Who would you have for a Servant?

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Unread postby Raitei » December 30th, 2008, 9:34 am

Watashimo wrote:I'm not sure how thats not the same concept. Perhaps a person wields a great weapon and saves the world. The weapons is the greatest, not the person. Who the hero is is based on the perception of the world, not humanity. People would indeed consider Tony Stark the hero, but they would also consider the wielder of the weapon the hero. The machine performed the deed, as did the weapon. It was because of the machine the world was saved, it was because of the weapon the person could save the world. Even the creator of the greatest weapon doesn't become the hero, the weapon does.
so you're using the "the hero is not the swordsmith, but the swordsman who wields the sword" analogy. but you must consider this : machines without ai is just an empty shell without consciousness. they merely perform the actions they're programmed. they're not wielders of a weapon, but the weapons themselves. so the hero would be their creators and programmers.
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Unread postby logos » December 30th, 2008, 10:07 am

Watashimo wrote:
Raitei wrote:
Watashimo wrote:Eh, not exactly.

[quote]f the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit is the gun itself under the terms of ?the most excellent weapon of its time?.


Same concept.
nope, that quote is off-base. this is not a question about canon sources concerning modern weaponry for a heroic spirit. imagine a machine, which could move by itself but has no consciousness, which was programmed to save the world. in the end, who did save the world? the programmer, not the machine.

e.g. tony stark made an armour which could be remote controlled or programmed to do his bidding. the armour in question then kicks some bad ass and saved the world, in a sense. who is the hero? stark, that is.


I'm not sure how thats not the same concept. Perhaps a person wields a great weapon and saves the world. The weapons is the greatest, not the person. Who the hero is is based on the perception of the world, not humanity. People would indeed consider Tony Stark the hero, but they would also consider the wielder of the weapon the hero. The machine performed the deed, as did the weapon. It was because of the machine the world was saved, it was because of the weapon the person could save the world. Even the creator of the greatest weapon doesn't become the hero, the weapon does.[/quote]


wouldn't the creator or controller be the hero and the weapon his/her noble phantasm?

even a pre-programed weapon is only a weapon wielded by the one who programed it, if the weapon has a true ai things becomes more complicated, but as long as it does not i'd say its pretty clear its only a noble phantasm...

by your reasoning king Arthur for example wouldn't be a hero either since he could not do many of the things he did without Excalibur, so Excalibur would be the hero and not king arthur?

i don't see why old non thinking weapons and modern non thinking weapons should be judged differently...
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 30th, 2008, 10:38 am

Maybe because it is one of a kind? All old weoponaries have different creator (some by gods , fairies , legendary blacksmiths) , legend (backgrounds does affect the weopons as they are known as crystalized mysteries), wielder (different wielder have different skills , if you think this does not apply , might as well give an 3 year old kid Excalibur instead of Arthur ) , some have different material used to create them (bones of monsters , material which does not exist on Earth) and their unique special ability (some might have different power depend on the user , some might need to be chosen). But the wielder is also important , for expect the Berserker of Fate/Zero ,He killed a servant using tree branch >_>
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Unread postby Raitei » December 30th, 2008, 10:39 am

logos wrote:wouldn't the creator or controller be the hero and the weapon his/her noble phantasm?

even a pre-programed weapon is only a weapon wielded by the one who programed it, if the weapon has a true ai things becomes more complicated, but as long as it does not i'd say its pretty clear its only a noble phantasm...

by your reasoning king Arthur for example wouldn't be a hero either since he could not do many of the things he did without Excalibur, so Excalibur would be the hero and not king arthur?

i don't see why old non thinking weapons and modern non thinking weapons should be judged differently...
first, I'm talking about non-ai robots and machines. I too believe that if a machine has its own consciousness, it can be a heroic spirit... in its death. ( then again, there pops up another question : is there any kind of "creature restriction" in order to become a heroic spirit? )

second, king arthur ( arturia ) would still become a heroic spirit because she is the hero who wields a weapon. whereas a non-ai machine is the weapon itself, not a wielder. I never said anything about a hero should be able to perform any feats the his/her weapon is capable of with his / her own bare hands, mind you. trademark weapons ( noble phantasms ) and heroes complement each other, after all.

last, yes, modern day weapons should be judged differently because of the reason posted above. ( in a quote from fuyuki )
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Henza » December 30th, 2008, 11:29 am

Guan Yu, or Kan-Wu if you go with his Ikkitousen name, from the Three Kingdoms. Uses that l... staff with a blade on the end
Is that a lance or a sword> :?
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Unread postby Masterori » December 30th, 2008, 2:03 pm

@ Henza : I believe it was in english Green Dragon Crescent Blade, but in chinese it more of translates into " green dragon moon cutting blade " ( of course I have crappy translating skills but that's what it literary means )

I believe rin once said no matter mechine, animal, ect once they have enough heroic deed they ascend to the throne of heroes... But it doesn't mean they can become a servent.. ( unless you do some castor style haxing to get them into some role )

And I would personally go for one of those god-ish heroes in the chinese myths where the ascend to god like :

Erlang shen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen ) Demi god, He was about to combat sun wokung!

Or

Nazha ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nezha_(deity) ) doesn't moving soul sound familiar?

Arguably they were both gods to begin with
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Unread postby Qaynan » January 9th, 2009, 4:08 am

There are a few different types of servants I can summon depending on how I want to think about this:

Let's suppose we include all fictional character:
As some said, DBZ characters would be overkill but... seriously I don't like the concept at all... since they don't really fit the classes system. I mean there is no "martial artist" class (if we can still call that martial arts anymore...)

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So let's suppose we can only include fictional characters that fit any of the classes:
Someone mentioned Link before... I have to agree at the awesomeness!
But I would mostly choose:

Guts (Berserk)
Class Berserker of course.
Alignment : Chaotic Good
Strength: B+ ( A mad enhanced)
Endurance : A (A+ mad enhanced)
Agility : C
Magic : D
Luck : E
Noble Phantasm: A
Mad enhancement: D (Raises strength and endurance by half a point but reduces thinking to a functional minimum)

Skills
Eternal rage rank B: This skill effectively nullifies any penalty from mad enhancement inferior to rank B. (Since he spent most of his lifetime in an enraged states, he gradually learned to live with it).

Instinct rank C: The instinct of a swordsman... can help him sense and avoid fatal blows.

Hidden hand Canon Rank A: A one use per fight skill enabling him to fire the hidden cannon in his hand. High damage output, cannot be reloaded in battle.

Tools of the mercenary: Rank E-D+, can use throwing knives(D), a repeating crossbow(E), miniature bombs(D+). These tools are mostly used as a diversion to allow to find an opening in his enemies than to actually damage them.

God Slayer: Rank C: His experience in fighting against divine creatures reduces the advantages of the divinity skill by one full Rank.

Noble phantasms:
Dragon Slayer: Massive cursed blade forged to kill even dragons. Rank A / target (1-5 from sheer size).

Berserker armor: Rank B. target self. Raises the mad enhancement rank gradually until it reaches A. At this level the user can no longer distinguish between friend of foe. Once reason is lost (after reaching rank B mad enhancement) only the command spells can cause him to revert to his original state. While active magic resistance is raised to rank C and the user benefits from a short term regenerative ability with a damaging backlash after the effect is canceled.

I hope he isn't too imba lol...

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On the other hand if only mythical/popular folklore fictional character (and characters from the nasuverse) are allowed:
I'd probably think Merlin would make a good caster.
But I'd totally go for Arcueid as a berserker... But since she is not human at all and never was... I don't think she can become a heroic spirit (and by extension a servant).
Or Nanaya Shiki as an assassin... He wouldn't have a noble phantasm but a skill that could be assimilated to one. Mystic eyes of death perception. It would probably allow him to kill even noble phantasms themselves. And he could use presence concealment by converting back to Tohno Shiki lol...
But then again... I think assassin can only be Hassan.

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But if I need a catalyst or a have some form of relation to the servant... I guess the two most likely historical figures I could draw are Hannibal Barca since he's our national hero... And I guess if I'm lucky (and research enough) I might be able to get my hands on a relic related to him. Or Barbarossa since I was born on an island he made his base. (Wiki him as Barbarossa I since I can't link yet)
Hannibal would be a rider. And I think that most his skills and stats would be like those of Rider from Fate/Zero. He would call down a stampede of elephants! But well he wouldn't have any divinity... since he never was believed to have any... Actually I think the romans even considered him a demon for a long time.
For Barbarossa... I wouldn't know... I guess I'd need to summon him to see? lol
(Well with this... and some research... you guys can probably pinpoint my birth place)

Sorry guys for the long post... But getting back to uni is just depressing... So It's just helping me think about something else.
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Unread postby that one guy » January 9th, 2009, 9:13 pm

Guan Yus weapon was actually classified as a Sword in the books. It was a polearm sword, but a sword regardless.
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