Could have ...? [spoilers]

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Wild Goose
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Could have ...? [spoilers]

Unread post by Wild Goose » June 11th, 2007, 12:59 pm

As it says. For an already-weakened Archer to defeat Berserker 6 times before snuffing it is pretty good, IMO, so then I started thinking: Would it have been possible for Archer to beat Berserker? And if so, how?

We know for sure that that Archer as he appears in Fate couldn't do it... but what if he had been summoned properly (full memory, could use Unlimited Blade Works from the start) and hadn't take that wound protecting Rin?

Eriol-kun
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Unread post by Eriol-kun » June 11th, 2007, 4:10 pm

It's hard for me to reply because:

1) I only speak engrish and I've read the Fate translation.
2) Maybe something will come out in Unlimited Blade Works-- and I'd be prone to looking it up, and
3) There's probably spoiler content.

So sit tight and let's wait for the translation to come out. :)

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Re: Could Archer have beaten Berserker?

Unread post by Silverman » June 11th, 2007, 6:40 pm

Wild Goose wrote:As it says. For an already-weakened Archer to defeat Berserker 6 times before snuffing it is pretty good, IMO, so then I started thinking: Would it have been possible for Archer to beat Berserker? And if so, how?

We know for sure that that Archer as he appears in Fate couldn't do it... but what if he had been summoned properly (full memory, could use Unlimited Blade Works from the start) and hadn't take that wound protecting Rin?
He has ragained his memory since he saw Rin and after the first day of summoning (It was stated in UBW.)
I think his wound has recovered already but he is just faking it. Anyway, an Archer killing Berserker 6 times in a row is amazing. That's pretty much the best he could do.

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Unread post by Elvendagger » June 11th, 2007, 6:48 pm

Well, there's no way of telling if the wound healed or not... I guess we'll need to go through UBW and see... But I think he could have done better... :D

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......

Unread post by Impractic_Shiki » June 11th, 2007, 8:02 pm

Anyway, an Archer killing Berserker 6 times in a row is amazing. That's pretty much the best he could do.
► Show Spoiler

Elvendagger
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Unread post by Elvendagger » June 11th, 2007, 8:21 pm

And Rin wasn't even with Archer during his fight with Berserker... So he really could have done better...

Wild Goose
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Re: Could Archer have beaten Berserker?

Unread post by Wild Goose » June 11th, 2007, 11:54 pm

Silverman wrote:
Wild Goose wrote:As it says. For an already-weakened Archer to defeat Berserker 6 times before snuffing it is pretty good, IMO, so then I started thinking: Would it have been possible for Archer to beat Berserker? And if so, how?

We know for sure that that Archer as he appears in Fate couldn't do it... but what if he had been summoned properly (full memory, could use Unlimited Blade Works from the start) and hadn't take that wound protecting Rin?
He has ragained his memory since he saw Rin and after the first day of summoning (It was stated in UBW.)
I think his wound has recovered already but he is just faking it. Anyway, an Archer killing Berserker 6 times in a row is amazing. That's pretty much the best he could do.
Hmmm, so he was faking memory loss....

Considering everything, assuming that ingame he used similar methods to the anime, he went with sniping with Caladbolg, then a series of Kansho & Byakuya combos and more sniping (the Fate route implies that he didn't use Unlimited Blade Works). If he'd traced Caliburn and cut Berserker with it, that'd be 7 times Berserker was killed, and then the sniping and Kansho & Byakuya combos to finish him off... on the other hand, I'm nut sure if he could trace Caliburn outside his Reality Marble.

Still, I heard from a friend who reads Japanese that
► Show Spoiler
... so maybe if he uses UBW first, traces Caliburn and slashes Berserker... then maybe he'd have to spam Broken Phantasms at him...

I think Archer's chances would go up if he could draw the fight over several engagements (with time to rest/recharge/heal), instead of one battle. A fully-healed Berserker at 6 lives is not quite a fully-healed Berserker at 12 lives.

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Unread post by Message » June 12th, 2007, 9:41 am

You guys are really edging on huge spoilers here. I've tagged the thread, try to be more careful next time.

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Re: ......

Unread post by Silverman » June 13th, 2007, 5:19 am

Sorry Message, I'll be careful.
Impractic_Shiki wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Well...
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by Enerccio » June 14th, 2007, 3:05 pm

Elvendagger wrote:Well, there's no way of telling if the wound healed or not... I guess we'll need to go through UBW and see... But I think he could have done better... :D
► Show Spoiler

Elvendagger
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Unread post by Elvendagger » June 14th, 2007, 6:32 pm

Yeah, I know... So just like I said - we'll just have to wait and see... 8)

Wild Goose
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Re: ......

Unread post by Wild Goose » June 15th, 2007, 6:40 am

Silverman wrote:Sorry Message, I'll be careful.
Impractic_Shiki wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Well...
► Show Spoiler
That makes sense. Berserker dies from an A-rank Noble Phantasm, so it would all be over in one salvo if he was held by Enkidu and blasted with a NP barrage.

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Unread post by md » June 15th, 2007, 8:51 pm

As I perceived from the anime, Berserker doesn't really kill him, but rather Archer runs out of mana and dissolves. After the clash, Berserker is the one covered in blades. Archer still has his grin.

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Unread post by Elvendagger » June 15th, 2007, 9:35 pm

Wow... didn't know that... so then if Rin wouldn't have gone with Shirou, Archer could have beaten Berserker... Damn u, Rin! :roll:

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Re: Could Archer have beaten Berserker?

Unread post by Ephyon » June 15th, 2007, 11:25 pm

Wild Goose wrote: so maybe if he uses UBW first, traces Caliburn and slashes Berserker... then maybe he'd have to spam Broken Phantasms at him...
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by Qaenyin Angelblade » June 16th, 2007, 1:33 am

In his reality marble, assuming he didnt have to worry about mana problems, Archer could probably kill Berserker.

In the interlude in the Fate route I got the impression that berserker had his butt handed to him and archer simply "ran out of gas" so to speak. Berserker could barely move after fighting Archer in the castle.

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Unread post by chasmirror » June 22nd, 2007, 1:38 am

Actually, Archer was defeated by Berserker in Fate route, not just had his mana depleted.

Everyone is forgetting how powerful Berserker is, and that his God Hand armor becomes immune of the attack after he is killed by it once. In other words, if you kill him one way, you can't kill him(although some damage can be done) again with the same method again. Injured and not fully able, Archer had no chance against Berserker.

IF Archer was healthy and fully supplied of mana, yes, he could beat him, but only under right circumstances. Preferrably with long enough distance to shoot him from afar, and enough time allowed to him to chant his UBW spell. Without Enkidu in his arsenal(Archer can trace shields and armors at a greater mana cost, but Enkidu falls under neither category), Archer wouldn't be able to restrain Berserker long enough in close proximity.

In summary, a healthy Archer has a good chance against Berserker under right circumstances, but not in a close fight.

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Unread post by Xavier » June 22nd, 2007, 1:40 am

chasmirror wrote: In summary, a healthy Archer has a good chance against Berserker under right circumstances, but not in a close fight.
That's why he is an "Archer" in the first place. =P

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 22nd, 2007, 1:19 am

My personal hypothesis is rather weak, but I am chucking it out anyway.
I kinda thought that Archer held back in the fight with Berserker. If he completely demolished Berserker with UBW or other uber crazy attacks, then Ilya will be left unguarded and becoming an easy target for Gil, or other servants who knew her identity as the embodiment of the Grail. I was under the impression that Archer knew Ilya and wouldn't want to harm her. However, Archer didn't just simply surrender because that would place Rin under risk of being slaughtered by a psychotic-bloodthirsty Ilya. So I guess Archer killing Berserker 6 times was a kind of compromise, not hurting Ilya or Rin. Personally, I agree with the Archer funs here, he can totally kick Berserker's butt if he went all out. I mean, come on, I heard Shirou beat the Black Berserker with just Archer's arm, heck, the complete Archer will definitly turn Berserker into fine dust.

There, I have unleashed my crack-pot theory and ready for the criticisms of the fellow Type-Moon-ologists, lol.

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Unread post by DarkEyes » July 23rd, 2007, 5:32 am

Nice theory ,man... Pretty solid :D Though I'm not that sure about the Ilya part :P

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