Who you like more, Shiki or Shirou? [spoilers]

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Shiki or Shirou?

Shiki
170
60%
Shirou
115
40%
 
Total votes: 285

serialies
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Unread post by serialies » January 13th, 2008, 4:46 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
Also, Gods did exist in Nasuverse (I think some still do, like the Christian one, for example); they are spirits of Nature. Medusa is a good example. The whole fame (related to Gods) part is the same as the one applied to mysteries like Legendary Heroes, Noble Phantasms, Phantasmal Beasts, etc... (Obviously in a higher level, since they are Gods.) The reason why they stopped existing is the same as the one for the disappearance of Dragons; [besides getting killed (this would be applied to Minor Gods, I do not think there ever was a human capable of killing a Major God)] people stopped believing in their existence. However, that doesn't mean they existed at some point.[/spoil]
afaik, gods do not die/stop existing unless killed (like one god killing another god...just as one example), they just weaken to the point in which they are practically dead if no one believes in them or even knows of them (they still exist though...but cant interact with anything...and probably take like 1000 years to think a single word)...however knowing about them even through legend would give them some kind of strength...not much though.

same with divine beasts ect (they have their own pocket-world...i think...just like the faeries and stuff), they still exist but as belief in them has dwindled, so has their strength...they become less and less real.

if there was enough belief in them at one point, it means they existed, and if they weren't killed, they should still exist (but might aswell be dead). although im not 100% sure about this...lets say 95% sure

and @ i dont understand what you mean by "higher level" do you mean they need more belief than heros to maintain their power, or they have a seperate belief system that is superior/more efficient than that of the ToH/heroic spirits...because they both use same system...system is faith/belief/legend = power
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 13th, 2008, 5:58 am

serialies wrote:afaik, gods do not die/stop existing unless killed (like one god killing another god...just as one example), they just weaken to the point in which they are practically dead if no one believes in them or even knows of them (they still exist though...but cant interact with anything...and probably take like 1000 years to think a single word)...however knowing about them even through legend would give them some kind of strength...not much though.
I didn't mean to say they died after people stopped believing in them. What I meant was that, to the eyes of people, they no longer existed, and therefore, they couldn't live in the same world as humans. At least, Gaia (The World) doesn't allow it anymore.
serialies wrote:same with divine beasts ect (they have their own pocket-world...i think...just like the faeries and stuff), they still exist but as belief in them has dwindled, so has their strength...they become less and less real.

if there was enough belief in them at one point, it means they existed, and if they weren't killed, they should still exist (but might aswell be dead). although im not 100% sure about this...lets say 95% sure
Yes, again, my point comes down to the perceptions of humans, and the world humans live in. Gods and Dragons inhabited it once but, they no longer do.
serialies wrote:and @ i dont understand what you mean by "higher level" do you mean they need more belief than heros to maintain their power, or they have a seperate belief system that is superior/more efficient than that of the ToH/heroic spirits...because they both use same system...system is faith/belief/legend = power
With higher level I meant higher degree of mystery and worship. Obviously, Gods would be in a higher level than Legendary Heroes, Noble Phantasms, and Phantasmal Beasts in that aspect.

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Unread post by serialies » January 13th, 2008, 6:10 am

just to be technical, gaia doesnt care if divine beasts/gods ect are there or not, they are natural beings so gaia doesnt mind them...its just that it becomes harder for them to exist w/o any belief...depends on humans not gaia, only if the divine beasts n stuff decide to destroy the balance or hurt gaia that gaia will retaliate/care.

+ @ higher degree of worship = they need more belief in order to maintain their power than a heroic spirit?...thats the only way i can interpret what you wrote, w/o any belief/fame a god cant do anything...heroic spirit with a little belief/fame can do alot more than a god with 0 belief/fame, doesnt mean heroic spirit can kill the god (there may be some who can...like a heroic spirit w/noble phantasm that kills divine beings/gods...like enkidu of gilgamesh), but also means that the god cant kill the heroic spirit...it is too weak.
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 13th, 2008, 11:11 pm

serialies wrote:just to be technical, gaia doesnt care if divine beasts/gods ect are there or not, they are natural beings so gaia doesnt mind them...its just that it becomes harder for them to exist w/o any belief...depends on humans not gaia, only if the divine beasts n stuff decide to destroy the balance or hurt gaia that gaia will retaliate/care.
Yes, however Gaia crushes them in order to avoid contradictions. Humans say/believe they do not exist; so, Gaia tries to avoid problems.
serialies wrote:+ @ higher degree of worship = they need more belief in order to maintain their power than a heroic spirit?...thats the only way i can interpret what you wrote, w/o any belief/fame a god cant do anything...heroic spirit with a little belief/fame can do alot more than a god with 0 belief/fame, doesnt mean heroic spirit can kill the god (there may be some who can...like a heroic spirit w/noble phantasm that kills divine beings/gods...like enkidu of gilgamesh), but also means that the god cant kill the heroic spirit...it is too weak.
No, again, you are misunderstanding. What I meant was that Gods would be associated with higher degrees of mystery. You know, Gods = Supreme beings/Can do things humans can barely imagine to do, etc, etc, etc... You know, the whole, greater mysteries > lesser mysteries deal.

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Unread post by serialies » January 14th, 2008, 11:30 am

Dante Obscuri wrote: Yes, however Gaia crushes them in order to avoid contradictions. Humans say/believe they do not exist; so, Gaia tries to avoid problems.
no...it has nothing to do with humans, people will be like "oh that person is alive", gaia will say "no that person should be dead" *crush*
humanity doesnt care as much for contradictions as gaia does.
No, again, you are misunderstanding. What I meant was that Gods would be associated with higher degrees of mystery. You know, Gods = Supreme beings/Can do things humans can barely imagine to do, etc, etc, etc... You know, the whole, greater mysteries > lesser mysteries deal.
greater mystery = more belief...
lesser mystery = less belief...
its not seperate system, just one has more fame/legend than the other...so it is more powerful. "higher degrees of mystery", what does that mean...cannot mean that belief for them is different than belief for heroic spirits...both just need to have fame/legend to have power, both are dependant on peoples ideas.

and everything a god can do only fits with human imagination...why zeus uses lightning because people only think "omg lighting...so powerful" if they cannot imagine it, then the gods cannot have it...and even gods are restricted by akasha...eg if a god is believed to be "all powerful" akasha says no (not literally...but it just cant happen), because only akasha is the true and only "all powerful" being

+ gods are also limited by how many humans believe...Zeus cannot have thunder if no one knows hes supposed to have thunder, just like if a god "all powerful" more belief = more power, but because there is a limit to human numbers + believers it will never reach anywhere close to that state.

anyway belief for a heroic spirit is the same as belief for a god...heroic spirit may not be worshipped, and gods may not be talked about in fairy tales but effect is the same, their power grows.
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 15th, 2008, 1:46 am

serialies wrote:no...it has nothing to do with humans, people will be like "oh that person is alive", gaia will say "no that person should be dead" *crush*
humanity doesnt care as much for contradictions as gaia does.
Yes, but Gaia is not the one that stops believing in them. Humans stop believing in certain thing, and so Gaia moves to avoid contradictions, since Gaia doesn't like those.
greater mystery = more belief...
lesser mystery = less belief...
its not seperate system, just one has more fame/legend than the other...so it is more powerful. "higher degrees of mystery", what does that mean...cannot mean that belief for them is different than belief for heroic spirits...both just need to have fame/legend to have power, both are dependant on peoples ideas.
So, you'll say Tiamat is more famous that King Arthur? I do not see Saber killing Tiamat in any way.
and everything a god can do only fits with human imagination...why zeus uses lightning because people only think "omg lighting...so powerful" if they cannot imagine it, then the gods cannot have it...and even gods are restricted by akasha...eg if a god is believed to be "all powerful" akasha says no (not literally...but it just cant happen), because only akasha is the true and only "all powerful" being
Yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or that they didn't have some of their abilities.

Take Medea for example. She may have been able to use healing magic when she was alive; however, humanity doesn't remember her using that kind of magic, and so she can no longer use it.
+ gods are also limited by how many humans believe...Zeus cannot have thunder if no one knows hes supposed to have thunder, just like if a god "all powerful" more belief = more power, but because there is a limit to human numbers + believers it will never reach anywhere close to that state.
Yes, more belief is more power but, there are also the attributes that people give to Gods which are superior to those people give to Heroes. The point with Tiamat still stands.
anyway belief for a heroic spirit is the same as belief for a god...heroic spirit may not be worshipped, and gods may not be talked about in fairy tales but effect is the same, their power grows.
Again, it is similar but, is not the same. The mysteries a God is associated with are not the same to those that Heroes are.

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Unread post by serialies » January 15th, 2008, 3:19 am

Yes, but Gaia is not the one that stops believing in them. Humans stop believing in certain thing, and so Gaia moves to avoid contradictions, since Gaia doesn't like those.
no...its nothing like that, i already said doesnt matter what humanity thinks...same as reality marbles, reality marbles overide reality, which gaia sees as a contradtion "wtf is this, this area isnt reality, its supposed to be reality, ok im turning it back into reality", happens even if humanity knows about it or not.
So, you'll say Tiamat is more famous that King Arthur? I do not see Saber killing Tiamat in any way.
when did i say that...who said that Tiamat was greater than king arthur?, if in the nasuverse Tiamat is unknown then yes saber can damn well can kick Tiamats ass, i donno about killing...which i said before...b/c just like heroic spirits souls cannot -> cycle of rebirth, there may be rules for gods aswell, but that is a basis on their type of existence, not how much fame/legend they have (in that regardless of how much fame/legend they have, these rules will apply for them as its a condition of their existence)

(...and there ARE legends in which a human/demigod(like gilgamesh) have killed a full god)

but in any case Tiamat will never be able to beat saber if saber has more fame/legend/ect...and if Tiamat is more well known it would make it more powerful then Tiamat > saber.

even if Tiamat has idea "cannot be hurt by swords" if excalibur/caliburn is much more famous (thus a > mystery), Tiamat will still be hurt. just like how caliburn > god hand...allowed saber to kill beserker instantly (i know i said "so powerful it killed him in many different ways, but i was wrong, kansho is correct when he said " mystery of god hand is nothing compared to mystery of caliburn" so there was just one way/type to die for herc, but godhand could not oppose it) so basically if not enough belief the ability might aswell be "cannot be hurt by swords except excalibur/caliburn" or similar...
Yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or that they didn't have some of their abilities.
when did i say that...i said even if they had their abilities once, if no one can remember their abilities, it dissapears. i never said anything about "they didnt exist" only thing i said was that if no one remembers a particular god, that god might aswell be dead (but its not)
Take Medea for example. She may have been able to use healing magic when she was alive; however, humanity doesn't remember her using that kind of magic, and so she can no longer use it.
thats what i said? >_>
Yes, more belief is more power but, there are also the attributes that people give to Gods which are superior to those people give to Heroes. The point with Tiamat still stands.
what point with Tiamat...i still do not see the point

i think you mean "peoples ideas/concept of Gods usually result in the gods having superior abilities (in concept/theory) to a heroic spirit" EG people might think "wow a hero who can see over 2km" but for a god they may think "wow a god that can see everything" then yes i would agree

but again thats obvious, just like how some heroic spirits just death but if god of "all powerful" has like...only 100 believers/people-who-remember now, but god of "death" has like....1 million people who remember/believe then god of death > god of all powerful...

and humanity can def give a hero an ability > than that of a god, its just usually gods are given abilities > than that of a heroic spirit, just a trend.

system is same for both gods and heroic spirits...unless the point you were trying to make was the one i wrote above, i dont understand what your trying to say.
Again, it is similar but, is not the same. The mysteries a God is associated with are not the same to those that Heroes are.
you still havent explained why at all, all you say is "degree of mystery is higher" which doesnt mean anything to me.

its like saying "this motor is different from that motor"
someone asks "why"
and you say "its more powerful"
"why"
"because its degree of power is higher"
"???"
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 15th, 2008, 4:00 am

serialies wrote:no...its nothing like that, i already said doesnt matter what humanity thinks...same as reality marbles, reality marbles overide reality, which gaia sees as a contradtion "wtf is this, this area isnt reality, its supposed to be reality, ok im turning it back into reality", happens even if humanity knows about it or not.
Reality Marble != Phantasmal Beasts

Phantasmal Beasts were roaming the World once, and the World was perfectly fine with that - the World will never like Reality Marbles. One day humanity, for some reason, stopped believing in them, and so, the World moved. The reason behind the contradiction is the fact that, to the eyes of humanity, Phantasmal Beasts shouldn't exist anymore (this is, in the same place humans inhabit).
but in any case Tiamat will never be able to beat saber if saber has more fame/legend/ect...and if Tiamat is more well known it would make it more powerful then Tiamat > saber.
Fact: Saber has more fame than Tiamat.
Fact: Tiamat was a Major God.

Major Gods > Saber/King Arthur

Why? Most people may not know who Tiamat was; however, Major Gods are envisioned by humanity as the Ultimate Beings, and Tiamat is still a Major God, regardless how much fame she may have. That's the kind of mystery I'm talking about. There's also the bit about the older a mystery is, the stronger it becomes.

Another fact:

Fact: Saber has more fame than Gilgamesh.
Fact: Gilgamesh was always pretty bloody powerful.

Gilgamesh > Saber

Another fact:

Fact: Excalibur has more fame than Ea.
Fact: Ea has little to no fame.

Excalibur has nothing to do on Ea.
when did i say that...i said even if they had their abilities once, if no one can remember their abilities, it dissapears. i never said anything about "they didnt exist" only thing i said was that if no one remembers a particular god, that god might aswell be dead (but its not)
Take Medea for example. She may have been able to use healing magic when she was alive; however, humanity doesn't remember her using that kind of magic, and so she can no longer use it.
thats what i said? >_>
Maybe I misunderstood but, all I read from your posts was that the abilities the Gods had always depended on humans.
what point with Tiamat...i still do not see the point
That's odd....
i think you mean "peoples ideas/concept of Gods usually result in the gods having superior abilities (in concept/theory) to a heroic spirit" EG people might think "wow a hero who can see over 2km" but for a god they may think "wow a god that can see everything" then yes i would agree

but again thats obvious
You seem to see it pretty well.
but more important is belief, if no one can think/remember "that hero1(famous, but seen as weak) can never beat hero2(was seen as very strong...but no one remembers now)" then hero1 can beat hero2 because hero2's powers are forgotten.
Not necessarily, see EMIYA. He has no fame.
same for gods one god may be "all powerful" and another god may just be "god of death", the concept/idea of all powerful (includes death) > just death but if god of "all powerful" has like...only 100 believers/people-who-remember now, but god of "death" has like....1 million people who remember/believe then god of death > god of all powerful...
Yes, and in that example we're talking about Gods vs Gods, and we are also talking about their respective mysteries.
and humanity can def give a hero an ability > than that of a god, its just usually gods are given abilities > than that of a heroic spirit, just a trend.
That much fame is not even necessary for a human to kill a minor God, take Scathach as an example.
you still havent explained why at all, all you say is "degree of mystery is higher" which doesnt mean anything to me.
You've already answered that much yourself. Gods (in their vast majority) are regarded to be superior to Legendary Heroes, and Phantasmal Beasts.

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Unread post by serialies » January 15th, 2008, 5:53 am

Dante Obscuri wrote: Phantasmal Beasts were roaming the World once, and the World was perfectly fine with that - the World will never like Reality Marbles. One day humanity, for some reason, stopped believing in them, and so, the World moved. The reason behind the contradiction is the fact that, to the eyes of humanity, Phantasmal Beasts shouldn't exist anymore (this is, in the same place humans inhabit).
its not gaia: "ok humanity doesnt believe, get out"
its divine beasts: "oh crap, humanity doesnt believe, we loosing our power/concept/real-ness"

its not that gaia doesnt let them exist...its that they CANT exist without humanity...lets say somehow a "dragon" spontaneously appeared on earth, that means it had some form of power allowing it to exist (either belief or something)

gaia will look at it and say "ok...it has power letting it exist...the only reason it didnt exist before is because there was no power allowing it to exist, now it has that power...i see no problem"

however if humanity went and wiped out all the dragons with weapons or something, then yes gaia will say "ok all dragons are supposed to be dead...*Sees a dragon that is supposed to have been killed*...ok that has to go"

of course there are individual dragons, but 100% wiped out means all dragons should be dead, so any possible dragon that gaia will/could see will have to have been killed, if there exists a dragon that wasnt killed gaia will not do anything to it

as another EG gaia looks and sees heroic spirit (servant) "ok...it has power letting it exist...the only reason it didnt exist before is that it was dead...wait...it cant come back to life...i see a problem"

and the reason stuff like dragons disappear isnt because humanity forgot (of course they didnt) but because they became more powerful with time (a mystery is stronger the older it is, assuming it is remembered), so because of that they decided to go somewhere else (a pocket plane? im not sure).
Fact: Saber has more fame than Tiamat.
Fact: Tiamat was a Major God.

Major Gods > Saber/King Arthur

Why? Most people may not know who Tiamat was; however, Major Gods are envisioned by humanity as the Ultimate Beings, and Tiamat is still a Major God, regardless how much fame she may have. That's the kind of mystery I'm talking about. There's also the bit about the older a mystery is, the stronger it becomes.
firstly its nasuverse...you cant say what is more famous than the other but lets assume its like RL in terms of fame
Tiamat is only Major god because there is enough faith/ideas making it so, its not "major god = powerful with no need for fame"
its fame => major god => power
once people forget tiamat, tiamat is nothing, just a random worthless being that goes under category of "god"

and yes Major Gods > Saber will always be true (unless humanity suddenly starts thinking "hey king arthur can kill gods")
but Tiamat > Saber may not always be true...if king arthur is remembered, but Tiamat = forgotten, then King arthur > Tiamat
Another fact:
Fact: Saber has more fame than Gilgamesh.
Fact: Gilgamesh was always pretty bloody powerful.
you cannot say for nasuverse...when gilgamesh say "when all the world was united under one king" shiro and saber instantly say "omg gilgamesh"
and yes gilgamesh is powerful, but only because humanity records/remembers it as such...once hes forgotten = weak
Gilgamesh > Saber
not true, raw stats Saber > gilgamesh...only reason her stats were bad w/shiro is because shiro was a bad magician, better magician = closer the heroic spirit is to its true power

and again, its all about the NP, all of gilgameshs strength comes from NP
remember they say "NP allows a lesser spirit to defeat a greater spirit"
just like how Rider is weak, but belephron is strong.
most of Gil's NP > Saber's NP, but once she gets Avalon back he is nothing.
Another fact:

Fact: Excalibur has more fame than Ea.
Fact: Ea has little to no fame.

Excalibur has nothing to do on Ea.
1. NP's can be manifestations of legends...just like how Avalon is a manifestation of both the legendary realm and King arthurs scabbard (in nasuverse scabbard actually was called avalon...but in rl un-named) with that said...

-> although it is not written in books or remembered, the origin/legend-root of Ea (hell or something like that) is carved into the genes of humanity, it will always be remembered through that way...so it actually has one of the highest levels of "fame"
Maybe I misunderstood but, all I read from your posts was that the abilities the Gods had always depended on humans.
gods abilities are dependant on humans...its exactly what ive been saying...when humanity dies all the gods will loose all their power, a god cannot be a god unless it is recognised as such.
what point with Tiamat...i still do not see the point
That's odd....
yes i still do not see your point...
You seem to see it pretty well.
if you say "typical god > typical heroic spirit (same fame/belief)" then i would say yes
but if you say "god > heroic spirit" i would disagree...as i said before there are gods that cannot do anything, because humanity cannot remember it at all.
Not necessarily, see EMIYA. He has no fame.
► Show Spoiler
Yes, and in that example we're talking about Gods vs Gods, and we are also talking about their respective mysteries.
ok heroic spirit vs god
lets say very famous heroic spirit encountered (somehow) a forgotten god
the god cant do anything to heroic spirit, because humanity cannot remember what it can do "OMG ITS A GOD...what does it do?"

and if the heroic spirit had a NP say..."god slayer" which of course can kill gods, then yes that god would be killed.
That much fame is not even necessary for a human to kill a minor God, take Scathach as an example.
ok...thanks for that :o i like reading myth and stuff :P i may read more about irish legends/myth now.
You've already answered that much yourself. Gods (in their vast majority) are regarded to be superior to Legendary Heroes, and Phantasmal Beasts.
yes but you made it sound like Gods were on a completely different scale of existance from heroic spirits/divine beasts.

basically i say, different motors, same fuel...and humanity is the mechanic

fuel = belief
motors = the being itself
ideas = things which define/create the motor (like parts of the motor), so basically its abilities/qualities/power ect

lets say there v2 engines, v4 engines, v6 engines

v2 can be beasts
v4 can be heroic spirits
v6 can be gods

ideas of humanity typically will make it like that...v6 more powerful than v4 ect
but again...if they forget about a paticular god, its like the motor having no fuel, will not work.
and if they forget it means they also loose their ideas which made that god, so parts are dissappeared

of course when humanity(mechanic) looks at the motor, it will say "thats supposed to be a v6 engine", but has no fuel, missing parts ect so its worthless...

now if humanity believes and has good ideas about a v4 motor (heroic spirit) that motor will have good parts, and fuel, so it will work well

working v4 vs broken v6: v4 is better no doubt.

that is what im trying to say...what i thought you were trying to say is that the v6 will always beat the v4, and that the v6 doesnt need fuel and it will never loose parts.

EDIT: hold up...it could be possible we talking about diff things
Zeus, odin, and other things/beings of that nature are considered "divine spirits" (shinrei) in the nasuverse...and when i said "god" i had zeus/ect in mind
divine spirits, heroic spirits, faeries, ect are all considered elementals, and all elementals need belief/faith/legend/ect to exist/have power, hence why i chucked em together.

if you mean gods as in DDD gods (which i have close to 0 knowledge about...all i know is that they dont want anything to do with humanity) then your probably correct in whatever you say about gods.
buuuuuut if you mean gods in the same sense i do (eg zeus, odin, ect) then yah...no problems at all :P
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 15th, 2008, 7:16 pm

serialies wrote:its not gaia: "ok humanity doesnt believe, get out"
its divine beasts: "oh crap, humanity doesnt believe, we loosing our power/concept/real-ness"
No, Phantasmal Races do not necessarily needhumans to believe in them in order to exist. See: Primate Murder and Einnashe.
serialies wrote:iits not that gaia doesnt let them exist...its that they CANT exist without humanity...lets say somehow a "dragon" spontaneously appeared on earth, that means it had some form of power allowing it to exist (either belief or something)

gaia will look at it and say "ok...it has power letting it exist...the only reason it didnt exist before is because there was no power allowing it to exist, now it has that power...i see no problem"
Read the point above.
serialies wrote:however if humanity went and wiped out all the dragons with weapons or something, then yes gaia will say "ok all dragons are supposed to be dead...*Sees a dragon that is supposed to have been killed*...ok that has to go"
That's a different point. If they are dead, they shouldn't exist, and so the World crushes those contradictions.
serialies wrote:of course there are individual dragons, but 100% wiped out means all dragons should be dead, so any possible dragon that gaia will/could see will have to have been killed, if there exists a dragon that wasnt killed gaia will not do anything to it
True
serialies wrote:they became more powerful with time (a mystery is stronger the older it is, assuming it is remembered), so because of that they decided to go somewhere else (a pocket plane? im not sure).
They reached the level of mythical beasts, and so they went somewhere else.
firstly its nasuverse...you cant say what is more famous than the other but lets assume its like RL in terms of fame
Tiamat is only Major god because there is enough faith/ideas making it so, its not "major god = powerful with no need for fame"
We haven't heard about Tiamat in Nasuverse; so, I can only use her fame in real life as an example.
its fame => major god => power
once people forget tiamat, tiamat is nothing, just a random worthless being that goes under category of "god"
I never said anything about people forgetting Tiamat, my point was:

King Arthur's fame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tiamat's fame
and yes Major Gods > Saber will always be true
That's my point.
(unless humanity suddenly starts thinking "hey king arthur can kill gods")
That hasn't happened, and there's no reason for humanity to start thinking that way. So far, in Nasuverse, we haven't seen heroes with abilities completely different from they ones they had when they were alive. Anyway, there's no reason to discuss this.
but Tiamat > Saber may not always be true...if king arthur is remembered, but Tiamat = forgotten, then King arthur > Tiamat
Again, I never said anything about Tiamat being forgotten.
you cannot say for nasuverse...when gilgamesh say "when all the world was united under one king" shiro and saber instantly say "omg gilgamesh"
I didn't say Gilgamesh did not have fame; he is also well-known in real-life. An example to my point (regarding their fame), once Excalibur is seen, people can tell for sure that girl is King Arthur (even if that goes against the legend); her legend was well-known. However, no one knew who that Golden Servant with thousands of Noble Phantasms was, until Gilgamesh himself, technically, revealed them who he was.
and yes gilgamesh is powerful, but only because humanity records/remembers it as such...once hes forgotten = weak
I do not see the idea behind saying if he's forgotten, he'll be weak. Yes, if he loses fame around the world, he'll end up like Cuchulainn (who wasn't precisely weak). If he's forgotten, then he simply will be no more. He is dead, and no one will try to summon someone who doesn't exist.
not true, raw stats Saber > gilgamesh...only reason her stats were bad w/shiro is because shiro was a bad magician, better magician = closer the heroic spirit is to its true power
I'm not talking about stats but, overall. Nasu himself said no Hero has a chance against a serious Gilgamesh.
1. -> although it is not written in books or remembered, the origin/legend-root of Ea (hell or something like that) is carved into the genes of humanity, it will always be remembered through that way...so it actually has one of the highest levels of "fame"
Ea (as named by Gilgamesh) was the copper knife that was used in the separation of heaven and earth (as written in the Enuma Elish). That copper knife was also used by the God Ea to sever Ulikummis from from Ubelluris' shoulder, so that Teshub could kill him. That blade, has little to no fame. It is powerful because it simply is powerful, just like how Slash Emperor is powerful.
if you say "typical god > typical heroic spirit (same fame/belief)" then i would say yes
but if you say "god > heroic spirit" i would disagree...as i said before there are gods that cannot do anything, because humanity cannot remember it at all.
Gods (Divine Creatures) which no longer have any fame become Elementals. Basically, those are no longer Gods. Once again, I'm not talking about Elementals (Gods with no fame) but, about Gods who have little fame, like Tiamat.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
ok heroic spirit vs god
lets say very famous heroic spirit encountered (somehow) a forgotten god
the god cant do anything to heroic spirit, because humanity cannot remember what it can do "OMG ITS A GOD...what does it do?"
Cuchulainn had very little fame in Japan, yet he had all of his abilities. The problem was that he couldn't be summoned at his best.

Also, in the moment humanity labels a being as a God, it already is placing that being on another level. People may not know who that God may be but, people do know "If it is a God, it must be powerful". Obviously, the battle can take another course if the hero is remembered as a God-slayer. All the same, if that fairly unknown God is regarded as a Major God, then... I wouldn't know. My take is the hero wouldn't be able to do much.
and if the heroic spirit had a NP say..."god slayer" which of course can kill gods, then yes that god would be killed.
Once again, there are not many of those NPs. And people won't start giving heroes far-fetched abilities randomly.
ok...thanks for that :o i like reading myth and stuff :P i may read more about irish legends/myth now.
I really do not know much about her story in the actual legend, beside her being Cuchulainn's master, and she being the one that gave him the Gae Bolg. However, in Nasuverse:

From Fuyuki-wiki:
► Show Spoiler
yes but you made it sound like Gods were on a completely different scale of existance from heroic spirits/divine beasts.
I simply meant: "Humanity will regard Gods as superior to other beings."
EDIT: hold up...it could be possible we talking about diff things
Zeus, odin, and other things/beings of that nature are considered "divine spirits" (shinrei) in the nasuverse...and when i said "god" i had zeus/ect in mind
divine spirits, heroic spirits, faeries, ect are all considered elementals, and all elementals need belief/faith/legend/ect to exist/have power, hence why i chucked em together.

if you mean gods as in DDD gods (which i have close to 0 knowledge about...all i know is that they dont want anything to do with humanity) then your probably correct in whatever you say about gods.
buuuuuut if you mean gods in the same sense i do (eg zeus, odin, ect) then yah...no problems at all :P
We are talking about the same kind of Gods. However, I still do not know why do you think I'm talking about beings that have no fame at all. If you read the article, you'll know that Divine Spirits are the highest class of elementals. Them being the most powerful was my point from the very beginning.

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Unread post by Ryuusoul » January 15th, 2008, 11:54 pm

I find it interesting that Shiki vs. Shirou debates always seem to focus on what their powers are as opposed to who the characters are themselves.

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Unread post by Einherjar » January 16th, 2008, 1:10 am

Check some kingdom hearts forums where
they have Sora vs Riku for at least 50 pages where the topic says who they like better.

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Unread post by WingZero » January 16th, 2008, 1:36 am

Fret not, Einherjar, we're getting there.

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Unread post by serialies » January 16th, 2008, 2:23 am

Dante Obscuri wrote: No, Phantasmal Races do not necessarily needhumans to believe in them in order to exist. See: Primate Murder and Einnashe.
this is true, but there are those which do, those that are tied to "gods" (shinrei) also required belief, this covers stuff like divine bulls and ect although now im not entirely sure about dragons.
We haven't heard about Tiamat in Nasuverse; so, I can only use her fame in real life as an example.
in rl no one sees Tiamat as real anymore >_>...would just be an elemental because its only known about in legend, no longer a shinrei.
I never said anything about people forgetting Tiamat, my point was:

King Arthur's fame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tiamat's fame
even so, if Tiamat is no longer worshipped and just known about in passing its power is much less, hence it either lowers from its status as a "divine spirit" or in the very least, can no longer be considered a "major god"

if we assume that Tiamat is still worshipped as a major god (which its not...), then for king arthurs fame/mystery/belief > Tiamat it must mean that -> King arthur is believed in, talked about, worshipped(probably not this one), ect than a god of a big religion...which is definately not true, for a god to be considered a potent force it needs its followers, and im not talking like 100,000... atleast in the order of tens of millions (in Tiamats era...human population was much less, so 10 million was alot...if talking in todays standards...i would have to say atleast 100 million), and to be worshipped means every aspect of that god is known

...for king arthur most people just know "knights of the round" "merlin" "excalibur" "lady of the lake" "holy grail" "mordred" there are several hundred tales within the king arthur epic, people who actually know all the stories about him definately do not compare to the numbers of the followers of a major god.
and yes Major Gods > Saber will always be true
That's my point.
and my points is tiamat wont always be a major god (not that it is one)
That hasn't happened, and there's no reason for humanity to start thinking that way. So far, in Nasuverse, we haven't seen heroes with abilities completely different from they ones they had when they were alive. Anyway, there's no reason to discuss this.
my point here is that if humanity envisions it, there can be heroic spirits that kill gods and also Heracles never had god hand in real life...or anything remotely close to god hand, and dont get me started on Medea...
but Tiamat > Saber may not always be true...if king arthur is remembered, but Tiamat = forgotten, then King arthur > Tiamat
Again, I never said anything about Tiamat being forgotten.
but i did...its an important point here, Tiamat will loose power from lack of belief/legend/ect, thats a fact, and when that happens king arthur > Tiamat.
in the nasuverse Tiamat is probably just an elemental now, not a shinrei (i said this b4 but just to emphasize).
I didn't say Gilgamesh did not have fame; he is also well-known in real-life. An example to my point (regarding their fame), once Excalibur is seen, people can tell for sure that girl is King Arthur (even if that goes against the legend); her legend was well-known. However, no one knew who that Golden Servant with thousands of Noble Phantasms was, until Gilgamesh himself, technically, revealed them who he was.
yes...but whats your point :P just because gil didnt use a NP that screams "gilgamesh" doesnt make him less famous.
I do not see the idea behind saying if he's forgotten, he'll be weak. Yes, if he loses fame around the world, he'll end up like Cuchulainn (who wasn't precisely weak). If he's forgotten, then he simply will be no more. He is dead, and no one will try to summon someone who doesn't exist.
he already is dead ??? and he will always still exist in throne of heros, just no one will remember they can summon him, the soul stays there.
I'm not talking about stats but, overall. Nasu himself said no Hero has a chance against a serious Gilgamesh.
because gilgamesh has powerful NP's..."NP's allow a lesser spirit to defeat much greater spirits" thats something attached to the idea of a NP
Ea (as named by Gilgamesh) was the copper knife that was used in the separation of heaven and earth (as written in the Enuma Elish). That copper knife was also used by the God Ea to sever Ulikummis from from Ubelluris' shoulder, so that Teshub could kill him. That blade, has little to no fame. It is powerful because it simply is powerful, just like how Slash Emperor is powerful.
no...the point of "recorded in all of humanities genes" is covered in f/ha. you can read about it in the type-moon wikia just type Ea into it. although it is a refrence to the Enuma Elish epic in the nasuverse its something different.
and Slash Emperor drains life energy from the already dead surroundings (so its basically killing everything even more), it still requires a source of power, no life/energy/ect around it and it becomes useless, same as heroic spirit, no belief/ect = useless
Gods (Divine Creatures) which no longer have any fame become Elementals. Basically, those are no longer Gods. Once again, I'm not talking about Elementals (Gods with no fame) but, about Gods who have little fame, like Tiamat.
although "gods" do gain power from legend/ect, to actually be a shinrei they need worship, not just "let me tell you about this legendary god which used to be worshiped" it has to be "i believe this legendary god exists and i worship it", Tiamat is not worshipped anymore (i think?...could be crazy people out there)
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
Cuchulainn had very little fame in Japan, yet he had all of his abilities. The problem was that he couldn't be summoned at his best.

Also, in the moment humanity labels a being as a God, it already is placing that being on another level. People may not know who that God may be but, people do know "If it is a God, it must be powerful". Obviously, the battle can take another course if the hero is remembered as a God-slayer. All the same, if that fairly unknown God is regarded as a Major God, then... I wouldn't know. My take is the hero wouldn't be able to do much.
its not the fame of where it was summoned, its the fame/image/legend from the collective thought of humanity...so world wide, not just japan.

and an unknown god cannot be a major god...that is the point...an unknown god does nothing, just worthless. major god needs worship, no worship = no major god...and probably no more shinrei just a normal elemental.

if it was "major god" vs Hero than that god must have huge numbers of followers, much more than the heroic spirits. so yes major god > heroic spirit most of the time, if it was just god vs heroic spirit it can go either way depending on fame/belief.
Once again, there are not many of those NPs. And people won't start giving heroes far-fetched abilities randomly.
how is that far fetched, far fetched is saying "magical frying pan that can summon eddible demons", saying "sword that can kill gods" isnt far fetched, sounds awsome actually
I really do not know much about her story in the actual legend, beside her being Cuchulainn's master, and she being the one that gave him the Gae Bolg. However, in Nasuverse:

From Fuyuki-wiki:
► Show Spoiler
haha "scarier version of rin"
I simply meant: "Humanity will regard Gods as superior to other beings."
yes but gods need worship, they must believed to have real power in order to remain a god, once no one believes in true existence gods just become a part of legend, just like a heroic spirit. Zeus is probably no longer a shinrei in nasuverse because no one thinks "Zeus will be angry if i did this" only think "Zeus in legend doesnt like this" but still a elemental...so if was looked upon it will still look like a "god" because thats what its supposed to be, but its not actually one.

if humanity thinks "gods are superior to other beings" they will also think "but Zeus isnt real", they need to think "this god is real"
and once they think that it makes the god have a higher level of belief/legend than heroic spirits.

so again, all depends on belief.
We are talking about the same kind of Gods. However, I still do not know why do you think I'm talking about beings that have no fame at all. If you read the article, you'll know that Divine Spirits are the highest class of elementals. Them being the most powerful was my point from the very beginning.
read above

EDIT: Sora cries to much and Riku is emo >:[
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Unread post by Carvi » January 16th, 2008, 11:56 am

As returning to the topic. Comparing Shiki and Shirou is rather hard. Shirou is an interesting character even though he dislikes fighting he stands up for a better cause and tries to minimize harm to people unrelated to the war a total altruist. Shiki on the other hand is also worried about people unrealted to get hurt but he accepts fighting easier. As i'm a self-centered egoist person i quite admire Shirou for fighting for a better cause couse i dont see myself in his role . And as for Shiki even though i admire Shirou in a way i still prefer Shiki who is isolated and quiet.... and Shirou's acting with girls -lol-.

And also a question in the berserker vs shiki part.
So if shiki'd stab the dot berserker would revive. Shiki's ability is to destroy one's existence which would mean death so as god hand prevents berserker to be killed by the same method would mean that berserker would be invincible and immune to death. as you say the lives are not in one body but after being killed he gets resurrected would mean that after tohsaka killed him he'd have to dissapear and apperar again.

Sry if i'm writing stupid things... i read through fate again today so i'm tireeeed.

and if it's just as stupid as it sounds to me just ignore it xD

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Unread post by serialies » January 16th, 2008, 12:28 pm

@ carvi:
1.shiki's ability is to cut away time to exist, to destroy ones existence it would also imply destroying the soul, which you cant. theres a difference between "destroy an existence" and "realise the end of an existence by cutting away time to exist"...although they sound similar to some people, they are actually very different...read all the posts b4 and you should figure out how.

2.dot stab = a way to kill something, death = the result, god hand give immunity to the "proccess which caused the death" not the actual death itself. eg head blown off = death, head cut off = death, heart ripped out = death immunity is for the bit before the "= death"

3.i dont see why beserker needs to dissapear than re-appear...he just has to come back to life, rin blew off his head so he regrew a head...if he gets chopped into 50 pieces then he will just reform from those pieces...if he blown to dust then the dust will reform into beserker...until he as died 12 times
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 16th, 2008, 8:48 pm

serialies wrote:this is true, but there are those which do, those that are tied to "gods" (shinrei) also required belief, this covers stuff like divine bulls and ect although now im not entirely sure about dragons.
I assume those would be creatures that come from the imagination of humanity, like Divine Bulls, yes.
in rl no one sees Tiamat as real anymore >_>...would just be an elemental because its only known about in legend, no longer a shinrei.
In real life no one believes in Gods aside from the ones of current religions but, that doesn't mean that has changed in the records. When people think of Zeus, they still think of a God.
even so, if Tiamat is no longer worshipped and just known about in passing its power is much less, hence it either lowers from its status as a "divine spirit" or in the very least, can no longer be considered a "major god"
No hero receives worship anymore, all they have is their fame, just like Gods have. Also, even if humanity has stopped believing in past Gods, that didn't lower Heracles' or Gilgamesh's divinity. (Remember, they were divine for past civilizations, people do not regard them as divine any longer. People, nowadays, just remember: "Long time ago, they were regarded as divine beings".)
if we assume that Tiamat is still worshipped as a major god (which its not...), then for king arthurs fame/mystery/belief > Tiamat it must mean that -> King arthur is believed in, talked about, worshipped(probably not this one), ect than a god of a big religion...which is definately not true, for a god to be considered a potent force it needs its followers, and im not talking like 100,000... atleast in the order of tens of millions (in Tiamats era...human population was much less, so 10 million was alot...if talking in todays standards...i would have to say atleast 100 million), and to be worshipped means every aspect of that god is known
In all honesty, I've come to the point where I'm confused regarding the Heroic Spirits and Gods matter. Worship, is not used to refer to a cult (as in, people still revere this God, or that Hero) but, as in the hopes of humanity. Gods and Heroes are precisely that, the embodiment of hopes and wishes of humanity. My idea is, even if there is no cult, if the idea of "God" is still there (even if just as a legend), and the God in question has not being forgotten, then that shall be enough for the God to still keep its status as a Divine Spirit. However, a being that was once a God, but no longer has any cult to itself, and that has been forgotten by humanity, is no longer a God.
...for king arthur most people just know "knights of the round" "merlin" "excalibur" "lady of the lake" "holy grail" "mordred" there are several hundred tales within the king arthur epic, people who actually know all the stories about him definately do not compare to the numbers of the followers of a major god.
Zeus, Odin, and Thor are pretty famous. However, they are just beings legends now (just as King Arthur is); people no longer revere them as Gods.
my point here is that if humanity envisions it, there can be heroic spirits that kill gods and also Heracles never had god hand in real life...or anything remotely close to god hand, and dont get me started on Medea...
People no longer think of heroes, and legends are no longer being modified. I do not understand your point regarding God Hand. Heracles did have it when he was alive (well, he obtained it, at some point of his life).
yes...but whats your point :P just because gil didnt use a NP that screams "gilgamesh" doesnt make him less famous.
You're correct in that one; it just seemed natural to think Gil is not as famous as King Arthur. It may be different in Nasuverse, who knows?
he already is dead ??? and he will always still exist in throne of heros, just no one will remember they can summon him, the soul stays there.
Are you arguing my point, or just repeating it? I'm saying this because what you wrote was the same thing I said (or intended to).
because gilgamesh has powerful NP's..."NP's allow a lesser spirit to defeat much greater spirits" thats something attached to the idea of a NP
Yes, Gil is powerful because he has powerful NPs... and? All Heroes have some NP, I do not see your point. Gilgamesh will always have his Noble Phantasms.
no...the point of "recorded in all of humanities genes" is covered in f/ha. you can read about it in the type-moon wikia just type Ea into it.
I read Fuyuki's before:
► Show Spoiler
Basically, there is no fame to it. It is the truth behind the beginning of life, like a mark that cannot be seen. A truth/fact is different from fame.
and Slash Emperor drains life energy from the already dead surroundings (so its basically killing everything even more), it still requires a source of power, no life/energy/ect around it and it becomes useless, same as heroic spirit, no belief/ect = useless
Yes, but my point was Slash Emperor is powerful, and it doesn't have any special fame. It is powerful simply because it is powerful. It is the same with Ea. It may not have much or any fame; Ea is more powerful than Excalibur because that fact cannot be modified. Fame isn't the only thing that makes one things powerful, and the truth cannot be changed. Ea was recorded as world-splitting weapon, that, alone, makes it more powerful than Excalibur.
► Show Spoiler
You're correct there, I had forgotten the part about him getting enhanced before death, thanks. Still, even better, that shows fame is not the only thing that makes a being powerful. Fame helps to tell that the existence of a certain being has been recorded, that plus a modifier than comes from legends [even so, fame cannot change some facts (like King Arthur being a woman)]. Anyway, EMIYA doesn't have that boost from fame, he only has the power he had when he was alive (his own, plus what he got from his contract with the Planet).
its not the fame of where it was summoned, its the fame/image/legend from the collective thought of humanity...so world wide, not just japan.
It does depend on where the hero is summoned. Also, it is pretty much accepted that if Cuchulainn would have been summoned in Ireland, he would have been a bit stronger (since it is in Ireland were he is the most famous).
and an unknown god cannot be a major god...that is the point...an unknown god does nothing, just worthless. major god needs worship, no worship = no major god...and probably no more shinrei just a normal elemental.
I was not talking about unknown Gods. I was talking about Gods with little fame. For example, Zeus has a lot of fame; many people know who Zeus is. Not many people know who Teshub is, even if he is the basis behind Zeus (as in, Highest God, and Lord of the Thunder). Even so, regardless their fame, they are still regarded as Gods in history. Also, beside the fame factor there is also the part that says "the older a mystery is, the stronger it becomes". Teshub is far older than Zeus. So, once again... I wouldn't know.
if it was "major god" vs Hero than that god must have huge numbers of followers, much more than the heroic spirits. so yes major god > heroic spirit most of the time, if it was just god vs heroic spirit it can go either way depending on fame/belief.
By that, you're saying heroes still have followers. Heroes, nowadays, are nothing more but a part of a story. Just like past Gods are.
how is that far fetched, far fetched is saying "magical frying pan that can summon eddible demons", saying "sword that can kill gods" isnt far fetched, sounds awsome actually
It may sound awesome, my point is people won't start giving heroes those kinds of abilities randomly. Once again, check the story, heroes do not have any kind of weapons which is not in the legends. The only way for your point to happen would be for the legend to be re-written in the mind of humanity (this is, one day humanity deems that "new" weapon as if it always was part of the legend), chances for that to happen are low, or none.
yes but gods need worship, they must believed to have real power in order to remain a god, once no one believes in true existence gods just become a part of legend, just like a heroic spirit.
That's my point. They, as legends, remain as Gods.
if humanity thinks "gods are superior to other beings" they will also think "but Zeus isnt real", they need to think "this god is real"
That would mean that humanity should regard heroes as real, in order for them to keep their powers. Heroes have their powers because of legends/fairy tails. Gods are also part of those.
so again, all depends on belief.
That's my point. People doesn't keep any cult toward old Gods; however, the legends still exist. As legends, they still count as an embodiment of humanity's hopes and wishes, in my opinion.

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Unread post by serialies » January 17th, 2008, 3:05 am

In real life no one believes in Gods aside from the ones of current religions but, that doesn't mean that has changed in the records. When people think of Zeus, they still think of a God.
they will think "a being that was thought to be a real god in legend", no one actually worships zeus or believes hes real...of course when you say zeus people go "oh, hes a god" but only in definition, they dont see it in reality.
No hero receives worship anymore, all they have is their fame, just like Gods have. Also, even if humanity has stopped believing in past Gods, that didn't lower Heracles' or Gilgamesh's divinity. (Remember, they were divine for past civilizations, people do not regard them as divine any longer. People, nowadays, just remember: "Long time ago, they were regarded as divine beings".)
uhm...most heros never recieved worship in the first place >_>...they may have been revered but never actually worshipped...and
if its in the legends that hercules and gilgemesh are written as "part divine", when people think "hercules" or "gilgamesh" they will also think "oh, those people were supposed to be part divine" that should be enough to keep the divinity in them (also it could be like with sabers gender as you pointed out below, that some things dont change for heroic spirits).
just like people think "zeus = lightning" even if zeus is no longer a shinrei and just a normal elemental, he probably still can throw lightning.

In all honesty, I've come to the point where I'm confused regarding the Heroic Spirits and Gods matter. Worship, is not used to refer to a cult (as in, people still revere this God, or that Hero) but, as in the hopes of humanity. Gods and Heroes are precisely that, the embodiment of hopes and wishes of humanity. My idea is, even if there is no cult, if the idea of "God" is still there (even if just as a legend), and the God in question has not being forgotten, then that shall be enough for the God to still keep its status as a Divine Spirit. However, a being that was once a God, but no longer has any cult to itself, and that has been forgotten by humanity, is no longer a God.
to be a divine spirit(shinrei) the being specifically requires worship, no more worship = becomes a normal elemental.
that elemental when seen will still be "hey, its that god from legend" but technically its no longer a "god" (as its no longer a shinrei) and all elementals are formed from the ideas/belief/ect of humanity, as long as those ideas/beliefs are even vaguely remembered, the elementals formed from it will still have some power.

Zeus, Odin, and Thor are pretty famous. However, they are just beings legends now (just as King Arthur is); people no longer revere them as Gods.
yes...i dont actually see the point your making here XD
People no longer think of heroes, and legends are no longer being modified. I do not understand your point regarding God Hand. Heracles did have it when he was alive (well, he obtained it, at some point of his life).
in nasuverse yes, in real life no(you were talking about rl right), hercules got poisoned and died, burned himself and became a god...never had 12 lives
he already is dead ??? and he will always still exist in throne of heros, just no one will remember they can summon him, the soul stays there.
Are you arguing my point, or just repeating it? I'm saying this because what you wrote was the same thing I said (or intended to).
i thought you meant forgetting gilgemesh = gilgamesh dead and dissappear, "if hes forgotten, then he simply will be no more. he is dead"...sounded like you thought gilgamesh = poof gone, but he wont.
Yes, Gil is powerful because he has powerful NPs... and? All Heroes have some NP, I do not see your point. Gilgamesh will always have his Noble Phantasms.
point was because you said "king arthur more famous than gilgamesh" and then "gilgamesh is > king arthur" let me explain in detail:
1. as a spirit, king arthur is definately > gilgamesh, this is true
2. NP = "allow as lesser spirit (gilgamesh) to defeat a greater spirit (king arthur)"
3. Gilgamesh has very powerful NP's
its why gilgamesh is stronger even though he is less famous, not because he is a superior spirit, but because of his NP's...may sound obvious but thats how it is...
I read Fuyuki's before:
► Show Spoiler
Basically, there is no fame to it. It is the truth behind the beginning of life, like a mark that cannot be seen. A truth/fact is different from fame.
yes there is fame to it, humanity recognises the origin of Ea just by being alive and reproducing, that is what that mark means. even if humanity is not concious or aware of it they will always have the knowledge of Ea's origin within them

and as for truth...if its a truth that is widely know it is famous, "E=mc^2" thats true, and its also very famous equation. "the sky is blue", also true, and everyone knows it...although not much point saying this, irrelevant even XD
Yes, but my point was Slash Emperor is powerful, and it doesn't have any special fame. It is powerful simply because it is powerful. It is the same with Ea. It may not have much or any fame; Ea is more powerful than Excalibur because that fact cannot be modified. Fame isn't the only thing that makes one things powerful, and the truth cannot be changed. Ea was recorded as world-splitting weapon, that, alone, makes it more powerful than Excalibur.
point about Ea written in above comment

as for slash emperor it still needs a source of power, for slash emperor its lifeforce, for Arc its gaia and the moon, for elementals (heroic spirits, ect) they need belief/fame/recognition. only things that i can think of that are "powerful" by default would be akasha, planets (like gaia), and the TYPES...and even then they (types and planets) cannot exist forever, they (types and planets) are not truly self sufficient.
You're correct there, I had forgotten the part about him getting enhanced before death, thanks. Still, even better, that shows fame is not the only thing that makes a being powerful. Fame helps to tell that the existence of a certain being has been recorded, that plus a modifier than comes from legends [even so, fame cannot change some facts (like King Arthur being a woman)]. Anyway, EMIYA doesn't have that boost from fame, he only has the power he had when he was alive (his own, plus what he got from his contract with the Planet).
i never said fame is the only source of power for a being? Arc is 4 servants, but less than about 0.01% of humanity knows about her...just for elementals fame/belief is pretty much their air, food, and water.
EMIYA has no fame (that i know of), yes, but his power is from alaya...he's plugged into a powerhouse, so even as an elemental he doesnt need the belief for power...i do not see the point your making?
heroic spirits who became heros/legends under their own power do not recieve any boosts/ect from alaya, they rely solely on humanities image aswell as the power they had in life...its also why they are not used as counter guardians, because alaya isnt supposed to touch them.

as for sabers gender, yes it was unchanged, but
► Show Spoiler
but even so i agree with your point, i dont think any belief or fame will ever change her gender, just like how rider didnt have snakes for hair...but i guess its becase heroic spirits are still considered the "soul" of "person" (rider wasnt exactly human...but she was a person all the same), and the soul is indestructable and unalterable except by akasha...any changes would have to be more like attachments to that soul rather than an alteration to the soul, and i guess any conflicts between the attatchments and the soul would be in the souls favour

although thats my own speculation (im pretty sure theres a true explanation/ better theory out there)
wheres kansho when you need him XD
It does depend on where the hero is summoned. Also, it is pretty much accepted that if Cuchulainn would have been summoned in Ireland, he would have been a bit stronger (since it is in Ireland were he is the most famous).
a link to a thread/article that covers this would be appreciated :D

+ that sounds somewhat off...a heroic spirits image is based on the collective idea of humanity as a whole, unless theres something like "legend density" location shouldnt effect the hero
I was not talking about unknown Gods. I was talking about Gods with little fame. For example, Zeus has a lot of fame; many people know who Zeus is. Not many people know who Teshub is, even if he is the basis behind Zeus (as in, Highest God, and Lord of the Thunder). Even so, regardless their fame, they are still regarded as Gods in history. Also, beside the fame factor there is also the part that says "the older a mystery is, the stronger it becomes". Teshub is far older than Zeus. So, once again... I wouldn't know.
its not a mystery if no one cares about it / doesnt remember it + i wrote the shinrei worship point above somewhere...just apply it here
By that, you're saying heroes still have followers. Heroes, nowadays, are nothing more but a part of a story. Just like past Gods are.
bad wording on my part, by "followers" i mean people who hold its(god or heroic spirit) image strongly and in high regard, for people who worship a god, their image of the god is strong, for people who hear stories of a hero, most are like "ok cool" and dont think about it to much<- this still gives the heroic spirt power, but because the image is weaker its less effective than someone thinking "omg this god is awsome i would die for this god"
It may sound awesome, my point is people won't start giving heroes those kinds of abilities randomly. Once again, check the story, heroes do not have any kind of weapons which is not in the legends. The only way for your point to happen would be for the legend to be re-written in the mind of humanity (this is, one day humanity deems that "new" weapon as if it always was part of the legend), chances for that to happen are low, or none.
if your basing it upon rl legends:
medea never had the golden fleece
rider never had pegasus
gilgamesh certainly never had all those weapons

those items are attached to the heros image/legend (except for gilgamesh), yes thats true, but they were never their items...they were given to the heroic spirit in the nasuverse (by nasu) to make it more interesting, and if talking about humanity in nasuverse...it would mean that yes humanity randomly gave medea the golden fleece when she shouldnt have it.
yes but gods need worship, they must believed to have real power in order to remain a god, once no one believes in true existence gods just become a part of legend, just like a heroic spirit.
That's my point. They, as legends, remain as Gods.
but no longer a shinrei, which is what a "real god" would be, legends recognise them as gods, but humanity doesnt recognise them as a "real god"

if zeus walked up to a person, the person would say (assume this person is very hard to suprise/excite) "hey your zeus, your supposed to be a god", and zeus will still fall under the category of "god", but hes not actually one.
That would mean that humanity should regard heroes as real, in order for them to keep their powers. Heroes have their powers because of legends/fairy tails. Gods are also part of those.
no...its just gods that need to be seen as real, for heroic spirits a legend is fine, once a god becomes a legend its no longer a true god(shinrei)
That's my point. People doesn't keep any cult toward old Gods; however, the legends still exist. As legends, they still count as an embodiment of humanity's hopes and wishes, in my opinion.
yes...thats true ive been saying that too, but an embodiment of humanities ideas/wishes/ect is an elemental, the gods become just a normal elemental from being a shinrei, both things are elementals but shinrei is considered the highest class.

i never said that the god will dissappear when stopped being worshipped, it just wont be a "god" anymore technically...if it was forgotten completely...well thats a different story
I order the club sandwich all the time, but I'm not even a member. Man, I don't know how I get away with it.

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Unread post by Caineth » January 17th, 2008, 5:49 am

Meh, when you guys come to a consensus publish the book would ya, I'll read it then....

Dante Obscuri
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 17th, 2008, 8:49 pm

serialies wrote:they will think "a being that was thought to be a real god in legend", no one actually worships zeus or believes hes real...of course when you say zeus people go "oh, hes a god" but only in definition, they dont see it in reality.
This is the same as with heroes. No one worships the anymore (worship as in: No one sings the heroic accomplishments of Heracles anymore. No one think of him as an important being. He is just a myth, a fairy tale.), and no one considers them to be real. Yet, as legends, they remain powerful. It is the same with Gods.
uhm...most heros never recieved worship in the first place >_>...they may have been revered but never actually worshipped.
From Fuyuki:
► Show Spoiler
..and
if its in the legends that hercules and gilgemesh are written as "part divine", when people think "hercules" or "gilgamesh" they will also think "oh, those people were supposed to be part divine" that should be enough to keep the divinity in them (also it could be like with sabers gender as you pointed out below, that some things dont change for heroic spirits).
just like people think "zeus = lightning" even if zeus is no longer a shinrei and just a normal elemental, he probably still can throw lightning.
Okay, how do we get demigods? Some God had a relationship with a human, and the newborn was part divine. The divinity this newborn has stems from the legend/worship of on of its progenitors. If that progenitor (the God in question) loses his rank as God, then, as a result, the child wouldn't be divine anymore.

However, as you just pointed out, humanity remembers demigods as such. It is the same with Gods.
to be a divine spirit(shinrei) the being specifically requires worship, no more worship = becomes a normal elemental.

that elemental when seen will still be "hey, its that god from legend" but technically its no longer a "god" (as its no longer a shinrei) and all elementals are formed from the ideas/belief/ect of humanity, as long as those ideas/beliefs are even vaguely remembered, the elementals formed from it will still have some power.
That's true but, I'm not talking about living Gods, or Elementals. I'm talking about Gods in legends, the ones that have been recorded in the Throne; you know, just like Heroes.
yes...i dont actually see the point your making here XD
The same point I've always been making. :/
in nasuverse yes, in real life no(you were talking about rl right), hercules got poisoned and died, burned himself and became a god...never had 12 lives
Ah... No, I was talking about the one in Nasuverse. Anyway, yes, Heracles, in the actual legend, didn't have anything like God Hand, that I know of.
i thought you meant forgetting gilgemesh = gilgamesh dead and dissappear, "if hes forgotten, then he simply will be no more. he is dead"...sounded like you thought gilgamesh = poof gone, but he wont.
No, my point was, if Gilgamesh is forgotten, then no one will summon him any more. His soul will remain in the Throne.
1. as a spirit, king arthur is definately > gilgamesh, this is true
Fame-wise, I wouldn't know. In real life I'd completely agree.

Also, from Fuyuki:
► Show Spoiler
The moar you know.
2. NP = "allow as lesser spirit (gilgamesh) to defeat a greater spirit (king arthur)"
I wouldn't know which status would be superior between part-Dragon, and part-God. So, I won't comment on their nature. The spoiler above still stands, though.
► Show Spoiler
Yes, but Gilgamesh comes with NPs. There is no point in discussing his stats, or abilities. If you're talking about Goldy, you have to take into account his NPs.
yes there is fame to it, humanity recognises the origin of Ea just by being alive and reproducing, that is what that mark means. even if humanity is not concious or aware of it they will always have the knowledge of Ea's origin within them

and as for truth...if its a truth that is widely know it is famous, "E=mc^2" thats true, and its also very famous equation. "the sky is blue", also true, and everyone knows it...although not much point saying this, irrelevant even XD
No, for example, I may not know anything about the existence of plasma, and that doesn't change the fact it exists. Even if no human would know about it, the existence of plasma is a truth that cannot be changed. The same applies to Ea; it is a "truth".
Truth does not rely on the knowledge of humans. A truth simply is.
Fame, on the other hand, relies on the knowledge of people.
as for slash emperor it still needs a source of power, for slash emperor its lifeforce, for Arc its gaia and the moon, for elementals (heroic spirits, ect) they need belief/fame/recognition. only things that i can think of that are "powerful" by default would be akasha, planets (like gaia), and the TYPES...and even then they (types and planets) cannot exist forever, they (types and planets) are not truly self sufficient.
Yes, Slash Emperor draws life-force/mana, Gae Bolg draws mana from the Planet, and Excalibur draws Prana from its user. All of them use a source of energy. My point was, Slash Emperor has no fame, and even then, its output goes beyond that of Gae Bolg and Excalibur.

There's also a bit about a "glimpse of truth" (like Ea's) regarding Slash Emperor. However, Ado Edem was pretty much alive when we saw him in Angel Notes.
(As a side note, Slash Emperor is my favourite weapon so far in Nasu's works.)
i never said fame is the only source of power for a being? Arc is 4 servants, but less than about 0.01% of humanity knows about her...just for elementals fame/belief is pretty much their air, food, and water.
From Fuyuki:
► Show Spoiler
Arc = True Ancestor. She doesn't have any special fame.
EMIYA has no fame (that i know of), yes, but his power is from alaya...he's plugged into a powerhouse, so even as an elemental he doesnt need the belief for power...i do not see the point your making?
EMIYA doesn't need fame because he was recorded in the instant he made the pact with the Planet (that, or when he changed fate). Heroes, in order to be recorded, need fame. The more fame they have, the more attributes they will have in legends (I wouldn't know how much that would be blended with the actual hero, if there was something real about it, in the first place). The more fame there's about them, the higher the chances for it to be summoned at its best, since the legends are more "fresh," and so the details are more clear.
heroic spirits who became heros/legends under their own power do not recieve any boosts/ect from alaya, they rely solely on humanities image aswell as the power they had in life...its also why they are not used as counter guardians, because alaya isnt supposed to touch them.
No, with boost, I meant boost from fame. You know, additional abilities they probably didn't have in life, etc.
as for sabers gender, yes it was unchanged, but
► Show Spoiler
but even so i agree with your point, i dont think any belief or fame will ever change her gender, just like how rider didnt have snakes for hair...but i guess its becase heroic spirits are still considered the "soul" of "person" (rider wasnt exactly human...but she was a person all the same), and the soul is indestructable and unalterable except by akasha...any changes would have to be more like attachments to that soul rather than an alteration to the soul, and i guess any conflicts between the attatchments and the soul would be in the souls favour
This is what my point has been since I started. There's the fame from the legends but, there's also the part that was actually true (this is, if the being actually existed). Fame can be a boost but, it cannot change the more important aspects of reality.
a link to a thread/article that covers this would be appreciated :D

+ that sounds somewhat off...a heroic spirits image is based on the collective idea of humanity as a whole, unless theres something like "legend density" location shouldnt effect the hero
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:D
its not a mystery if no one cares about it / doesnt remember it + i wrote the shinrei worship point above somewhere...just apply it here
They are still mysteries; all the ones we've mentioned still are remembered.
bad wording on my part, by "followers" i mean people who hold its(god or heroic spirit) image strongly and in high regard, for people who worship a god, their image of the god is strong, for people who hear stories of a hero, most are like "ok cool" and dont think about it to much<- this still gives the heroic spirt power, but because the image is weaker its less effective than someone thinking "omg this god is awsome i would die for this god"
I'm not talking about them being worshipped. Again, just as with heroes, I'm talking about the ones in legends, the ones which are recorded in the Throne.
if your basing it upon rl legends:
No, I wasn't.
rider never had pegasus
No, but their legends are related. In one of the legends, Pegasus was born/appeared/whatever the term should be, right after Perseus cut Medusa's head off.

they were given to the heroic spirit in the nasuverse (by nasu) to make it more interesting[/quote]
Yes, but in Nasuverse, they did have those things when they were alive.
but no longer a shinrei, which is what a "real god" would be, legends recognise them as gods, but humanity doesnt recognise them as a "real god"
Again, I'm not talking about Gods who became Elementals due to lack of worship. That's not a God any longer. You can, technically, say that God is dead (Nietzsche: \o/). If we're going to use "dead Gods," then we as well may use the corpses/ashes of what once were heroes. There is simply no point in using Elementals. This is why I'm talking about the Gods in legends, those that have been recorded in the Throne.
no...its just gods that need to be seen as real, for heroic spirits a legend is fine, once a god becomes a legend its no longer a true god(shinrei)
Same point as above.
yes...thats true ive been saying that too, but an embodiment of humanities ideas/wishes/ect is an elemental, the gods become just a normal elemental from being a shinrei, both things are elementals but shinrei is considered the highest class.
Again, Legends, Throne, etc...
ray_althor wrote:Meh, when you guys come to a consensus publish the book would ya, I'll read it then....
This is purely friendly nerd rage.

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