei) and all elementals are formed from the ideas/belief/ect of humanity, as long as those ideas/beliefs are even vaguely remembered, the elementals formed from it will still have some power.
Zeus, Odin, and Thor are pretty famous. However, they are just beings legends now (just as King Arthur is); people no longer revere them as Gods.
yes...i dont actually see the point your making here XD
People no longer think of heroes, and legends are no longer being modified. I do not understand your point regarding God Hand. Heracles did have it when he was alive (well, he obtained it, at some point of his life).
in nasuverse yes, in real life no(you were talking about rl right), hercules got poisoned and died, burned himself and became a god...never had 12 lives
he already is dead ??? and he will always still exist in throne of heros, just no one will remember they can summon him, the soul stays there.
Are you arguing my point, or just repeating it? I'm saying this because what you wrote was the same thing I said (or intended to).
i thought you meant forgetting gilgemesh = gilgamesh dead and dissappear, "if hes forgotten, then he simply will be no more. he is dead"...sounded like you thought gilgamesh = poof gone, but he wont.
Yes, Gil is powerful because he has powerful NPs... and? All Heroes have some NP, I do not see your point. Gilgamesh will always have his Noble Phantasms.
point was because you said "king arthur more famous than gilgamesh" and then "gilgamesh is > king arthur" let me explain in detail:
1. as a spirit, king arthur is definately > gilgamesh, this is true
2. NP = "allow as lesser spirit (gilgamesh) to defeat a greater spirit (king arthur)"
3. Gilgamesh has very powerful NP's
its why gilgamesh is stronger even though he is less famous, not because he is a superior spirit, but because of his NP's...may sound obvious but thats how it is...
I read Fuyuki's before:
Basically, there is no fame to it. It is the truth behind the beginning of life, like a mark that cannot be seen. A truth/fact is different from fame.
yes there is fame to it, humanity recognises the origin of Ea just by being alive and reproducing, that is what that mark means. even if humanity is not concious or aware of it they will always have the knowledge of Ea's origin within them
and as for truth...if its a truth that is widely know it is famous, "E=mc^2" thats true, and its also very famous equation. "the sky is blue", also true, and everyone knows it...although not much point saying this, irrelevant even XD
Yes, but my point was Slash Emperor is powerful, and it doesn't have any special fame. It is powerful simply because it is powerful. It is the same with Ea. It may not have much or any fame; Ea is more powerful than Excalibur because that fact cannot be modified. Fame isn't the only thing that makes one things powerful, and the truth cannot be changed. Ea was recorded as world-splitting weapon, that, alone, makes it more powerful than Excalibur.
point about Ea written in above comment
as for slash emperor it still needs a source of power, for slash emperor its lifeforce, for Arc its gaia and the moon, for elementals (heroic spirits, ect) they need belief/fame/recognition. only things that i can think of that are "powerful" by default would be akasha, planets (like gaia), and the TYPES...and even then they (types and planets) cannot exist forever, they (types and planets) are not truly self sufficient.
You're correct there, I had forgotten the part about him getting enhanced before death, thanks. Still, even better, that shows fame is not the only thing that makes a being powerful. Fame helps to tell that the existence of a certain being has been recorded, that plus a modifier than comes from legends [even so, fame cannot change some facts (like King Arthur being a woman)]. Anyway, EMIYA doesn't have that boost from fame, he only has the power he had when he was alive (his own, plus what he got from his contract with the Planet).
i never said fame is the only source of power for a being? Arc is 4 servants, but less than about 0.01% of humanity knows about her...just for elementals fame/belief is pretty much their air, food, and water.
EMIYA has no fame (that i know of), yes, but his power is from alaya...he's plugged into a powerhouse, so even as an elemental he doesnt need the belief for power...i do not see the point your making?
heroic spirits who became heros/legends under their own power do not recieve any boosts/ect from alaya, they rely solely on humanities image aswell as the power they had in life...its also why they are not used as counter guardians, because alaya isnt supposed to touch them.
as for sabers gender, yes it was unchanged, but
but even so i agree with your point, i dont think any belief or fame will ever change her gender, just like how rider didnt have snakes for hair...but i guess its becase heroic spirits are still considered the "soul" of "person" (rider wasnt exactly human...but she was a person all the same), and the soul is indestructable and unalterable except by akasha...any changes would have to be more like attachments to that soul rather than an alteration to the soul, and i guess any conflicts between the attatchments and the soul would be in the souls favour
although thats my own speculation (im pretty sure theres a true explanation/ better theory out there)
wheres kansho when you need him XD
It does depend on where the hero is summoned. Also, it is pretty much accepted that if Cuchulainn would have been summoned in Ireland, he would have been a bit stronger (since it is in Ireland were he is the most famous).
a link to a thread/article that covers this would be appreciated
+ that sounds somewhat off...a heroic spirits image is based on the collective idea of humanity as a whole, unless theres something like "legend density" location shouldnt effect the hero
I was not talking about unknown Gods. I was talking about Gods with little fame. For example, Zeus has a lot of fame; many people know who Zeus is. Not many people know who Teshub is, even if he is the basis behind Zeus (as in, Highest God, and Lord of the Thunder). Even so, regardless their fame, they are still regarded as Gods in history. Also, beside the fame factor there is also the part that says "the older a mystery is, the stronger it becomes". Teshub is far older than Zeus. So, once again... I wouldn't know.
its not a mystery if no one cares about it / doesnt remember it + i wrote the shinrei worship point above somewhere...just apply it here
By that, you're saying heroes still have followers. Heroes, nowadays, are nothing more but a part of a story. Just like past Gods are.
bad wording on my part, by "followers" i mean people who hold its(god or heroic spirit) image strongly and in high regard, for people who worship a god, their image of the god is strong, for people who hear stories of a hero, most are like "ok cool" and dont think about it to much<- this still gives the heroic spirt power, but because the image is weaker its less effective than someone thinking "omg this god is awsome i would die for this god"
It may sound awesome, my point is people won't start giving heroes those kinds of abilities randomly. Once again, check the story, heroes do not have any kind of weapons which is not in the legends. The only way for your point to happen would be for the legend to be re-written in the mind of humanity (this is, one day humanity deems that "new" weapon as if it always was part of the legend), chances for that to happen are low, or none.
if your basing it upon rl legends:
medea never had the golden fleece
rider never had pegasus
gilgamesh certainly never had all those weapons
those items are attached to the heros image/legend (except for gilgamesh), yes thats true, but they were never their items...they were given to the heroic spirit in the nasuverse (by nasu) to make it more interesting, and if talking about humanity in nasuverse...it would mean that yes humanity randomly gave medea the golden fleece when she shouldnt have it.
yes but gods need worship, they must believed to have real power in order to remain a god, once no one believes in true existence gods just become a part of legend, just like a heroic spirit.
That's my point. They, as legends, remain as Gods.
but no longer a shinrei, which is what a "real god" would be, legends recognise them as gods, but humanity doesnt recognise them as a "real god"
if zeus walked up to a person, the person would say (assume this person is very hard to suprise/excite) "hey your zeus, your supposed to be a god", and zeus will still fall under the category of "god", but hes not actually one.
That would mean that humanity should regard heroes as real, in order for them to keep their powers. Heroes have their powers because of legends/fairy tails. Gods are also part of those.
no...its just gods that need to be seen as real, for heroic spirits a legend is fine, once a god becomes a legend its no longer a true god(shinrei)
That's my point. People doesn't keep any cult toward old Gods; however, the legends still exist. As legends, they still count as an embodiment of humanity's hopes and wishes, in my opinion.
yes...thats true ive been saying that too, but an embodiment of humanities ideas/wishes/ect is an elemental, the gods become just a normal elemental from being a shinrei, both things are elementals but shinrei is considered the highest class.
i never said that the god will dissappear when stopped being worshipped, it just wont be a "god" anymore technically...if it was forgotten completely...well thats a different story
I order the club sandwich all the time, but I'm not even a member. Man, I don't know how I get away with it.