Who you like more, Shiki or Shirou? [spoilers]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Shiki or Shirou?

Shiki
170
60%
Shirou
115
40%
 
Total votes: 285

serialies
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Unread post by serialies » January 11th, 2008, 1:47 pm

Mukuro wrote: Uh, IIRC he said 3rd personality Ryougi can fight defensively with a NORMAL servant...
afaik
► Show Spoiler
Dots are on it just representing a signal fro akasha to terminate the host (and it's on it cuz otherwise you won't be able to tell who to kill).
no...dots represent the time something has to exist, cut away dot = cut away time to exist, its not a magic button that makes akasha do stuff...
You can't defend it as you can't defend against akasha.
i would agree if that was what was actually happening...

think of it like a game: Akasha = GM or server maker, shiki = player. Shiki wins an event (nearly dying) and akasha gives him a special ability "mystic eyes of death", which instantly sets hp of monster he hits to 0 (hp doesnt = time...but you understand what i mean)
everytime he uses the ability, akasha doesnt get a message saying "ok please set this monster hp -> 0"
what happens is that akasha has already wrote into the system "if someone with this ability hits a monster, set the hp -> 0"

another example akasha also made gravity: if someone falls off a cliff, the person hitting the ground isnt a signal for "akasha, kill this person", no him hitting the ground = impact causes biological functions to cease, ect -> death. and after death soul -> akasha

same for eyes
dot stab = time gone = death
after the death the soul -> akasha.
That's why berserker can't develop resistance to it. It's not a method to kill. It's just telling akasha that he is dead.
uhm...it is very much so a method to kill...if it can be used to kill things, its a method to kill
and no, the dot stab itself doesnt tell akasha its dead, its the fact that after the dot stab the time to exist = 0, which tells akasha's system "this is now dead, take to akasha"

what your thinking of is *stab* -> ok akasha, it should be dead -> *akasha set time = 0* -> *akasha take soul*
its actually *stab* -> time set = 0 -> system recognises its dead -> *akasha recieves soul*
Like writing to death note. You killed him but it was not your power that did it, it was something more powerful.
not really, death note uses supernatural powers to causes people to die from natural things, like car crash, heart attack
mystic eyes of death is just a supernatural power that causes a supernatural death

+ if you have the deathnote, the deathnotes power is your power...its not someone elses. it its within your control, the power is yours...if you loose deathnote = you no longer have its power
it might not for him but for R. Shiki It's not impossible
based on what we know about ryogi, we could argue forever on if its possible or not for her (already said her powers were paradox like...)
that's what I am trying to tell, that god's hand won't work, since it can't work against akasha (ie predetermined death).
once again....servants dont have predetermined death, they are already dead...
+ read game allegory above
And what is berserker anyway? Big pool of mana with soul. All of this was created when mage made contract and made from grail. Ie it has the beginning. ANd it will eventually be destroyed. Ie it has death. It doesn't matter that soul possessing the mana is dead or not, but the spell that powers it and/or mana can be destroyed.
this one is hard to explain...the servant isnt actually "alive" its seen by the world as "dead"...as in the world is like "wait, you should be dead", and "mystic eyes of death" depends on what the world sees (gaian restrictions), if the world cant recognise the death of something, neither can the user of "mystic eyes of death"

and the "spell" and "mana" that allows the servant to exist would come from the greater grail and the "master" respectively...if you destroy those, yes the servants will "die", but that method is an indirect way.

EDIT:

about hercs soul being a copy

based on what is said in f/sn and nasu there exists 2 possiblities 1. actual true soul that is summoned as a servant, and after total defeat is returned to throne of heros,
2. true soul is always kept in the throne of heros, and everything else is a copy, after total defeat, the soul disappears (yes...not cycle of rebirth or throne of heros, disappear) but afaik this copy soul is treated as if it were a real "heroic spirit", but things that cause contradictions like "ok this soul -> throne of heros...wait theres already one in there! WTF" wont apply to the copy, everything else is same if it were a heroic spirit though.

so servant is either real, or fake, unknown as of yet (many people think fake though...but no one can say 100% certain)

BUT for the sake of argument

1. if real herc summoned...well the soul will never "die/disappear", so basically what we've said before
2. if "fake" copy summoned...it wont go -> cycle of rebirth or throne of heros, but each "copy" soul wont disappear until conditions are met

eg if summoned as CG, the CG wont dissappear until all its goals have been completed, and if it "dies" the soul is just given a new body until the job is finished, then the soul disappears for good

eg create one soul thats a copy of certain hero -> keep using that soul until all goals are met (like...kill a certain person or something) -> soul disappears

SO we can assume that for servants this is also the case...if hercs soul has "will res 12 times", he will res 12 times...other conditions will be in it aswell like if "if > noble phantasm is used = defeat" or "when mana = 0 = defeat" but shouldnt effect result.
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Unread post by Enerccio » January 11th, 2008, 3:12 pm

but you see, if Shiki takes the remaining time (with help of akasha, I am sure of it, cuz no one should be able to do it without help of powerful source, which he get from akasha) then target is dead for sure. There is no defence. Why Roa could not reborn? It's same reason.

For your allegory with the game.

If Akasha is server, if Shiki gets the ability, then server has to calculate the effect and set the opposing player dead. It's not shikis work.

If someone fall from high ground, its the effect of gravity that kills him. Still natural death. Also cutting with sword is natural dead. Getting hit with noble phantasm is natural too (despite looking unnatural). But getting killed by Shiki'seyes is something like cheating. Think of it like that:

You are mighty hacker and you get into the main server of Akasha MMORPG. You looked at code, created backdoor, hacked stuff and made a character named Shiki Tohno with GM's abilities. Then you meet berserker which is a critter that should need to be killed 12 times to definitely kill him. Since you hacked the code, you can use special kill command that will instantly kill the critter regardless of it. So you kill it with kill command. Game won't check the script for how many deaths are left, since you killed it with GM ability that should be used for debugging and therefore ultimate. But be aware, you can get banned for that (it's not official (allegory with brain damage)). Instead Ryogo Shiki is official (yet new) GM so of course she is more skilful and knew more commands that can disable abilities and stuff.


And why not there could be condition "if Mystic Eyes of Death Perception = make lives 0"?

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Unread post by Mukuro » January 11th, 2008, 3:31 pm

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Hmm...I always thought that
► Show Spoiler
Dunno which one Nasu meant though.

About the berserker thingy, I think if Shiki dot stab Berserker, then he will still be revived (dunno if he will be immune) but if Shiki dot stab the "God Hand" noble phantasm itself (if it's possible), then the noble phantasm will cease and left berserker with only 1 life and will lose the God Hand effect (12 lives, immunity against attacks that killed him before, nulls damage below A rank).

serialies
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Unread post by serialies » January 11th, 2008, 3:40 pm

but you see, if Shiki takes the remaining time (with help of akasha, I am sure of it, cuz no one should be able to do it without help of powerful source, which he get from akasha) then target is dead for sure. There is no defence. Why Roa could not reborn? It's same reason.
if that were true,
► Show Spoiler
and roa is a little different,
► Show Spoiler
You are mighty hacker and you get into the main server of Akasha MMORPG. You looked at code, created backdoor, hacked stuff and made a character named Shiki Tohno with GM's abilities. Then you meet berserker which is a critter that should need to be killed 12 times to definitely kill him. Since you hacked the code, you can use special kill command that will instantly kill the critter regardless of it. So you kill it with kill command. Game won't check the script for how many deaths are left, since you killed it with GM ability that should be used for debugging and therefore ultimate. But be aware, you can get banned for that (it's not official (allegory with brain damage)). Instead Ryogo Shiki is official (yet new) GM so of course she is more skilful and knew more commands that can disable abilities and stuff.
if it was an mmporg, there would be no "hacking" akasha would have 100% control, and system would be flawless, and any changes to system will be quickly fixed.

+ shiki gets mystic eyes "legitimately"
► Show Spoiler
, its exactly as i said before...GM gives player the ability...the player cant "create" the ability or "hack" the system...as akasha = flawless and ultimate GM

and as such that ability uses and is a part of the existing game system, "mystic eyes of death" is recognised by the system, and acts under the system (like how shiki can only kill things with gaian death).

+ the ability is like i said "set hp 0" not "remove monster totally"...what your saying is no longer "mystic eyes of death" ability but something else.

EG if another monster from a different game (planet) that had a different HP system (lets say LP...life points) came to the game shiki was playing on (gaia) his ability would be like "wtf is LP", although akasha can make the ability "remove monster" she didnt, the ability is "set hp = 0", so if it doesnt have HP the ability wont work...if ability was "remove monster" then it would work, but its not...

of course if you hit the monster, it will still loose LP, just like how ORT can be killed physically...just not with gaian "mystic eyes of death"

i hope that clears it up...i think that what i wrote above is a pretty good analogy (even if a do say so myself)

EDIT: @ stabbing NP: if it was possible to stab it (which it probably isnt), it would just reappear instantly AS its formed from belief/legend, if belief/legend is still there then it will always exist...if you stab NP it wont "kill" the belief or legend, so no point in stabbing NP except to disrupt momentairily (momentairily as in 0.00000001 seconds...)

like if NP was a lake, legend + belief = river that brings water to the lake...if you somehow destroy the lake (iono...suck all the water away in 1 second)eventually a new lake will form

EDIT2:
And why not there could be condition "if Mystic Eyes of Death Perception = make lives 0"?
because its just not...if akasha actually had desires (which to my knowledge it doesnt)...and wanted to i guess the ability could be changed (but given the nature of akasha, this will never happen as it is everything, past, present, future...so this is the permanant form of "mystic eyes of death"...it will never change), but as it currently is right now, its just "cut away time to exist...that is set time = 0"
Last edited by serialies on January 11th, 2008, 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post by Brizzle » January 11th, 2008, 3:56 pm

When Shiki kills Arc, he only slices here lines. That is way different than stabbing the point. If he had been able to perceive and stab the point, it would have been over permanently for her. Just a little nitpick.

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Unread post by serialies » January 11th, 2008, 4:00 pm

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and use spoilers o_o you could get into trouble...
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Unread post by Brizzle » January 11th, 2008, 6:03 pm

Isn't this whole thread labelled spoilers?

I assume Message would have destroyed me by now if it wasn't. :?

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Unread post by Raitei » January 11th, 2008, 10:30 pm

Brizzle wrote:Isn't this whole thread labelled spoilers?

I assume Message would have destroyed me by now if it wasn't. :?
no worries. as long as this discussion includes either shiki or shirou, you won't break the spoiler rule. I think message said that.
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Dante Obscuri
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 11th, 2008, 11:33 pm

serialies wrote:when nasu said he cant kill servants it was for the following reasons

1. he would never be able to hit them, they are simply too agile/powerful (caster wouldnt even need to dodge, just incinerate him)
2. shiki would need a conceptual/divine/ect weapon to hurt them (although eyes of death seems to let him ignore this at convenient times)
3. its generally accepted that there will be no lines and dots for shiki to see (although its still a little vague in this area).
What I've read mostly on BL is that Nasu simply said "Shiki cannot kills Servants," with no further explanations. Even so, the first point is an obvious one. That's why in my assumption I said Heracles would be unable to move.
serialies wrote:and @ dante: finding a powerful being w/something like god hand but seen as "normal" by the world and/or humanity and/or akasha would be impossible (in order for them to be powerful/ even have the ability, they must be recognised as not normal in the first place). so god hand will never be rendered useless as the only way it could be rendered useless would be via an impossible scenario in the nasuverse.
Not really, DAAs are not normal either (nor abilities like "Lair of the Beast King" and "Soil of Genesis"), and Shiki can kill them (except ORT and Crimson Moon Brunestud, obviously). The idea why I wanted to leave the Throne of Heroes aside was to have Chokushi no Magan and God Hand on the same level - that is, skill vs skill (no fame factor).
serialies wrote:+ any "god hand" outside akasha and fame/mystery factor is no longer a "god hand" that we know of, might aswell be a completely different ability all together >_>
Again, that's why I said hypothetical scenario. Also, in the moment you said "if Shiki can kill Heracles (at least once) with his magan" you're assuming he can see his lines/dots, and therefore, you are doing the same thing I did.

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Unread post by serialies » January 12th, 2008, 2:52 am

@ spoilers...i spoiler the stuff that is kinda irrelevant to shiro n shiki...aka Rakkyo just incase
Not really, DAAs are not normal either (nor abilities like "Lair of the Beast King" and "Soil of Genesis"), and Shiki can kill them (except ORT and Crimson Moon Brunestud, obviously). The idea why I wanted to leave the Throne of Heroes aside was to have Chokushi no Magan and God Hand on the same level - that is, skill vs skill (no fame factor).
i never said not being normal makes you immune to Mystic eyes of death >_>, i just said its a contradiction for the person to be considered normal by the world, akasha, ect but have super powers...if someone had god hand, the only way they could get that in the first place is via heroic feats, or a pact with the world in order to achieve heroic feats...either way its -> throne of heros
Again, that's why I said hypothetical scenario. Also, in the moment you said "if Shiki can kill Heracles (at least once) with his magan" you're assuming he can see his lines/dots, and therefore, you are doing the same thing I did.
not really...because afiak no one can say for 100% certainty that he WONT see dots...its just that the evidence points to him(shiki...not Ryogi) not being able to see dots (servants already dead, servants = powerful and if a being is powerful enough there wont be dots..., if had NP like Avalon possible that you cant see dots...ect), so its like...99% sure he cant see dots.

but god hand is 100% fame/mystery factor dependant...so no fame mystery = not god hand
whereas can see dot can still possibly be mystic eyes of death...just that its not likely by a huge amount...

and just so you kno, it was because the question "if he can see dots" that i responded "well IF he could...blah blah blah"...
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 12th, 2008, 10:25 am

serialies wrote:i never said not being normal makes you immune to Mystic eyes of death >_>, i just said its a contradiction for the person to be considered normal by the world, akasha, ect but have super powers...if someone had god hand, the only way they could get that in the first place is via heroic feats, or a pact with the world in order to achieve heroic feats...either way its -> throne of heros
Ah... I see. What I meant with normal was: "Not in the Throne of Heroes/Outside the Cycle of Reincarnation".
not really...because afiak no one can say for 100% certainty that he WONT see dots...its just that the evidence points to him(shiki...not Ryogi) not being able to see dots (servants already dead, servants = powerful and if a being is powerful enough there wont be dots..., if had NP like Avalon possible that you cant see dots...ect), so its like...99% sure he cant see dots.
If there's a 0.0000009% chance that he can see them, and we follow a similar scenario to that of Raitei's(?) (Shiki miraculously evades an attack and slashes/stabs), then, since other servants do not have God Hand, they would die. However, Nasu said Shiki cannot kill servants; so, most likely, he cannot see their lines/dots.

There was also the assumption that Black Berserker may not have God Hand. There was no information saying he didn't; so, there was not reason to assume that much. That was a hypothetical scenario, as well.
but god hand is 100% fame/mystery factor dependant...so no fame mystery = not god hand
Not so much, he had God Hand before he died. Perhaps it got some extra abilities (or not) due to the fame factor (this is, after Heracles' death).
and just so you kno, it was because the question "if he can see dots" that i responded "well IF he could...blah blah blah"...
And... that's exactly the same thing I've been doing. I've been talking about IFs = hypothetical scenarios = not precisely true/modified to see a possibility. That's why I said, IF this happens, and If this happens too, then this can happen, etc...
I know the scenarios are no longer part of the Nasuverse, and that's why they are only hypothetical.

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Unread post by serialies » January 12th, 2008, 11:42 am

Not so much, he had God Hand before he died. Perhaps it got some extra abilities (or not) due to the fame factor (this is, after Heracles' death).
god hand (alive herc) = gift from gods

gods get power from belief
no belief = weak god
weak god = crappy god hand (when herc = alive)

but after herc dead its NP which needs its own belief/fame/mystery.

both ways god hand is dependant on belief/mystery/fame. although via god is indirect way...but still, it follows fame/mystery system.
I know the scenarios are no longer part of the Nasuverse, and that's why they are only hypothetical.
what i said MAY be possible (but only like 1%) in nasuverse (its not 100% sure he cant see dots), what you said wasnt possible at all in the nasuverse...thats the difference that i see/meant. but yes we both used hypotheticals, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Last edited by serialies on January 12th, 2008, 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post by Enerccio » January 12th, 2008, 11:42 am

serialies wrote:servants already dead, servants = powerful and if a being is powerful enough there wont be dots..., if had NP like Avalon possible that you cant see dots...ect
servant's are dead.... well for akasha servant is dead and in Throne of Heroes. BUT, copy of it is alive for akasha and on earth. Therefore there is no problem with seeing lines on it.

Avalon is ultimate protection but, it protect user from being killed. But as I said, if it would protect dot-cutting, that would mean that person is immortal, cuz dot represent time that remains from him. If there is no dot then time is infinite and that means immortality and invincibility. And I still don't think that it will work as this.


Nasu said that shiki don't have chance against a servant. Well that is of course, they would kill him way before he can laid strike. But that doesn't mean that he won't be able to kill them.

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Unread post by Raitei » January 12th, 2008, 11:50 am

Enerccio wrote: servant's are dead.... well for akasha servant is dead and in Throne of Heroes. BUT, copy of it is alive for akasha and on earth. Therefore there is no problem with seeing lines on it.

Avalon is ultimate protection but, it protect user from being killed. But as I said, if it would protect dot-cutting, that would mean that person is immortal, cuz dot represent time that remains from him. If there is no dot then time is infinite and that means immortality and invincibility. And I still don't think that it will work as this.


Nasu said that shiki don't have chance against a servant. Well that is of course, they would kill him way before he can laid strike. But that doesn't mean that he won't be able to kill them.
avalon will definitely make its user immortal. it's clearly said. the user will never age, never suffer a wound, and will never die. and thus the regular flow of time won't affect the user. that's obviously stated.

but saber "died" even though avalon should render her completely invincible. why? because avalon was stolen from her at that time.

and if you read kansho's post in the previous 3 pages ( please, do it before you post another reply ), you'll see that shiki won't be able the dots and lines on things that are outside gaian rules. and servants are definitely out of it.
Last edited by Raitei on January 12th, 2008, 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post by serialies » January 12th, 2008, 11:55 am

copy of it is alive for akasha and on earth. Therefore there is no problem with seeing lines on it.
no copy is also dead, earth sees it as dead, akasha has it recorded as "dead"...its because its dead that earth(gaia) tries to crush the servant...contradiction, its considered dead but manages to walk, talk, ect.
Avalon is ultimate protection but, it protect user from being killed. But as I said, if it would protect dot-cutting, that would mean that person is immortal, cuz dot represent time that remains from him.
yes...avalon = immortal aslong as user has it (and can use its full ability), stops user from getting hurt, aging, disease, heals user, ect...only reason that saber
► Show Spoiler
if there is no dot then time is infinite and that means immortality and invincibility. And I still don't think that it will work as this.
and i already said...no dots doesnt = immortal...like i said ORT is not immortal but it doesnt have dots
and no dot = no time (like something already "Dead"...servants) OR at that moment, death cannot be realised/comprehended. doesnt mean immortal...it CAN mean immortal...but no dot doesnt mean "ok this is definately immortal"

EG 100% Arc under full moon..."Arc" still has time, she is not immortal...but dots dissappear because at that moment, her death cannot possibly be realised by ripping away her time...she is simply to powerful...her death cannot be comprehended at that state by mystic eyes of death. if ORT fought Arc when she is 100% under full moon, Arc will still die, ORT is much > than Arc, so she is not immortal...but either way mystic eyes of death will not see dots

does that help?
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Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 12th, 2008, 10:36 pm

serialies wrote:weak god = crappy god hand (when herc = alive)
That's the idea, using a God Hand when he was alive (that's why I said the scenario would use Shiki and Heracles from their respective timelines); I was clear when I said "Heracles the living being, not the Servant".
what i said MAY be possible (but only like 1%) in nasuverse (its not 100% sure he cant see dots), what you said wasnt possible at all in the nasuverse...thats the difference that i see/meant. but yes we both used hypotheticals, sorry for the misunderstanding.
My idea wasn't to come up with a possible scenario; I said from the beginning Shiki cannot kill Servants. The idea behind coming up with a hypothetical scenario basically was "Okay, if you'd like that to happen (which, is quite impossible), then this, and this should be this and that way".
Last edited by Dante Obscuri on January 12th, 2008, 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Kansho » January 12th, 2008, 10:39 pm

Enerccio wrote:
serialies wrote:servants already dead, servants = powerful and if a being is powerful enough there wont be dots..., if had NP like Avalon possible that you cant see dots...ect
servant's are dead.... well for akasha servant is dead and in Throne of Heroes. BUT, copy of it is alive for akasha and on earth. Therefore there is no problem with seeing lines on it.
Read HF scenario.
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Unread post by Raitei » January 13th, 2008, 12:18 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:That's the idea, using a God Hand when he was alive (that's why I said the scenario would use Shiki and Heracles from their respective timelines); I was clear when I said "Heracles the living being, not the Servant".
my point from the beginning too. however, hercules using god hand when he's alive doesn't mean he has a pretty messed up god hand; god hand was given by powerful greek gods, y'know ( zeus, I would assume? ), so its concept is probably still higher than that of mystic eyes.
Dante Obscuri wrote:
what i said MAY be possible (but only like 1%) in nasuverse (its not 100% sure he cant see dots), what you said wasnt possible at all in the nasuverse...thats the difference that i see/meant. but yes we both used hypotheticals, sorry for the misunderstanding.
My idea wasn't to come up with a possible scenario; I said from the beginning Shiki cannot kill Servants. The idea behind coming up with a hypothetical scenario basically was "Okay, if you'd like that to happen (which, is quite impossible), then this, and this should be this and that way".
my theory from the beginning is, no matter what, shiki cannot kill hercules + god hand.

@ kansho : please make sure you write the quote tags first and then followed by the spoiler tags next time. just a suggestion :P
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Unread post by serialies » January 13th, 2008, 1:43 am

Dante Obscuri wrote:
serialies wrote:weak god = crappy god hand (when herc = alive)
That's the idea, using a God Hand when he was alive (that's why I said the scenario would use Shiki and Heracles from their respective timelines); I was clear when I said "Heracles the living being, not the Servant".
i didnt mean god hand was crappy when herc = alive...i just mean that god hand dependant on the god that gave it to him
god hand (alive herc) = gift from gods

gods get power from belief
no belief = weak god
weak god = crappy god hand (when herc = alive)
that is what i posted before, just to show that god hand (herc alive) is still under the fame/belief system...although indirectly.
after herc dies, god hand becomes his NP, no longer needs the power of the gods, it needs its own seperate fame/belief (or herc needs is own fame/belief w/e) so it directly uses the fame/belief system.
I order the club sandwich all the time, but I'm not even a member. Man, I don't know how I get away with it.

Dante Obscuri
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Joined: December 26th, 2007, 2:40 am

Unread post by Dante Obscuri » January 13th, 2008, 4:20 am

serialies wrote:i didnt mean god hand was crappy when herc = alive...i just mean that god hand dependant on the god that gave it to him
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