? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

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? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 29th, 2009, 9:22 pm

This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time now.
The first H-scene in Heaven's Feel Route, when Shirou dreams of having sex with Tohsaka;
what is it about? I mean, its probably hinted that its was actually Rider in a Tohsaka avatar
(eye's shape and name of the day, which is the name of the island of the three Gorgon Sisters),
but no Servant should have been able to enter Shirou's room as Saber was closeby.So, how did
Rider "steal" energy from Shirou without being detected(if that's the case),and if that ain't true
then what is?
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 30th, 2009, 2:31 am

The scene did not offer an explanation, but the side materials help in understand what transpired in that scene.
First of all, you need to know about Rider's Breaker Gorgon (her eye-patch). Breaker Gorgon is a seal that traps the opponent's mind within the user's mind. It is essentially an offensive tool that disable the opponent. Rider normally uses it on herself, basically trapping her own Mystic Eyes in her own mind. I am not sure how this works, but the resultant effect was the sealing of her Kybele.
In the particular scene you mentioned, Rider deployed her Breaker Gorgon on Shirou, trapping his mind in her world. She did this to siphon energy from Shirou, and regenerate her wounds (she was gravely wounded by Sabre the day before). Since Rider was not physically in Shirou's room, Sabre probably did not detect anything.
However, the interesting part is that, if you read the the 4th day (the day before), you would know by this point Rider is already under Sakura's control, and she should be getting a lot of mana (Sakura has become the man-eating shadow already at this point, and feeding every night). Therefore, Rider should not be needing mana from Shirou. What Nasu suggesting here is obvious...
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 30th, 2009, 5:00 am

Fanservice, eh?
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » August 30th, 2009, 5:42 pm

Although I think she only recovered the basics since the book burned before she disappeared. Although, at this time I thought it was a bit of payback for wrecking her like that, or for trying to spare her life from being under Shinji's controll. Either way I'm sure Rider enjoyed herself fairly much at that time.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 30th, 2009, 7:18 pm

Rider probably has great respect for Shirou rather than hostility. You can discern this when you read the scene in which Rider walked Shirou out of the Matou residence. Also, there is a two-way memory flow between Servant and Master, so Sakura probably fed Rider a lot of fond memories about Shirou.
Note that from this point onward, Rider is always around the Emiya residence, probably in spirit form. As Sakura conversed with Rider several times when Rider was in spirit form. Therefore, if Rider really wanted a true payback, she would have just taken an opportunity and stab Shirou in the neck and suck his blood, or even give Shirou a horrific nightmare.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » August 31st, 2009, 10:30 am

So Rider learnt of the type of person he was by "viewing" Sakura's memories, and since Masters and Servants
have similar interests (usually) so she also developed a liking for Shirou, and decided to please him out of the
"respect" she had for him, and have some fun in the process.Well, I get that, but as far as I know, even if a
Servant is in spirit form, if Servants are close enough to each other, then they will sense each other's presence,
unless one/both of them have Presence Concealment of a decent rank(>B+ I think).It happened so in the Prologue,
when Lancer sensed Archer in his spirit form while he and Rin were patrolling the school, and that specific scene
was shown well in the anime.So how did she get by Saber, who was in the next room?

EDIT:A vague image, but it gives an idea--

Image
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 31st, 2009, 11:37 pm

Yes, I am aware of that too, because I remember Rin said something similar on the first day when they teamed up. Perhaps Servants become less alert when they sleep (highly unlikely), or Breaker Gorgon was cast from a distance.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » September 1st, 2009, 10:42 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Yes, I am aware of that too, because I remember Rin said something similar on the first day when they teamed up. Perhaps Servants become less alert when they sleep (highly unlikely), or Breaker Gorgon was cast from a distance.


So its a "what-if" again huh? Well, what about the boundary field at the Emiya residence? I don't know the details,
so it may be possible to slip through it spiritual form, or it is possible that Sakura cast a spell for preventing
the boundary field to "think" of Rider as a intruder.Also Breaker Gorgon (Mystic Eyes of Petrification) would create
a strange pressure on the target, and if this were true, Saber would then most probably realize the presence
of a Servant, right?
However, Servants in general don't sleep, only Saber did so as she could not return to spirit form to regain energy.
So it might be possible that Rider "tip-toed" into Shirou's room without being noticed, but this would be really
stupid and the possibility cannot be more than 3%, and 10% if Saber is a deep sleeper.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 1st, 2009, 7:58 pm

Yes, there isn't much to go on from the text, saying any more would be fan-wanking. However, I think you are confused about Kybele and Breaker Gorgon. Kybele is the Mystic Eyes of Petrification. Rider cannot control her Kybele, so to prevent her allies from being turned into stone, she uses Breaker Gorgon (her eye-patch), to seal them up. The Breaker Gorgon is analogous to Shiki's Mystic Eyes Killer Glasses, but much more complex. Breaker Gorgon itself is a sealing type Noble Phantasm. It can be used to trap your opponent in your mind, which is essentially what happened to Shirou. He was trapped in a world fabricated by Rider's mind.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby abscess » September 2nd, 2009, 12:16 am

Plot devices work in the most mysterious of ways. Having said that:
Keeper wrote:by this point Rider is already under Sakura's control, and she should be getting a lot of mana

Rider should be getting more than enough mana from Sakura, but wasn't it said that Rider tried to function so she would depend as less as possible from her mana so Sakura wouldn't suffer more from the effects of... magical overload or whatever was that the grail did? I think that something like that was what Rider said somewhere. If I'm right that would probably mean that Rider wanted to feed from Shirou not only because she wanted something from him (due to already mentioned reasons), but because she wanted to put less strain on Sakura.
Dark_Habit wrote:what about the boundary field at the Emiya residence?

Probably the boundary field works something like the old tales about vampires being able to enter one's house. Since Sakura was allowed to freely enter, Rider, by her association to Sakura, was also allowed. Thus the boundary field is rendered innefective for Rider.
Keeper wrote:Perhaps Servants become less alert when they sleep (highly unlikely), or Breaker Gorgon was cast from a distance.

I, too, think that it may have been cast from a distance. If we put together that Saber was asleep (that may mean that her ability to detect other servants is weaker), Rider was "allowed" into the house and that Gorgon was cast from a safe place (maybe Rider was on the roof or outer wall or something) so she could escape/not disturb Saber, Shirou's wet-dream may not be so hard to happen.
Keeper wrote:any more would be fan-wanking.

What I just said fits perfectly there, but I see it as plausible.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » September 2nd, 2009, 3:10 am

From what I can guess she could of casted Breaker Gordon while inside the Emiya Residence. I mean she was technically in Sakura's room for most of the time so that could be a good reason why Saber didn't notice it since she rarely ever went to were Sakura was to begin with.

In any case the very next morning Sakura was kind of upset if you've chosen to tell her about the dream last night.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » September 2nd, 2009, 11:43 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:....I think you are confused about Kybele and Breaker Gorgon....


My bad 'bout that, typing mistake.In fact I think I even interpreted it wrong at that moment.

abscess wrote:Rider should be getting more than enough mana from Sakura, but wasn't it said that Rider tried to function so she would depend as less as possible from her mana so Sakura wouldn't suffer more from the effects of... magical overload or whatever was that the grail did? I think that something like that was what Rider said somewhere. If I'm right that would probably mean that Rider wanted to feed from Shirou not only because she wanted something from him (due to already mentioned reasons), but because she wanted to put less strain on Sakura.


Well, I don't think she needed mana from someone other than Sakura,I mean why would she pick a useless magus
who probably has amongst the least odo of all magi? Also, there was only a strain on Sakura when the crest worm
was activated. Sure it was painful because it was still in her body, although in a passive state, but since Rider had
even managed to recover from those wounds was because she instantly received huge amounts of energy,
which only Sakura could have possibly given, so she probably did it for fun, not energy.

abscess wrote:Probably the boundary field works something like the old tales about vampires being able to enter one's house. Since Sakura was allowed to freely enter, Rider, by her association to Sakura, was also allowed. Thus the boundary field is rendered ineffective for Rider.


That sounds vague, but possible.....

abscess wrote:I, too, think that it may have been cast from a distance. If we put together that Saber was asleep (that may mean that her ability to detect other servants is weaker), Rider was "allowed" into the house and that Gorgon was cast from a safe place (maybe Rider was on the roof or outer wall or something) so she could escape/not disturb Saber, Shirou's wet-dream may not be so hard to happen.


Even with Saber sleeping, she is still very alert to her surroundings, plus if a Servant came as close as 10 or 20
meters, she should realize it.So it may be possible that she snuck into Shirou's room unnoticed, but its highly
unlikely[What I wrote in my previous post was sarcasm ;) ].

Kid-Wolf wrote:From what I can guess she could of casted Breaker Gordon while inside the Emiya Residence. I mean she was technically in Sakura's room for most of the time so that could be a good reason why Saber didn't notice it since she rarely ever went to were Sakura was to begin with.


Mmeh.........I don't think that's possible. Saber mentioned that she could sense Servants upto an area covering
a radius of 100 meters, so Saber would definitely have noticed.....unless Sakura cast a spell.

Kid-Wolf wrote:In any case the very next morning Sakura was kind of upset if you've chosen to tell her about the dream last night.


That maybe true; she was probably expecting him to see her in his dream.
But then again, she never asked a question like "Did you sleep well, Senpai?", to trick Shirou into the topic.
Shirou's own idiocy at saying "Waah, Sakura! If you do that, it'll remind me of last night's dream!",
proved to be his undoing, and I don't think she wanted Shirou to get sick, nor did she expect him
to let her take care of him, as she was pretty confident in saying that Saber was already there to
take care of him.Of course it may be possible that she had planned it out like this already, and predicted
all possibilities to trick Shirou into the situation, but that would require immense luck and brains, the
latter of which I don't think Sakura has.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 2nd, 2009, 5:42 pm

I agree Rider probably did it for pure laughs, because if she desperately needed energy, she could have just drained blood from a few humans like she did before in the park. It is way more efficient that way and not running the risk of being chopped up by Sabre a second time.

Again, you have to remember the sex scenes in Fate never integrated well into the plot. They were just placed there out of obligation as an eroge.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby abscess » September 3rd, 2009, 2:38 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Again, you have to remember the sex scenes in Fate never integrated well into the plot. They were just placed there out of obligation as an eroge.

I partially disagree with that. As incredibly stupid as they are, there are some that you need, even if just for plot advancement. Now, I do know that Realta Nua had them edited out, but I don't know to what extent they changed the story. For example, Sakura's worm crest, or Saber's "mana transfer" scene. I think that, at least for the PC version, those two made sense and fitted in, even if awkwardly.

Rider's.... Now I don't really know why is it there. Fan-service is the only thing that comes to mind.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Dark_Habit » September 3rd, 2009, 11:13 am

abscess wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Again, you have to remember the sex scenes in Fate never integrated well into the plot. They were just placed there out of obligation as an eroge.

I partially disagree with that. As incredibly stupid as they are, there are some that you need, even if just for plot advancement. Now, I do know that Realta Nua had them edited out, but I don't know to what extent they changed the story. For example, Sakura's worm crest, or Saber's "mana transfer" scene. I think that, at least for the PC version, those two made sense and fitted in, even if awkwardly.

Rider's.... Now I don't really know why is it there. Fan-service is the only thing that comes to mind.


Well in the F/SN anime, they showed that transfer of Magic Circuit from Master to Servant, in case of Shirou
and Saber, which fits in well, more so if you haven't played the VN.So if that was possible, then it would also
be possible to edit out one of the HF sex scenes, and omit the rest.............
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
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Re: ? Shapeless Island ?[Spoilers]

Unread postby Zensunni » September 12th, 2009, 1:18 pm

The way I see it...Caster mind controlled Shirou and walked him out of town, and Saber just barely noticed it. There's some other scenes too that demonstrate how abysmally low Shirou's magic resistance is. So, Rider manipulating him the way she did isn't much of a plot hole, even if it was unnecessary fanservice.
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