Who you like more, Shiki or Shirou? [spoilers]

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Shiki or Shirou?

Shiki
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60%
Shirou
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40%
 
Total votes : 285

Unread postby kaerstan01 » November 12th, 2008, 8:44 pm

Gunbladeuser wrote:That depends on your point of view. You could also say that he has strong protective instincts, even the more if girls are involved.
I think you would also like to fight for a girl you like instead of letting her fight, or not?

About that strategy thing... well, that can't be helped. xD
He lacks experiences and it is quite natural that he therefore hasn't got a lot of good strategies to begin with.


not really, if you know that a girl have this some sorta obligation and belief, and if she have the potential to do something that she intends to do, and if there is a valid reason behind her actions. why would you stop her? isn't that just being narrow minded and selfish? its like ripping off a womans role and identity. ruins a womans self esteem imo

in this case, saber had her own problems and dilemmas to face, and instead thinking on how to protect her, he should be thinking on how to help her instead

an example of this is shiki and arcs fight with nrvnqsr

maybe shirou should stop thinking about others too much and rather, understand what people really feel

shiki might be selfish on dealing with others but he tends to reflect on it afterwards

really now, shirou lacks big time in the thinking department and is easily overwhelmed by his emotions(shounen genre,anyone?) while shiki on the other hand does a lot of thinking(and maybe too much lol)
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Unread postby Katze » November 12th, 2008, 9:43 pm

Well I have just registered, and only to answer this poll, :D I choose shirou,

mostly because he is more human than shiki, yes, shiki can go anytime and beat up shirou to death, but that's exactly why I choose shirou, even when he's aware than he's nothing more than an ordinary human, he still goes out and fight for in what he believes, and not only in the two first routes, in HF, even when he turn his back to his ideal (or his father ideal), he still is fighting for his "new" ideal, I really like shirou for that, he's a simple human who was caught in a "wrong place, wrong time" situation, and still manages to keep alive until the end (well, except in "cherry blossoms' dream"), and welll, that's why I choose him.

BTW, why isn't kokutou in this poll? (ok, ok, maybe he will be the hero with less votes, but I like him too :D )

PD.-I'm sorry if you don't understand very well what I have wrote, or if there are some gramatical errors, English is not my native language
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 9:51 pm

Katze wrote:Well I have just registered, and only to answer this poll, :D I choose shirou,

and still manages to keep alive until the end (well, except in the countless dead ends), and welll, that's why I choose him.



Thoroughly fixed...

I think shirou's overprotective trait stems from his ideal of being an hero of justice. As i see it, he grabs whatever excuse floats into his mind to help others.
At least i dont remember Shirou trying to protect the women as much in HF, the exception being Sakura
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 12th, 2008, 9:54 pm

Katze wrote:Well I have just registered, and only to answer this poll, :D I choose shirou,

mostly because he is more human than shiki, yes, shiki can go anytime and beat up shirou to death, but that's exactly why I choose shirou, even when he's aware than he's nothing more than an ordinary human, he still goes out and fight for in what he believes, and not only in the two first routes, in HF, even when he turn his back to his ideal (or his father ideal), he still is fighting for his "new" ideal, I really like shirou for that, he's a simple human who was caught in a "wrong place, wrong time" situation, and still manages to keep alive until the end (well, except in "cherry blossoms' dream"), and welll, that's why I choose him.

BTW, why isn't kokutou in this poll? (ok, ok, maybe he will be the hero with less votes, but I like him too :D )

PD.-I'm sorry if you don't understand very well what I have wrote, or if there are some gramatical errors, English is not my native language


Shirou is more human than Shiki? How can anyone believe that?

Shiki rationalizes, he does the right thing, not what he "Thinks" is the right thing, but the ACTUAL right thing. He acts more down to earth, I find it to be just bursting "Normal guy"

Shirou is so un-human like. He'll die for perfect strangers, preach the wrong ideals, and he'll try to get himself killed, JUST so he can be a Superhero. Seriously, almost no one had to die in Fate Stay / Night, if it wasn't for Shirou, it would of probably turned out alot better. Shirou has his own "Ideal" justice, disregarding peoples opinions. I'm sorry, but this guy is like a Christian, he won't listen to reason and will over-write anyones ideals with his own and ignore them. I really can't stand ignorant people like Shirou. Any kid that has reached 15, let alone the age Shirou is, should have a pretty good grasp of the world.

Plainly, this is what I see.

Shiki looks at the world at how it is, and accepts this, while also doing the greater good if he can.

Shirou looks at the world, and says NO, EVERYONE IS NOT DOING IT HOW I WANT IT TO BE!(Basically, being an asshat), and tries to start situations where he can act as a Hero.

In real life, I'd fight in place of a Woman - But Saber is a servant, ok, she's a freaking Heroic Spirit called by a MASSIVE LUMP of Magical Energy, she is DESIGNED to fight against Servants, and this is all CLEARLY explained to him. He pretty much rips everything about her to shreds and tries to make her seem like she's worthless. I'll open a door for a woman, I'll push her out of the way of a gunshot or sword swipe, whatever - but NOT IF SHE can survive this and come out without much injury - I can't, I'll die, and she'll disappear, so logically, me getting killed to save her = Pointless. Shirou comes to understand this...BUT WAY TO LATE.
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 10:13 pm

While I agree with you, i dont find Shirou as terrible as you.
Basically Shirou describes himself when he says

"In order to let my body live, my heart died" or something to that effect.
He was so traumatized by the fire that he basically 'lost' his personality. Thats why he is compared to a walking corpse, he practically became' the desire of protecting everyone' embodied. His extreme guilt for surviving at the expense of all the others did that to him.
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 12th, 2008, 11:08 pm

kaerstan01 wrote:in this case, saber had her own problems and dilemmas to face, and instead thinking on how to protect her, he should be thinking on how to help her instead

As I said... that's simply a different point of view.
Shirou does want to help her, but he just doesn't realize that his way of helping her doesn't really help her.
Plus you have to consider the situation:
He just gets thrown into this Grail War and doesn't know a thing about it; later he does let Saber fight etc., so... yeah, it's not like he's being stubborn in this case (though he generally indeed is known to be stubborn).

Btw, you're contradicting yourself quite a lot in your post. ^^"
You're saying Shirou's selfish but thinking too much about others. Then again he's thinking too little and being controlled by his emotions too much while Shiki is being more thoughtful?
Eh... or did I misunderstand you? ^^"

Undream wrote:I think shirou's overprotective trait stems from his ideal of being an hero of justice. As i see it, he grabs whatever excuse floats into his mind to help others.

Do you really need a REASON/excuse for helping others?

At least i dont remember Shirou trying to protect the women as much in HF, the exception being Sakura

Well... in the beginning he does try to protect Saber (well, up to a certain day the routes are quite similar, so....).
However, he learns quickly who needs to be protected and who does not need to be protected. That said, Saber and Rin are fine by themselves since they can fight quite well (and Rin also had Archer up to a certain point).
The one that needs most protection is definitely Sakura (well... but he really messed up with that and barely managed to protect her in the end... or not, depending on your end), but he also tries to protect Ilya.

@ Mkilbride:
Beside the things Undream already said, I'd also like to add that his ideal is in my opinion very noble.
Of course you can call it really idiotic since he risks his life for others, but in my opinion it is still very noble.
I mean... he would sacrifice his life for those of other people. And the purpose isn't for being a superhero, I think you got the order herer wrong.
He wants to become a superhero in order to save others, and not to save others to become a superhero.

That said, I don't think you can really change something if you accept it. You said Shiki accepts the world as it is, but that would also mean that he is not trying to change it to the better either.
Why would you want to change something you're satisfied with? Accepting something means being satisfied with it, or not?

That's why I think it is alright that Shirou doesn't COMPLETELY accept things as they are.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 12th, 2008, 11:14 pm

Shirou is not noble at all. As others have stated, he himself has no reason why he does it. He's a blank slate. He's driven by the need to think HE has to, because of the fire.

So either have Shirou(Fate, UBW) who lets everyone live, but himself, acting like a jackarse.

Or we have Heavens Feel Shirou, who will let hundreds die for the girl he loves. He's a bastard, either he saves everyone, or he lets everyone die. He doesn't try to find a middle grounds.

His "Noble" idea, is merely he feels he has to, and if you feel you HAVE to do something, then it is not Noble.


If he did it out of the Kindness of his heart, then sure, he'd be noble. No, he's doing it out of a sense of duty, and being naive.

Shiki, on the other hand, he meets you in the middle ground. He's not going to go out of his way to help you, but if he can help, he'll help.

The difference is, Shiki finds and stops trouble.

Shirou makes, escalates, and eventually stops trouble after the damage is already to great. All for his "Ego"
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Unread postby Undream » November 12th, 2008, 11:15 pm

Protecting and overprotecting are not the same...
And shirou is certainly the latter
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » November 12th, 2008, 11:33 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Shirou is not noble at all. As others have stated, he himself has no reason why he does it. He's a blank slate. He's driven by the need to think HE has to, because of the fire.

That's in the beginning. But as the plot goes on, he himself also develops so that you can't put it all down to that great fire. It indeed has affected him a lot, but that's not everything. To give a simple example:
In the Heaven's Feel Route he chooses to protect Sakura, and that's certainly not because of the fire.

Or we have Heavens Feel Shirou, who will let hundreds die for the girl he loves. He's a bastard, either he saves everyone, or he lets everyone die. He doesn't try to find a middle grounds.

That's what makes him special. I mean... okay, these "middle grounds" aren't bad.
But what's wrong with such "extreme grounds"?
Why is it wrong in your opinion to try saving everyone (which of course is impossible) or saving the one you love no matter how high the price is?

His "Noble" idea, is merely he feels he has to, and if you feel you HAVE to do something, then it is not Noble.
If he did it out of the Kindness of his heart, then sure, he'd be noble. No, he's doing it out of a sense of duty, and being naive.

I think "duty" is too exaggerated, at least in the case of saving the girl he loves.
Furthermore, can you seriously say that you'd save the girl you love just out of KINDNESS? o__O"
Of course he FEELS he has to save her because he LOVES her.

The way you put it, it sounds like he should think "Oh, well... I ~could~ save some people because I somehow pity them. But if I don't manage to succeed, then it's fine, too".
With that attitude you won't be able to really do anything because you're not taking the things you're doing seriously.
Imagine something you'd like to accomplish in your life. Why do you want to do it? Certainly not just out of a whim and certainly you would pursue this aim of yours seriously (-> which will cause a feeling of having to succeed at it).

Shiki, on the other hand, he meets you in the middle ground. He's not going to go out of his way to help you, but if he can help, he'll help.

Yeah, that's fine, too. But that's not better than Shirou's ideals (and not worse, either).
There are certain things only Shiki-like people can do, and there are things only Shirou-like people can do.

The difference is, Shiki finds and stops trouble.
Shirou makes, escalates, and eventually stops trouble after the damage is already to great. All for his "Ego"

Well... mind explaining that a little more detailled with some examples? Otherwise I don't really get why you're thinking this...

Undream wrote:Protecting and overprotecting are not the same...
And shirou is certainly the latter

Well... I don't think you can generalize that. If you're speaking about Shirou from Fate, I'd mostly agree with you.
But as for the other two routes, I'd disagree.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » November 13th, 2008, 1:21 am

indeed..shirou is sometimes extremely overprotective and seems to be suffocating with his own ideals..he tends to follow his heart than following his brain in which i think everyone agrees is the opposite of shiki..
i voted for shiki, but i think that shirou shouldnt be condemned that hard..he is doing something in what he believes and would die for it..a little extreme at times but he makes the effort to fix things..being the sole survivor does make you feel very guilty and he finds peace by doing his best to help others as he is powerless to do so when the big fire occured..so, shirou is not fully to be blamed on his 'kamikaze' attitude.. :roll:
not a solid arguement but it seems that as a whole, shiki is indeed a better person..i dont think explanation is needed as there are many post backing this.. :wink:
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Unread postby kaerstan01 » November 13th, 2008, 7:07 am

Gunbladeuser wrote:
kaerstan01 wrote:in this case, saber had her own problems and dilemmas to face, and instead thinking on how to protect her, he should be thinking on how to help her instead

As I said... that's simply a different point of view.
Shirou does want to help her, but he just doesn't realize that his way of helping her doesn't really help her.
Plus you have to consider the situation:
He just gets thrown into this Grail War and doesn't know a thing about it; later he does let Saber fight etc., so... yeah, it's not like he's being stubborn in this case (though he generally indeed is known to be stubborn).

Btw, you're contradicting yourself quite a lot in your post. ^^"
You're saying Shirou's selfish but thinking too much about others. Then again he's thinking too little and being controlled by his emotions too much while Shiki is being more thoughtful?
Eh... or did I misunderstand you? ^^"


yup, you did misunderstand me ^^

selfish in a way that he doesn't consider other peoples feelings and opinion and just gets into a selfish conclusion that he needs to protect and sacrifice himself for the sake of others and in this case, shiki is the one being more thoughtful

and about the situation, shiki was also thrown into something that he didn't ask for, as a matter if fact, hes the type of person who hates getting into troubles and yet he was mature enough to comprehend and act accordingly to a situation.

shirou = saint / hero / hero gone berserk for a loved one(HF route)
shiki = just your everyday average normal guy with a weird eye that turns into a complete badass with a strategy when things go tight
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 14th, 2008, 5:10 am

let me interject my summary here:

shirou goes through the traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and hence gets broken and tries to help everyone while being counterintuitive.

shiki goes through near-death experience after traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and doesn't get broken, doesn't act counterintuitive to his beliefs, and lives normally above and beyond all that.

in terms of mental fortitude alone, i think that says it all.
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Unread postby Veldril » November 14th, 2008, 2:42 pm

NonExistence wrote:let me interject my summary here:

shirou goes through the traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and hence gets broken and tries to help everyone while being counterintuitive.

shiki goes through near-death experience after traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and doesn't get broken, doesn't act counterintuitive to his beliefs, and lives normally above and beyond all that.

in terms of mental fortitude alone, i think that says it all.


Yeah, he goes through Nanaya slaughter case but he lives most of his life time forgetting it. And in the beginning, he even felt broken that if it's not because of Hisui he would be unlikely to open himself to the world again.

When Shiki goes through "death" experience and manage to come back, everyone else is fine (except Kohaku who got abused since the beginning and Akiha who share him life force). Makihisa made him forgot everything about Nanaya and another Shiki. He would also broke down again if he didn't met Aoko.

I think Shiki is a little bit luckier than Shirou that he met Aoko. With her advices he can live himself down to earth. Shirou, however, is saved by someone who's already broken or empty like Kiritsugu. But if you look closely, I would say there are things that Shiki and Shirou are similar. They tried to protect what are important for them, regardless of their lives. Not only Shirou that willing to sacrifice his life for someone else, Shiki manage to kill himself once to save Akiha too.

But if you really ask me, I would vote for Shiki because I like how he thinks.
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Unread postby Rikh » November 14th, 2008, 9:21 pm

Veldril wrote:
NonExistence wrote:let me interject my summary here:

shirou goes through the traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and hence gets broken and tries to help everyone while being counterintuitive.

shiki goes through near-death experience after traumatic incident of living while everyone else dies, and doesn't get broken, doesn't act counterintuitive to his beliefs, and lives normally above and beyond all that.

in terms of mental fortitude alone, i think that says it all.


Yeah, he goes through Nanaya slaughter case but he lives most of his life time forgetting it. And in the beginning, he even felt broken that if it's not because of Hisui he would be unlikely to open himself to the world again.

When Shiki goes through "death" experience and manage to come back, everyone else is fine (except Kohaku who got abused since the beginning and Akiha who share him life force). Makihisa made him forgot everything about Nanaya and another Shiki. He would also broke down again if he didn't met Aoko.

I think Shiki is a little bit luckier than Shirou that he met Aoko. With her advices he can live himself down to earth. Shirou, however, is saved by someone who's already broken or empty like Kiritsugu. But if you look closely, I would say there are things that Shiki and Shirou are similar. They tried to protect what are important for them, regardless of their lives. Not only Shirou that willing to sacrifice his life for someone else, Shiki manage to kill himself once to save Akiha too.

But if you really ask me, I would vote for Shiki because I like how he thinks.


That being said

If shiki's and Shiro's roles were switched, it would not be all too different
Shiki would fight the Holy grail war as a hero of justic with MEoDP... maybe toned down a bit more though
Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)
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Unread postby gexer64 » November 15th, 2008, 3:05 am

Rikh wrote:Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)


I always wondered about that. I have heard that arc would die from gae bolg. But yet she had her body completely destroyed by shiki and couldn't regenerate it. So how can Gae bolg kill arc if that bloody mess couldn't?
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Unread postby Undream » November 15th, 2008, 3:18 am

gexer64 wrote:
Rikh wrote:Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)


I always wondered about that. I have heard that arc would die from gae bolg. But yet she had her body completely destroyed by shiki and couldn't regenerate it. So how can Gae bolg kill arc if that bloody mess couldn't?


True. the effect of the MEoDP is ten thousand times stronger than that of Gae Bolg.
I very much doubt Gae Bolg would completely eliminate her...
"...One must wait continuously, one must pursue endlessly.
They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby Raitei » November 15th, 2008, 5:20 am

Undream wrote:
gexer64 wrote:
Rikh wrote:Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)


I always wondered about that. I have heard that arc would die from gae bolg. But yet she had her body completely destroyed by shiki and couldn't regenerate it. So how can Gae bolg kill arc if that bloody mess couldn't?


True. the effect of the MEoDP is ten thousand times stronger than that of Gae Bolg.
I very much doubt Gae Bolg would completely eliminate her...
well, this all comes down to the question "will arc die if her heart is pierced?". no more, no less. :P

note : servants do die when their hearts are pierced. (one of the spirit cores besides head)
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Unread postby Rikh » November 15th, 2008, 7:53 am

Raitei wrote:
Undream wrote:
gexer64 wrote:[quote="Rikh"]
Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)


I always wondered about that. I have heard that arc would die from gae bolg. But yet she had her body completely destroyed by shiki and couldn't regenerate it. So how can Gae bolg kill arc if that bloody mess couldn't?


True. the effect of the MEoDP is ten thousand times stronger than that of Gae Bolg.
I very much doubt Gae Bolg would completely eliminate her...
well, this all comes down to the question "will arc die if her heart is pierced?". no more, no less. :P

note : servants do die when their hearts are pierced. (one of the spirit cores besides head)
[/quote]

also contrary to the popular vampire lore that a stake through the heart kills the beast
(although i think i recall arc saying that anybody would die from that)

So you can debate it i guess :)
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Unread postby Undream » November 15th, 2008, 1:40 pm

How can she die from an impaled heart when she doesnt die when her whole body (including said heart) gets destroyed AND cut (in the MEoDP way)
I mean, at most Gae Bolg would have the same effect of her not being able to heal, but she can just create another heart (since she can create another body)
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They must realize that it was impossible to succeed yet
at the same time be capable of enduring patiently.
Is that... the story of a dream that shouldn't be waited upon?..."
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Unread postby Vayth » November 16th, 2008, 12:43 pm

Raitei wrote:
Undream wrote:
gexer64 wrote:[quote="Rikh"]
Shiro would fight Nrvnsqr and...SHIRO??? and win through tracing something magnificent (shiro also would probably kill arc by tracing gae bolg or something...)


I always wondered about that. I have heard that arc would die from gae bolg. But yet she had her body completely destroyed by shiki and couldn't regenerate it. So how can Gae bolg kill arc if that bloody mess couldn't?


True. the effect of the MEoDP is ten thousand times stronger than that of Gae Bolg.
I very much doubt Gae Bolg would completely eliminate her...
well, this all comes down to the question "will arc die if her heart is pierced?". no more, no less. :P

note : servants do die when their hearts are pierced. (one of the spirit cores besides head)
[/quote]

So, I think whoever able to kill arc is greater, huh?

well, I think even vampire has something that would kill her.. And since shirou is able to copy anything, I think he could project even Ciel's 7th scripture (if she meet ciel, of course..).
I dont know whether this will able to kill arc not, but it's ciel strongest weapon, right? (& she's an exorcist, killing vampire would be her job)
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