Non-ero Fate/stay night

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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 3rd, 2007, 7:56 am

<.< She's of age, wee~

Siscon instead of lolicon
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Unread postby Atvaark » May 3rd, 2007, 12:45 pm

hmm...isn't beeing of age different from country to country?
like canada, of age means 18+, US, of age = 21+, japan= of age12...
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Unread postby Impractic_Shiki » May 3rd, 2007, 1:15 pm

I don't know how strictly they go with the 12 year-old bit being of age bit though.

At the very least, a chunk of their culture doesn't favor it. They didn't like it in Koi Kaze (well...that was kinda incest but...)
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Unread postby Hiyono » May 4th, 2007, 9:06 pm

In reality the Japanese don't allow such relationships either, but they sure like to dream about it :p
'It is better to be a human dissatisfied than a pig satisfied"
- John Stuart Mills
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Unread postby Xavier » May 6th, 2007, 12:16 am

Non-ero....lol.


Seriously, what's wrong with sex? It's part of life. Every living thing reproduce. Now, if sex is forced, then there's a problem, but that is not the case in this game.


Ah well.



Ero for the win. >_>


*Runs away from the topic*
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Unread postby Ellume » May 6th, 2007, 12:43 am

To me it doesn't really deal with sex being wrong. It's for ease of playability when there are children or other family members around. I'm also not very interested in porn etc as I prefer to spend that energy in reality rather then fantasy, so this probably plays a role too.
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Unread postby Xavier » May 6th, 2007, 1:38 am

Ellume wrote:To me it doesn't really deal with sex being wrong. It's for ease of playability when there are children or other family members around. I'm also not very interested in porn etc as I prefer to spend that energy in reality rather then fantasy, so this probably plays a role too.

I usually don't play visual novels when there are kids or family members around. What I usually do is watch the kids play outside or talk to my family or other relatives.

Not interested in porn, eh? I understand, it's quite a disgrace to watch it when a person can just go around and actually do the thing. Although, sometimes, people are not so lucky in spending their energy in reality, so they overcome the urges by just watching it or "playing" it.

Edit: WHICH is also much easier.
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Unread postby Ellume » May 6th, 2007, 2:02 am

Xavier wrote:I usually don't play visual novels when there are kids or family members around. What I usually do is watch the kids play outside or talk to my family or other relatives.

I'm generally only social when I have a specific purpose or interest. I like to spend a good amount of time to myself, or in "my space". So for me I often have people visiting that either want to just get away, just take it cool, or talk a bit (I love when kids ask me questions ^_^). But it's usually random so I just feel more comfortable with non-ero.

I don't think porn is a disgrace, but I did find it heightened my own issues with trust. Maybe a couple more subtle things too but it caused me problems with my relationships. So I've found porn = badness with my sex life. So I shy away from it despite my probably almost addict interest :p
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Unread postby Alyeris » May 6th, 2007, 2:15 am

I don't really mind the ero scenes since you can generally speed through them in about 10 secs using the skip command but it can be a bit embarassing when your mum comes into your room while you are going through Unlimited Blade Works for the first time (and that's the least ero story path!).
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 25th, 2007, 5:10 pm

As suggested by Message, I'm continuing a conversation from this thread over here.

From what I've heard about Realta Nua:

Fate has a dragon scene, like in the anime (but the dragon looks a lot cooler), the scene from UBW is replaced with Rin pressing her hand on Shirou's chest, doing the glowy-arm trick, and him seeing a vision of fish, while in HF both Rider (who was disguised as Rin in Shirou's 'dream') and Sakura drink Shirou's blood...



There has been a good point made about the limitations that the ero version of the game has by default - which is precisely why Realta Nua has a lower age rating, and therefore a wider potential audience - and the workarounds don't necessarily detract from the main story.

It seems that the best solution would be to release concurrent versions of the game - one with the ero and one without - so that the choice is available for people to make from the outset. (I wonder if Realta Nua will end up back on the PC, as F/SN's official non-ero version...)


And I'll say it again, RN proves that the comment about 'Fate was, is, and will always be an ero game' is simply not true.
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Unread postby Message » June 25th, 2007, 5:34 pm

Nerroth wrote:And I'll say it again, RN proves that the comment about 'Fate was, is, and will always be an ero game' is simply not true.

Although people who'd say that would probably also say that F/sn RN is not F/sn, it's F/sn RN...

Westerners and Japanese probably look at eroticism very differently. As Pierrot pointed out in the Shirouhate-thread, Shirou's stance towards Saber as a woman primarily stems from the genre of the game. But saying that the discussion is therefore moot hints at an entirely different frame of reference from my own: I don't think I will ever look at ero content as an integral part of a story or genre. Well, apart from the economic/marketing aspect.

So the statement "It is and will always be an eroge" might be more of a Japanese idea. TakaJun for example cannot understand why I would even think about creating a non-ero version. For me that idea is kind of obvious: You have a great story, a great game, and erotic scenes that I don't really enjoy and aren't really to the point. So I just cut them out. But perhaps to a Japanese those scenes are actually very much to the point.
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 25th, 2007, 6:00 pm

Ah, but RN itself is a Japanese release, too - and from what I've heard, a successful one.

Wouldn't that prove that there are those in Japan who think in a similar manner as some of us do on this topic?

Falling into the trap of thinking all Japanese look alike is a dangerous as the trap that some in Japan might fall into, if ignoring/dismissing the diversity to be found within the archipelago.


Indeed, I thought it was the case that Nasu himself wrote the new scenes - and if he has any interest in the integrity of his work (which I would bet he does quite well) he made sure that the new versions were faithful to the story universe he had created. If Nasu himself can envision a non-ero F/SN, why not those who enjoy his work?

And RN is as genuine a version of the F/SN-iverse as the original - and as I keep saying to anyone who might listen, Fate/Stay Night is a lot more than just one game. It's a setting with a life of its own, and many different available (and possible) interpretations.

Pierrot wrote:Ignore them, yank them out, whatever you wish...

I don't think a game is or is not an bishoujo game simply because of the explicit scenes in them or the lack thereoff. There are several devices that are nearly universal in these sorts of games ('flags' for example, or lots of girls and a boy under one roof) and Fate follows them to the hilt. I think cutting the explicit scenes out is commendable in widening the number of people who will be able to enjoy the game, but that doesn't really say anything as to my original point, which is that the game was made with a specific genre and target audience in mind and doesn't shirk from showing it, and that's not just regarding the H scenes.

Yet I agree with everything you said, and I'm fascinated at how anybody would ever think of creating a non-ero ero game. In Japan the only people who even play this stuff (visual novels) are the hardcore ero gamers in the first case, which is maybe a shame, as it narrows the target audience considerably... But that's just the way things are.

Perhaps taking the work to a freer environment outside of the country does open up new possibilities. But as you stated, the H scenes were placed there with a reason that has nothing to do with the creative merits of the game, as is Shirou's maybe not so politically correct chivalry, which renders the point of the existence of this entire thread and string of arguments rather moot. That's all I've been saying from the start off.

And now as I've said almost everything I wanted to say, I don't have any intention of continuing this particular sad off tangent rant.


Even if the original game was designed for such a target audience, the worth of the setting and story presented has proven itself in how well it has been able to be re-told and re-interpreted in new forms of media - and in the form of a non-ero visual novel with Realta Nua.

Or do you think only the same fans who bought the original game watch the anime, read the manga, or play RN?

As I said, I myself got into the setting through the anime - and I'm not the only one.

And look - out of the entire content of F/SN, how many scenes needed to be re-done for Realta Nua?

Five. The threesome in the cabin and the Shirou-Saber scene in Fate, the Rin scene in UBW, the Rider-as-Rin 'dream' scene and Sakura scene in HF.


And of those,

The scenes which were driven by the 'mana transfer' plot device have all been re-worked, and the two which (as far as I'm aware) are supposed to be more intimate (the second Saber scene, and the Sakura scene) have apparently been given the same type of oblique references that you see in the F/SN anime (in which there are clues as to what went on in that room, but it's still open to interpretation), or in the Tsukihime anime (where you see Shiki and Arc embrace, but in a more subtly-portrayed manner).


More minor edits seem to be twith things like the portrayal of Zouken's worms - they look more like Tyranid Rippers now.


There are plenty of shows which are popular and still contain what could be considered stereotypical plot elements, but don't have the same limited audience which the inclusion of ero scenes invariably makes.

Indeed, the huge success of F/SN as a multi-media franchise proves it.


But if you wish, we can decide to agree to disagree and move on...


EDIT: And for what it's worth, I have no problem in principle with scenes which show two caring, compassionate and mutually enjoy-ing lovers embracing one another - but if the inclusion ends up causing a story to miss its full potential, I'd rather it not be there (and leave the implications to my imagination).
Going back to the Rin thing, it's quite off-putting to think of Shirou causing her pain or discomfort in bed, and puts me right off the character - and the glowy-arm trick shows that the 'mana transfer' crap is unnecessary. However, if the two of them were more like how I hear they are in Hollow Ataraxia, that's not a problem - but then, it could be made open to a wider audience by giving the same kind of on-screen portrayal we see between Arc and Shiki in the Lunar Legend anime.
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Unread postby Pierrot » June 25th, 2007, 6:56 pm

Okay. I see this already has nothing to do with Shirou being sexist or whatnot so I'll add a few words...

Or do you think only the same fans who bought the original game watch the anime, read the manga, or play RN?

As I said, I myself got into the setting through the anime - and I'm not the only one.


I think we have a misunderstanding to do away with before continuing any further. I'm talking strictly about the reception in Japan. I don't know anything about how it's like having to wait for dedicated people to sub the anime and games and whatnot, or not having the PC version immediately available, and things may be different.

As for the point of oh don't even think to be pretentious enough to speak for the Japanese in general, I'm not. I'm just trying to communicate the prejudices people still tend to hold against visual novel games in general. As a customer review for Realta Nua says at Amazon.co.jp:

This game has a lot of unfamiliar words like the Holy Grail, Saber, and Servants. To boot, the original version is a PC 18+ game that has the danger of being called a gyaru game, so in a way it was hard to pick up.


As a matter of fact, there is a section in the Product Details section that heads: 'What a Visual Novel is', and goes on to warn potential buyers how the game will be mainly text, with still graphics and music..., which only underscores my point that visual novels are not as mainstream in Japan as some might fantasize it to be. Sorry fellow otaku's, if you though Japan was some sort of safe haven for our kind I have to tell you it's just as hard for us over here as it is for you guys over there...

The diversity of the Japanese populace is exactly the point I'm trying to get across here. There are hardcore visual novel fans who collect the manga and anime as well, people who like manga and anime but aren't that into visual novels, and a majority of people who have a gag reflex against anything pertaining to otaku culture. As the Amazon.co.jp reviews suggest, I think Realta Nua is proof that Fate does have the ability to break those boundaries and appeal to a wide audience. But if it wasn't for its popularity as an H game first, it never would have gotten the chance to break in a more mainstream medium (PS2), precisely because a majority of people are unfamiliar with the visual novel format.

The important thing is that the H scenes are there because Nasu Kinoko likes them there. That's only proved by the fact that Nitro+ will be doing the newest installment in the franchise, Fate/Zero, since Nitro+ is a notably hardcore ero game maker and the H scenes will certainly be back. Maybe Fate didn't need the ero scenes, but for his own reasons the author put them where they are and if you have beef with that... avoid them all you like. But that doesn't make Realta Nua a somehow better, more improved, next step in the evolution version of the original game just because it doesn't have any H scenes in them (whatever it's other merits, and I'm sure there are quite a few). It's just another take of the same concept.

Anyhow, I don't even know what we're disagreeing on, and I don't even know why I'm having this discussion with you in this thread, as it has nothing to do with what I originally wanted to say. If you don't like the H scenes, simply play the games that don't have them, commercial or fanmade. It's a free choice and if it allows you to enjoy the excellent world that Nasu Kinoko's imagination has blessed with us, more power to you and the people behind it, I extend you my most sincerest encouragements!


*added*
I originally wanted to say, which is so simple it can be summed up in three lines:

1. Fate/stay night was originally a H game=fact.
2. As a H game, Fate/stay night will have a tendency to cater to a male audience.
3. Hence any discussion of Shirou being sexist or not is pointless. If the game is written by a male with a male audience in mind, political correctness isn't going to be high on the list of priorities.

That's all I ever wanted to say... and taking the discussion here makes me feel like I just woke up drunk and found my puke all over the front door of someone I don't know :3. I have nothing to say about Realta Nua or the lack of H content. When I said Fate will always be a H game, I meant it as in point 1., that the original franchise is a H game and it's not wise to purposefully overlook that fact, and was not literally referring to one game or another that works around those scenes...
Last edited by Pierrot on June 25th, 2007, 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 25th, 2007, 8:08 pm

Oh dear - it seems that we are still missing a few of each other's viewpoints. The curse of non-telepathic forms of communication!

(If we ever do encounter a telepathic species, they will probably find us to be hopelessly lost in translation...)

While answering the following questions, I'll try to do a better job of explaining myself.

Pierrot wrote:
Or do you think only the same fans who bought the original game watch the anime, read the manga, or play RN?

As I said, I myself got into the setting through the anime - and I'm not the only one.


I think we have a misunderstanding to do away with before continuing any further. I'm talking strictly about the reception in Japan. I don't know anything about how it's like having to wait for dedicated people to sub the anime and games and whatnot, or not having the PC version immediately available, and things may be different.


Oh, it's a lot of fun, trust us! (Note: it's not really...)

As for the point of oh don't even think to be pretentious enough to speak for the Japanese in general, I'm not. I'm just trying to communicate the prejudices people still tend to hold against visual novel games in general. As a customer review for Realta Nua says at Amazon.co.jp:

This game has a lot of unfamiliar words like the Holy Grail, Saber, and Servants. To boot, the original version is a PC 18+ game that has the danger of being called an ero game, so in a way it was hard to pick up.


As a matter of fact, there is a section in the Product Details section that heads: 'What a Visual Novel is', and goes on to warn potential buyers how the game will be mainly text, with still graphics and music..., which only underscores my point that visual novels are not as mainstream in Japan as some might fantasize it to be. Sorry fellow otaku's, if you though Japan was some sort of safe haven for our kind I have to tell you it's just as hard for us over here as it is for you guys over there...


I think we are getting close to the issue here.

The diversity of the Japanese populace is exactly the point I'm trying to get across here. There are hardcore visual novel fans who collect the manga and anime as well, people who like manga and anime but aren't that into visual novels, and a majority of people who have a gag reflex against anything pertaining to otaku culture. As the Amazon.co.jp reviews suggest, I think Realta Nua is proof that Fate does have the ability to break those boundaries and appeal to a wide audience. But if it wasn't for its popularity as an H game first, it never would have gotten the chance to break in a more mainstream medium (PS2), precisely because a majority of people are unfamiliar with the visual novel format.


But if Fate/Stay Night had first been released as a manga, or an anime, or a series of novels, would it not have had a good chance of gaining enough popularity to allow it to branch out?

(And before you refer to the failure of Kara no Kyoukai, I would note that other popular multi-media series, such as Shakugan no Shana and Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, started as light novels, and branched out from there - and neither carry the perceived stigma that F/SN might have. And while both are loaded with anime plot stereotypes, they have no problems finding a wider male and female audience...)

I'm not pretending that F/SN could have made a dent in the minds of the gag-reflex crowd - but then, SnS and SHnY probably don't either - but that still would have left the first two categories of fans on the table.

And who is to say that a visual novel could not have been produced after the novel/manga/anime/whatever, for the interested subset of fans after the property had reached a suitable level of popularity?


In short, I disagree with your view that F/SN (as an intellectual property) was only capable of becoming a success as an ero visual novel - but the alternative I suggest is not that it would have been better off being a non-ero visual novel, but rather in another medium entirely.

If this had happened, the option for those interested in an ero version would still be there, but it wouldn't have become such a major aspect of the setting in the minds of the uninitiated that it has become.


The important thing is that the H scenes are there because Nasu Kinoko likes them there. That's only proved by the fact that Nitro+ will be doing the newest installment in the franchise, Fate/Zero, since Nitro+ is a notably hardcore ero game maker and the H scenes will certainly be back. Maybe Fate didn't need the ero scenes, but for his own reasons the author put them where they are and if you have beef with that... avoid them all you like. But that doesn't make Realta Nua a somehow better, more improved, next step in the evolution version of the original game just because it doesn't have any H scenes in them (whatever it's other merits, and I'm sure there are quite a few). It's just another take of the same concept.


I didn't say that the replacement scenes are better - I said that they are not worse, in that they fit the established background and do not take away from the story, and that they allow the story to reach a wider audience (who would otherwise be put-off by the ero). And since Nasu wrote those scenes as well, it seems he wants them there in RN!

And as the anime has already shown, these kinds of re-workings impact the versions of the story told in other media - for example it will be interesting to see what happens in the manga, which
follows the Unlimited Blade Works story route. Will it go with the Shirou-being-an-idiot-in-the-sack ero scene from the PC game, or Rin's glowy-arm trick from RN? I'm betting it will be the latter, but we'll see...


Anyhow, I don't even know what we're disagreeing on, and I don't even know why I'm having this discussion with you in this thread, as it has nothing to do with what I originally wanted to say. If you don't like the H scenes, simply play the games that don't have them, commercial or fanmade. It's a free choice and if it allows you to enjoy the excellent world that Nasu Kinoko's imagination has blessed with us, more power to you and the people behind it, I extend you my most sincerest encouragements!


The crux of the debate seems to be the following:

*Whether or not the story of Fate/Stay Night needs the ero scenes to work as a whole, or whether the kind of re-writes in Realta Nua and elsewhere are also viable.
*Whether the scenes themselves add to the story, or seem like an uncomfortable compromise for the sake of selling the original game.
*Whether F/SN as an intellectual property had to be released as an ero visual novel to become an initial success (before it could branch out into other forms of media) or whether it could have followed the example of SnS in becoming a success in another format (such as a light novel) before branching out.
*Whether the fact that it was released as an ero game originally should colour the perceptions of subsequent releases in other media, or whether the setting can move beyond the 'it's an ero game!' perception and become more readily accepted by the regular anime/manga crowd.


For my part, I would say that:

*No, the story doesn't need the ero - but aside from my issues with the 'mana transfer' plot device in general, and the UBW scene in particular, both versions of the story are fine. (This is more of a personal thing - as I said at the end of my last post.)
*I'd have no problem if I was sure that it was the case of the former (there are plenty of more mainstream movies and series which deal with the physical aspects of relationships, after all) but it's a little bit jarring knowing it was probably the latter.
*I believe that yes, with the right marketing campaign and publisher, Fate would have had a very good chance of doing at least as well as Shakugan no Shana as a light novel series (a format in which the richness of the background would have been accommodated pretty well) and then going on to become a manga/anime/visual novel/etc...
*Given that we now have many forms in which the setting has been explored, I'd say that it already has done a good job of this already. (In terms of merchandise, take the example of model figures. It's interesting how a divide could be drawn between 'action' figures, such as Revoltech Saber, which highlight the combat aspect of Fate - and is a great toy, by the way - while the 'swimsuit/maid/etc' statuettes out there highlight the 'wow, Saber/Rin/Sakura are hot!' market...)


Perhaps the way forward will be a twin-track approach - with the likes of the anime, manga, novels, PS2 and PSP games showing the Fate flag to the regular anime/manga crowd, and future PC releases catering to the ero fans.

However, perhaps Fate might have benefited if this kind of twin-track approach had been there from the outset - but even so, it is still a good way to go forward.
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Unread postby Pierrot » June 25th, 2007, 8:41 pm

I find myself agreeing to most of what you say :3 so there must be progress?

I would note that other popular multi-media series, such as Shakugan no Shana and Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, started as light novels, and branched out from there

Ah, but here is where the very Nasu Kinoko-ness that endears him to so many of his fans works against him. As I said previously, Nasu Kinoko is entirely unique in that he combines light novel qualities with themes and a writing style that a lot of native Japanese find difficult and overtly cryptic [take this thread-> http://www.revolve-trans.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=627 ]. Coupled with the visuals and music of the visual novel format, his somewhat dense style of writing can be appreciated with greater ease, which is why I think it was by necessity that he chose the visual novel as his medium of choice. It's also what makes him so special, and also different from the examples you stated above. There's really no way to place him: he's too subculture to be accepted as a mainstream mystery or suspense writer, but too deep to be marketed as a light novel.

Now.

*Whether or not the story of Fate/Stay Night needs the ero scenes to work as a whole, or whether the kind of re-writes in Realta Nua and elsewhere are also viable.
I think rewrites are certainly viable. If the target audience is different, so will the content be different to appropriate for it.

*Whether the scenes themselves add to the story, or seem like an uncomfortable compromise for the sake of selling the original game.
Neither. They're just the staplemark of a certain genre. Like... I don't know, the laughtracks of American comedy or the running joke of a series. You may not 'need' them but you expect them as a matter of course and you feel somewhat cheated when they're not there.

*Whether F/SN as an intellectual property had to be released as an ero visual novel to become an initial success (before it could branch out into other forms of media) or whether it could have followed the example of SnS in becoming a success in another format (such as a light novel) before branching out.
We have no way of knowing. But as for the novel format... I already gave my view of it at the beginning of this post.

*Whether the fact that it was released as an ero game originally should colour the perceptions of subsequent releases in other media, or whether the setting can move beyond the 'it's an ero game!' perception and become more readily accepted by the regular anime/manga crowd.
I don't see why the anime and manga can't move on to the mainstream (really, it already has), and the same with Realta Nua. But I know that the other side to the coin will still stay there as long as the franchise will continue, and I don't think that this twin track approach, as you put it, is necessarily a bad thing either.

-----------------The body is a sword.
The blood is iron, the heart of glass.
Over countless battlefields undefeated.
Never once to flee,
And never once to be understood.
Atop the hill of swords she drinks the dregs of victory in her solitude.

Therefore her lifetime held no meaning,
and I’m sure her body was a sword.
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 25th, 2007, 9:08 pm

Pierrot wrote:I find myself agreeing to most of what you say :3 so there must be progress?


It seems so!

I would note that other popular multi-media series, such as Shakugan no Shana and Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, started as light novels, and branched out from there

Ah, but here is where the very Nasu Kinoko-ness that endears him to so many of his fans works against him. As I said previously, Nasu Kinoko is entirely unique in that he combines light novel qualities with themes and a writing style that a lot of native Japanese find difficult and overtly cryptic [take this thread-> http://www.revolve-trans.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=627 ]. Coupled with the visuals and music of the visual novel format, his somewhat dense style of writing can be appreciated with greater ease, which is why I think it was by necessity that he chose the visual novel as his medium of choice. It's also what makes him so special, and also different from the examples you stated above. There's really no way to place him: he's too subculture to be accepted as a mainstream mystery or suspense writer, but too deep to be marketed as a light novel.


Perhaps the key issue in the novelisation would be in the people he collaborates with - such as those which whom he has worked with from Fate Project, and on Fate/Zero. (How well is that novel series doing, do you know?)

Indeed, there are very few authors who can bring their stories to new media wel by themselves - but at the same time, a writer more attuned to the ins and outs of the other writing style, working together with the origianl author, can do the original form justice. (I don't hear a lot of complaints about the transition SHnY made to its anime form - though of course they had the advantage of dealing with a studio like KyoAni!)

My assumption would be that in the alternate universe where F/SN was released first as a novel, that Nasu would have had a working partnership of people who would have helped in fine-tuning the story to suit the medium.


Now.

*Whether or not the story of Fate/Stay Night needs the ero scenes to work as a whole, or whether the kind of re-writes in Realta Nua and elsewhere are also viable.
I think rewrites are certainly viable. If the target audience is different, so will the content be different to appropriate for it.


Indeed!

*Whether the scenes themselves add to the story, or seem like an uncomfortable compromise for the sake of selling the original game.
Neither. They're just the staplemark of a certain genre. Like... I don't know, the laughtracks of American comedy or the running joke of a series. You may not 'need' them but you expect them as a matter of course and you feel somewhat cheated when they're not there.


Only if you buy the original - I doubt many buying RN will feel let down by the lack of ero there - I hope!

*Whether F/SN as an intellectual property had to be released as an ero visual novel to become an initial success (before it could branch out into other forms of media) or whether it could have followed the example of SnS in becoming a success in another format (such as a light novel) before branching out.
We have no way of knowing. But as for the novel format... I already gave my view of it at the beginning of this post.


Ironically, I was imagining a visual novel with many branching storylines, based around whether the protagonist releases his story as a visual novel, light novel, game, anime or manga!

*Whether the fact that it was released as an ero game originally should colour the perceptions of subsequent releases in other media, or whether the setting can move beyond the 'it's an ero game!' perception and become more readily accepted by the regular anime/manga crowd.
I don't see why the anime and manga can't move on to the mainstream (really, it already has), and the same with Realta Nua. But I know that the other side to the coin will still stay there as long as the franchise will continue, and I don't think that this twin track approach, as you put it, is necessarily a bad thing either.


Agreed - it seems the twin track route is best from here on.
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Unread postby chasmirror » June 25th, 2007, 9:59 pm

Regarding Ilya...

She LOOKS underage, but actually she is OLDER than Shiro. Her growth stunt is due to her being a homunculus(specially engineered in her mother's womb) and the harsh engraving and training of the Command Seal necessary to control Berserker(unlike other Masters, Ilya's Command Seal covers her entire body).

Her seemingly innocent nature is due to her sheltered life with limited exposures to the world outside of Einzbern Castle. But age-wise, she is the older adopted sister to Shiro. That is why she sacrifices herself to save Shiro in the Heaven's Feel True Ending, quoting Shiro "the older sibling must protect the younger one." Just before she closes the gate, she says, "you see, I am Shiro's older sister."

The projected age of Ilya, according to the Type-Moon sources, is about 20 years old(over or under, I'm not sure). Which makes sense, since Shiro should be at least 16, or 17, being a junior in high school. So technically, Ilya is NOT underage.

Actually, there was a scenario where Ilya was supposed to be the heroine. In the early stage of planning, Rider and even Caster were considered for the role of a heroine in a scenario(even earlier stage had Saber to be a young male King Arthur, with a young girl(NOT Rin) as his Master. In other words, Shiro was supposed to be a girl in the beginning!). Ilya Scenario did survive till the later stage, but was scrapped due to lack of time. Some say the incompleted script for that episode is still sitting in a drawer in Type-Moon office somewhere...
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Unread postby Nerroth » June 25th, 2007, 10:08 pm

If you go by Fate/Zero,
She's 18 by the time of the Fifth War.


Here's a useful quote from F/Z:
Having no experience in raising children before Ilyasviel, Kiritsugu doesn't know how they grow up. But he understands that it isn't normal for his daughter, who turns 8 this year, to weigh 15 kilos. Perhaps, the absurd adjustments she received at birth are the reason. To Kiritsugu and Irisviel, it was obvious she would be late in reaching adulthood. Will her body turn into that of an adult as years pass or not? No, rather, they had no hope. As a magus, Kiritsugu has already closed his ruthless diagnosis. There is 80 to 90% chances that Ilyasviel's growth will stop before her secondary sex characteristic appear.


In other words, she only has a 1 in 10 chance of even beginning to reach puberty in her current state, and even if she does she is almost certainly doomed to cease functioning when she's 19.
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Unread postby chasmirror » June 25th, 2007, 10:19 pm

About Fate and its erotic contents, I must say the Fate game really doesn't need its H scenes to be marketed in US right now. The audience willing to accept the concept of a visual novel game in US is somewhat limited to anime fans, and they are already familar with FSN due to its anime series. People outside of that audience wouldn't play FSN just for a handful of erotic scenes in 40+ hours of playing. The limited gameplay in visual novels is another obstacle. Simply put, the erotic content in the original FSN won't bring in any more audience. At least in the beginning, only those who had watched the anime would be willing to play the game.

I personally think the erotic content in FSN is somewhat well-played, much so that they might not be vital, but but does play an important part of the whole plot when inserted. Not terribly necessary, but nice to be in. I have played my shares of visual novels, and a very few(ToHeart is actually NOT one of them) has handled the erotic content as well as FSN. Aside from "how can Saber be a virgin and know how to please a man" argument(which I think is an overthinking), I haven't heard much bad things about it from others either.

FSN RN can be a nice release in NA, albeit somewhat limited. But I don't see anyone jumping at it any time soon. Unlike other games, which the publisher would only have to translate the menu and the a few(?) dialogues, FSN RN would basically be a rewrite of a whole novel to blend in the linguistic, and cultural differences.

A note on the subject:
FSN was rather a huge success in Japan. A regular visual novel sell about 50,000 copies per title. In case of a huge hit, it might reach 100,000 mark. FSN so far has sold over 150,000, and that's not counting Hollow Ataraxia, which did almost as well as the FSN.
Last edited by chasmirror on June 26th, 2007, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby chasmirror » June 25th, 2007, 10:25 pm

Nerroth wrote:If you go by Fate/Zero,
She's 18 by the time of the Fifth War.


That sounds about right.


Nerroth wrote:
In other words, she only has a 1 in 10 chance of even beginning to reach puberty in her current state, and even if she does she is almost certainly doomed to cease functioning when she's 19.


From what I've heard, and the quote you've shown from Fate/Zero, there is nothing to suggest that Ilya's short lifespan is due to the adjustment done to her before birth. But even if it is so, the overexertion on her body as the Master of Berserker(that of Hercules, no less!) definitely played a part. In HA, Sella actually mentions that unlike other Homunculus such as herself who would live on for a long time, Ilya would cease to function in the matter of a few years. In Fate ending, Rin is mentioned to be doing some maintenance on Ilya's body which should prolong her life a liltte(especially without Berserker), but for how much longer is not mentioned...
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