A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

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A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » November 26th, 2009, 8:16 am

As it is currently, the Realta Nua patch isn't exactly the most legal of things in its current form, which is the same reason we're not really supposed to speak of it.

HOWEVER, would it theoretically be possible to have a more legal version that rips the data at installation, similar to the voice patch? Using this method, it'd be incredibly awesome if mirror moon integrated such a thing into their English patch. Technically the voice patch could already be considered a partial RN patch.

If this were to happen though, it'd need a few extra installer options due to non-ero replacement scenes. There's 3 different combinations:
1) RN + No ero (defaut RN)
2) RN + ero
3) No RN + no ero

The first 2 are easy enough, but the last one requires making due without certain CGs which may be difficult. Alternatively the non-ero scenes could be re-written altogether, but that'd cause yet another variation to the plot (then again, all 3 routes of FSN are already variations of the same plot, so that'd be right up this game's alley)
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Uberoy » November 26th, 2009, 3:18 pm

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:1) RN + No ero (defaut RN)
2) RN + ero
3) No RN + no ero


1. This doesnt sound like a patch. It sounds more like an english translation of Realta Nua. And since RN is for the Ps2 it's quite the feat to make a translation patch for it and making a PC-port for it doesn't sound legal.

2. F/SN with the extra RN CG's. Could work. Not sure how the current Realta Nua patch works but this sounds pretty much like that one.

3. F/SN without the H-scenes. This have been worked on if I'm not misstaken. Not sure why you would need RN for this one though.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » November 27th, 2009, 5:33 am

Um, my point is that if the patch were remade/integrated, it wouldn't be as simple as checking a box in the installer saying "Realta Nua content". This is because if you did that, you would get no ero scenes at all, which some people wouldn't like. Therefore, in a sense, a true Realta Nua patch is also a non-ero patch, so you need to have a setting variable for having realta nua content AND ero content.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Uberoy » November 27th, 2009, 1:30 pm

Then the "true realta nua" patch would be the same thing as porting Realta Nua to the PC, more or less, which I'm quite sure isn't legal.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » November 27th, 2009, 8:44 pm

But the reason why it isn't legal is because it already contains the RN content - what I'm proposing is for ripping said content from the RN disc during installation, just like the voice patch.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Message » November 28th, 2009, 8:03 am

As far as I can see, the only reason why it wouldn't be legal to rip RN content on-the-fly into the PC version ('porting' as uberoy called it), would be that it's reverse-engineering of copyrighted software. And ANY unapproved translation patch is guilty of that, so we're not really worried about that particular of legality.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » November 28th, 2009, 8:24 am

Message wrote:ANY unapproved translation patch is guilty of that, so we're not really worried about that particular of legality.
Not to mention I've never heard of a fan translation being shut down, since 99.99% of the time the only thing that would come out of it is bad publicity, which equals less profits.

Great to see this topic made it past your seal of approval as well, seeing that in the past RN patch-related topics have been locked.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Zensunni » November 28th, 2009, 12:21 pm

The voice acting is awesome, but the other things RN have to offer are not so significant. I might still play a translated Realta Nua, even though I've read the original game's routes twice...but is there much point in indulging a few long time fans such as myself?

You don't usually have legal issues when tampering with VNs, though. Reason being we aren't usually their intended audience, so the authors and publishers don't know or care about what we do. They're often small groups who can't be bothered with making legal threats, anyway.
The trouble mostly follows when dealing with works that are licensed in america:
Chrono Trigger fan project
Anime fansubs
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby hapsnn » December 4th, 2009, 7:19 am

IANAL, but why would porting RN to the PC be illegal?

The Kirikiri engine is GPLed, isn't it? So as long as you only distribute the GPL'd engine, and use an installer to extract the RN files from the disc on-the-fly, you should be fine.

In fact things similar to this have been done before, such as with Doom sourceports:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_source_port
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Message » December 5th, 2009, 6:51 am

Note: The legality debate ends HERE.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » December 5th, 2009, 7:07 am

Thank you message, now back to the main point - an RN patch that could possibly rip and convert data from the RN disc at install.

EDIT: According to this post, I still somehow talked about legality. I thought I was only talking about technical and data issues... too late now though, I fail.


Obviously voice is possible, and since that is I'd imagine music is as well, so that shouldn't be an issue.

CGs and images would be harder though... there is a japanese program that can rip these, but I believe it's commercial (I don't know about you, but a commercial ripping program seems illogical to me). The only way I could see this be possible is to either reverse-engineer it, or integrate it into the installer secretly in some way that nobody could find out (shady business!).

Other than that, the only other option I can think of (besides using a hex viewer/editor or something) is to use some of PCSX2's source code and to texture dump the CGs. Generally PCSX2 needs a copy of the PS2 BIOS, but for something like this I don't know if it'd be needed. Nonetheless according to good old Wikipedia "A free clone of the official BIOS is in development."
Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 on December 8th, 2009, 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby toukoaozaki » December 7th, 2009, 7:43 am

Might sound like an off topic, but I think this is somewhat related to the topic.

I thought about creating an substitute engine. There's no permanent file conversion involved at all.
Basic idea is this: if the game runs on PS2-based scripted engine, writing another compatible scripted engine will work.

  • Audio: AFS/AHX
  • Graphics: Unknown Graphics Archive/Format (required)
  • Script: Unknown Scripting Archive/Format (required)
  • Platform: 32-bit Windows, Direct3D 9
  • Requires original disc to play.
  • Supports overriding internal files with external files.
  • No copy of any copyrighted material involved, except in-memory temporary copies.

This does not involve any kind of converting or copying files at all. Also, there's no online transmission of copyrighted work in any way, in contrast to the derivative works involved in most translation projects. Instead, it will be a standalone executable or only with required library files. Just like in the case of PCSX2 (like not distributing BIOS, which is copyrighted by SONY), I don't think there will be any obvious legal problem. (Once the engine is functional, it is not really a problem to make a translation: with legal responsibilites on the translators, though)

The only possible legal issue here is connected to reverse engineering. However, copyright issue does not apply in this case because there is nothing being copied or modified. At most, it can be a breach of EULA by reverse engineering of part of application, which applies to any third-party translation going on as well. Since legal issues that have affected the translation works are all about copyright infringement (and not breach of EULA), it will be fine unless there are claims regarding patent infringements, which is unlikely because 1. only possible patents can be about properitary formats and middleware companies, not TM or Kadokawa, and 2. third-party patent issues don't come to play for non-commercial work. Furthermore, it will only support running directly from disc: this is about not promoting the software piracy, at least formally. Anyway, the scripting engine itself (not i/o part) can be done without thouching software binaries.

The only problem is that I have never seen the original script from the ps2 game itself. If it's hardcoded (but unlikely), then this entire idea is screwed.

Just to note: there are open-source softwares involving reverse engineering of proprietary softwares, such as Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office. Again, reverse engineering itself will be safe unless there are real copyright or patent issues involved.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Nintendo Maniac 64 » December 7th, 2009, 7:56 am

toukoaozaki wrote:Just to note: there are open-source involving reverse engineering of proprietary softwares, such as Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office. Again, reverse engineering itself will be safe unless there are real copyright or patent issues involved.

ReactOS (LINK) is a great example of this: it does what you just said, reverse engineers MS Windows (NT-based ones to be specific) - note that it's the ReactOS developers' wishes to mention that this is clean-room reverse engineering (which is what I assume is meant by toukoaozaki's post).


EDIT: I apologize Message. I do not know where I went wrong, but I'd much rather shut myself up and see something come out of this than have myself cause the topic to be locked and live with the guilt of knowing I may have prevented something great.
Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 on December 8th, 2009, 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Message » December 8th, 2009, 6:02 am

I was going to close it down, but I decided I didn't want to spoil this interesting thread just because of two numskulls who can't resist pushing the limits.

toukoaozaki and Nintendo Maniac 64, who continued the legality debate even though it was forbidden only two posts ago, are hereby getting an official warning. Also you are both no longer allowed to participate in this thread.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 9th, 2009, 8:47 pm

If I'm not wrong, currently the mirror moon patch includes a translation to english of the whole VN, plus a decoder that rips audio files from a RN PS2 disc to use in the PC version if one ows a PS2 disc to rip this data from. While the latter uses a system that decodes information not present in the patch itself but in the RN PS2 disc as data to record in our PC, the former is contained as data directly in the patch that installs ONLY IF we have Fate already installed in our PC. The RN audio also only installs itself ONLY IF there's a RN PS2 disc to rip the audio data from.

Following this logic, would it be ok Mirrormoon-wise to add a RN patch to the installer that is already contained as data on it but that installs IF AND ONLY IF a RN PS2 disc is inserted for verification that one owns the game? In this sense, the RN information wouldn't be ripped from the RN PS2 disc, but would be already included in the patch as data, like the translation itself is. The only problem I see is that RN patch is not necessarily port-able to the PC version, so a little of adaptation and, thus, original work would be needed, but nothing departing much from the original version I hope...

So, would something like I have described work?
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Message » December 10th, 2009, 5:58 am

I don't know if it'd be ok 'mirror moon-wise' or not, but we would strongly prefer an on-the-fly installation. It's just better that way.

Of course the main reason why we haven't 'ported' Realta Nua is that we didn't feel like it. Didn't find it important enough at the time, and it hasn't become much more important over the past year. As for a non-ero version, I still want to do that, but I doubt I'll have time for something like that any time soon. Gotta worry about Tsukihime etc first.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 10th, 2009, 3:11 pm

So in other words the non-ero patch is currently low priority until after the new works from Type-Moon come out?

In any case once they've release the Tsukihime re-make along with the other two game I just hope you guys can manage on doing the translation work for them then.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Uberoy » December 10th, 2009, 10:29 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:once they've release the Tsukihime re-make along with the other two game I just hope you guys can manage on doing the translation work for them then.

Wait, have I missed something here?
Tsukihime re-make: Check
Mahou Tsukai no Yoru: Check
Third game?: :(

And btw, why dont you work on the censored patch now? It doesn't look like that you're very busy. Might just be me though...
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby abscess » December 11th, 2009, 2:40 am

Uberoy wrote:Third game?: :(

Girls' Work, or something like that

Uberoy wrote:And btw, why dont you work on the censored patch now? It doesn't look like that you're very busy. Might just be me though...

....Heheheheh, this is amusing.

Just dropping a question here:
Would it be okay for any other group, with mirrormoon's permission, to tamper with the patch installer to do the on-the-fly installation of the RN content?
For the sake of deflecting the de rigeur question: No, I'm not planning on doing that myself, let alone ask someone. Just wondering.
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Re: A Legal Realta Nua Patch?

Unread postby Message » December 11th, 2009, 6:23 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:So in other words the non-ero patch is currently low priority until after the new works from Type-Moon come out?

Actually I was talking about Tsukihime. If you check the website you'll see the patch updater we released last is rather broken.

abscess wrote:Would it be okay for any other group, with mirrormoon's permission, to tamper with the patch installer to do the on-the-fly installation of the RN content?

Creating an installer that extracts some RN patch files would be quite trivial. But I'm not sure if we'd agree to redistribution of our patch.
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