Who you like more, Shiki or Shirou? [spoilers]

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Shiki or Shirou?

Shiki
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Shirou
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 7th, 2008, 12:00 am

gexer64 wrote:You have to consider: which route shirou is fighting, is it tsukihime shiki or Satsujinki, is it a head on fight or is shiki ambushing, and terrain.

All in all it comes down to who hits first. From what I've seen, Shiki will probably abuse the terrain, hopping off of walls and stuff, and hit.


Also for those who thought shirou defeated beserker, he didn't. He defeated black beserker. The differencing being that black beserker is blind. He had three lives already gone, and was distracted by Illya.

Shirou does not fight like shiki does. Shirou over powers with his projection. Shiki uses his brain a bit more because he cannot do that. Reread Kohaku's route when Shiki fights Akiha.
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » November 7th, 2008, 5:48 am

gexer64 wrote:
gexer64 wrote:You have to consider: which route shirou is fighting, is it tsukihime shiki or Satsujinki, is it a head on fight or is shiki ambushing, and terrain.

All in all it comes down to who hits first. From what I've seen, Shiki will probably abuse the terrain, hopping off of walls and stuff, and hit.


Also for those who thought shirou defeated beserker, he didn't. He defeated black beserker. The differencing being that black beserker is blind. He had three lives already gone, and was distracted by Illya.

Shirou does not fight like shiki does. Shirou over powers with his projection. Shiki uses his brain a bit more because he cannot do that. Reread Kohaku's route when Shiki fights Akiha.


agrees*

shiki uses tactics in fighting coz he knows that will power or strength alone would only lead him to nothing, he doesn't let his emotions overcome him and uses logic to beat the game. heck, he knows that he is being overpowered but still pawn them using his brain. like arc said, his MEoDP is useless when he even cant land a hit.
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Unread postby Midoryu » November 7th, 2008, 5:34 pm

T-MOON COMPLEX X 01

Has your Shiki vs Shirou battle in there
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Unread postby Veldril » November 7th, 2008, 5:57 pm

Midoryu wrote:T-MOON COMPLEX X 01

Has your Shiki vs Shirou battle in there


It's a doujin so we can't really count that scene.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 7th, 2008, 9:32 pm

Veldril wrote:
Midoryu wrote:T-MOON COMPLEX X 01

Has your Shiki vs Shirou battle in there


It's a doujin so we can't really count that scene.

but its probably the most realistic it can get

Although HF shiro probably could beat shiki, He has shown the ability to
Use nine-live blade works, Excalibur, Rho Aias, Project the sword of infinite prana of multidimensional worlds of zelretchness, Kansho and Byakua overedge, gained reinforcement/projection information such as "I am the Bone of my Sword" enhancement, and all around physical strength comparable to a servant

But obviously
It will cause shiro to die in the end
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Unread postby dead_lord_666 » November 7th, 2008, 11:02 pm

Shirou have my vote only for his performance in UBW and HF.
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 8th, 2008, 1:19 am

Rikh wrote:
Although HF shiro probably could beat shiki, He has shown the ability to
Use nine-live blade works, Excalibur, Rho Aias, Project the sword of infinite prana of multidimensional worlds of zelretchness, Kansho and Byakua overedge, gained reinforcement/projection information such as "I am the Bone of my Sword" enhancement, and all around physical strength comparable to a servant

But obviously
It will cause shiro to die in the end


The problem is, will Shiki get hit though. He is smart enough to retreat, and
Rho Aius, Zelrech and Kansho and Byakuya are worthless due to MEoDP. (They can destroy projections) Quite simply Shiki would force him to use a projection, reteat, wait for side effects, and then hit; similar to what happened in Kohaku's route.

UBW Shirou stands a much better chance against Shiki if only because of the Gatling Gun effect.
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Unread postby Divine » November 8th, 2008, 1:40 am

Well, Zelretch isn't a weapon in the first place. It allows the user to siphon magical energy from other dimensions. Thus, for Shirou, if he were able to use it to it's full potential, all it do for him would be to give him access to enough magical energy to trace anything/use nine lives blade works an unlimited amount of time/activate his reality marble. Yes, he still has a reality marble in HF, but knowing Archer's won't help him create his own spell since his internal world is no longer similar to Archer's.

Besides, HF Shirou gained all of the knowledge of Archer. If so the simple answer to beating Shiki would be Bow + Kaladabolg II + Broken Phantasm + Missing. Even if we don't know the exact side effects of destroying a traced Noble Phantasm, we do know that even if Archer's broken phantasm misses, the resulting shockwave is enough to both pierce Caster's barrier and cause significant damage to her body. Shiki who has no defenses to such an attack would lose.

UBW Shirou would be an interesting fight. The question would be, how many simultaneous projections can Shirou perform? Against Gilgamesh he only did them 1 at a time outside of UBW. In UBW he behaves a lot like Archer/Gilgamesh but casting UBW in the presence of Shiki would lead to death. If he can project multiple NP's then it would be simple to overwhelm Shiki but we do not know if he is truly capable of doing so without UBW support. I leave that question up to the audience. I would also contend that if you think that projecting multiple NPs would kill Shirou, then have Shirou project normal everyday swords. There is no need to use NPs against Shiki since Shiki would die to them all the same.

Fate Shirou is a toss up. Insta-tracing Avalon is cheap but if even the 5 sorceries can't touch one protected by Avalon, I doubt Shiki can kill Shirou while he is under the protection of Avalon. It is simply up to Shirou to kill Shiki before Avalon wears off. That would be the unknown factor. I would say that Fate Shirou is weak in combat technique and without any other weapons at his disposal, he would be unable to beat Shiki.
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 8th, 2008, 9:58 pm

Divine wrote:
Well, Zelretch isn't a weapon in the first place. It allows the user to siphon magical energy from other dimensions. Thus, for Shirou, if he were able to use it to it's full potential, all it do for him would be to give him access to enough magical energy to trace anything/use nine lives blade works an unlimited amount of time/activate his reality marble. Yes, he still has a reality marble in HF, but knowing Archer's won't help him create his own spell since his internal world is no longer similar to Archer's.

Besides, HF Shirou gained all of the knowledge of Archer. If so the simple answer to beating Shiki would be Bow + Kaladabolg II + Broken Phantasm + Missing. Even if we don't know the exact side effects of destroying a traced Noble Phantasm, we do know that even if Archer's broken phantasm misses, the resulting shockwave is enough to both pierce Caster's barrier and cause significant damage to her body. Shiki who has no defenses to such an attack would lose.

UBW Shirou would be an interesting fight. The question would be, how many simultaneous projections can Shirou perform? Against Gilgamesh he only did them 1 at a time outside of UBW. In UBW he behaves a lot like Archer/Gilgamesh but casting UBW in the presence of Shiki would lead to death. If he can project multiple NP's then it would be simple to overwhelm Shiki but we do not know if he is truly capable of doing so without UBW support. I leave that question up to the audience. I would also contend that if you think that projecting multiple NPs would kill Shirou, then have Shirou project normal everyday swords. There is no need to use NPs against Shiki since Shiki would die to them all the same.

Fate Shirou is a toss up. Insta-tracing Avalon is cheap but if even the 5 sorceries can't touch one protected by Avalon, I doubt Shiki can kill Shirou while he is under the protection of Avalon. It is simply up to Shirou to kill Shiki before Avalon wears off. That would be the unknown factor. I would say that Fate Shirou is weak in combat technique and without any other weapons at his disposal, he would be unable to beat Shiki.


It's called hiding. Shirou can't shoot what he doesn't see since that would be a waste of a projection. Shiki is pretty good at hiding. Just Akiha.

You have read kohaku's route right? (not to be sarcastic)
Last edited by gexer64 on November 9th, 2008, 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 9th, 2008, 12:12 am

Whoops, double posted.....

This post is a lie.
Last edited by gexer64 on November 9th, 2008, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby shirou12 » November 9th, 2008, 3:19 am

well in my point of view,

Shirou = Archer while Shiki = Assassin,

So if shirou cant detect shiki at a right timing he will be killed, if shiki cant pull out strategies he will be killed. thats a good way to put it.
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 9th, 2008, 10:57 am

I don't know how the discussion shifted from "Who do you like more?" to "Who is stronger in battle?", but...

I personally like Shirou more. Both have their advantages and disadvantages in battle, but I like Shirou's personality more, regardless of which route.
I think it is very noble to pursue his ideal regardless of everything else, be it to save all people (Fate route) or to rescue the person you love (Heaven's Feel).
Well, it is greatly simplified if I only point out this aspect, but in general I think Shirou's personality is more "complex" than that of Shiki, and Shirou himself is much more deep-going than Shiki, too.
This kind of reflects "Tsukihime vs. Fate/stay nigh", too. I mean, both stories are great, but Tsukihime is more focused on action, mystery and such "entertaining" things while Fate/stay night has those aspects, too AND additionally is more deep-going (one might even say philosophic), represented by the respective protagonist.
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Unread postby Undream » November 9th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Gunbladeuser wrote:I don't know how the discussion shifted from "Who do you like more?" to "Who is stronger in battle?", but...

I personally like Shirou more. Both have their advantages and disadvantages in battle, but I like Shirou's personality more, regardless of which route.
I think it is very noble to pursue his ideal regardless of everything else, be it to save all people (Fate route) or to rescue the person you love (Heaven's Feel).
Well, it is greatly simplified if I only point out this aspect, but in general I think Shirou's personality is more "complex" than that of Shiki, and Shirou himself is much more deep-going than Shiki, too.
This kind of reflects "Tsukihime vs. Fate/stay nigh", too. I mean, both stories are great, but Tsukihime is more focused on action, mystery and such "entertaining" things while Fate/stay night has those aspects, too AND additionally is more deep-going (one might even say philosophic), represented by the respective protagonist.


I woudnt say philosophic, since it doesnt really do a good work at that. It might try, but it doesnt really succeed at it.
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Shirou

Unread postby BloodRivers » November 9th, 2008, 5:07 pm

I'm very much like Shirou, it's not even funny. I'm stubborn, won't give up and sometimes will even persist even in a situation I know is utterly hopeless. Not surprisingly, this stubbornness has cost me a few relationships. That aside, I'm definitely like Shirou when it comes to a fight - even in a situation I know I might get messed up, that doesn't detour me if I've got my back to the wall. And, if I had Shirou's ability, I'd probably follow his ideals pretty close to the letter.

That's probably the biggest attraction I had to F/SN, outside the great fantasy content, was the feeling that whenever I was faced with a dilemma (choice) it actually really felt like it was me answering them.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 9th, 2008, 5:23 pm

stamina wise Shiro and Shiki are at the same level

At least their tolerance for pain is...
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 9th, 2008, 7:06 pm

Undream wrote:I woudnt say philosophic, since it doesnt really do a good work at that. It might try, but it doesnt really succeed at it.

For me, it does succeed at it. Tsukihime made me feel with the characters - and some other stories did that, too. But there aren't many stories that really make you re-think your life, that get you to think about a lot of things you never thought about before and that give you a lot of approaches for it. That's something Fate/say night respectively Shirou has accomplished - in my opinion.
Well... that said, I guess those things are still heavily dependent on one's own perception. Even the greatest work with the greatest intentions in it loses them if they are not noticed - at least for those not noticing.
And in order to prevent misunderstandings:
Yes, it works vice-versa, too. A miserable work can become really great if people perceive it that way.
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Unread postby Shirou » November 11th, 2008, 1:41 am

My opinion on fsn phylosophy: it's cheap and fails at it. except Archer, Archer is an interesting character.
what is really cheap is that when Shirou learns that Sakura is killing people she stops doing it.
It would have been interestin how would Shirou react by knowing that he knowingly allowed Sakura to kill people.
before was different, he didn't know.
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 11th, 2008, 1:17 pm

Shirou wrote:what is really cheap is that when Shirou learns that Sakura is killing people she stops doing it.

Well... she realizes at that time that she is responsible for the shadow killing the people. That way she was able to "control" it and refrained from killing people while she had her sanity.


It would have been interestin how would Shirou react by knowing that he knowingly allowed Sakura to kill people.
before was different, he didn't know.

That was a little bit the case when you got to Sakura in the end without defeating Saber. When he arrives, Sakura is killing her sister.
Anyway, Shirou would have to bear it. He chose Sakura over everything else, so he still would try to save her, but he won't kill her. At one time during the route he considered killing her, but ever since he let that chance slip (well, Rider would have killed him anyway) and chose Sakura, his future actions were pretty much determined.
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Unread postby Shikiller » November 12th, 2008, 12:40 am

Shirou is a sexist moron
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 12th, 2008, 2:10 pm

That depends on your point of view. You could also say that he has strong protective instincts, even the more if girls are involved.
I think you would also like to fight for a girl you like instead of letting her fight, or not?

About that strategy thing... well, that can't be helped. xD
He lacks experiences and it is quite natural that he therefore hasn't got a lot of good strategies to begin with.
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