Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

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Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 23rd, 2009, 3:06 pm

Here is a link to Fuyuki's section on parameter rules.

Based on the assumption that 1 is a "normal" (presumably human) value, it sets E rank at 10, D at 20, C at 30, B at 40, and A at 50. Presumably this means that each of these letter rankings denote a parameter that is 10, 20, etc times that of a normal human - i.e. a Servant with a C in every category is 30 times as strong, 30 times as durable, 30 times as agile, possesses 30 times as much magical energy, is 30 times as lucky, and has a Noble Phantasm 30 times as powerful, as the average human being.

Now, it isn't hard to imagine a Servant having 30 or 50 times the magical energy a normal human would, and while it's strange that any Servant is at least 10 times luckier than the average human, Luck is vaguely defined to begin with, so we'll ignore that. And, of course, the comparison ceases to make sense when we get to Noble Phantasms.

It's the first three that I'm wondering about - Strength, Endurance, and Agility. There seem to be two problems with these rankings as Fuyuki defines them. First off, they seem to imply that every parameter of every Servant can essentially take one of five values, which seems a tad oversimplified. Could you imagine applying a similar system to actual people, one that assumes human strength, what with the 200-something muscles that make up the human body, the bones and tendons they rely on, and the myriad other variables involved, can be summarized with one of five values?

Second, and more importantly, Fuyuki's rankings seem at odds with a number of things we see in the visual novel.

Exhibit A: Caster, with E rank STR, D rank END, and C rank AGI. Are we really supposed to believe she has the strength of 10 men, that her body is 20 times as durable as a normal human body, or that she's 30 times as agile as a normal person? If so, what do we make of the fight scene where she gets her ass handed to her by Rin? Of course, it's possible that Rin had strengthed/enhanced her physical abilities with magic (though it never says that she did, nor does it imply that she's moving at blinding or breakneck speeds - also, Rin, IIRC, doesn't use Strengthening magic), but to increase her abilities twenty or thirty-fold?

Exhibit B: Gilgamesh, with B rank STR, C rank END, and C rank AGI. This would mean, according to Fuyuki, that he possesses 40 times the strength of a human being, and is 30 times as durable and agile. And yet, at the end of Unlimited Blade Works, he's overpowered in melee and then subsequently maimed by a fully-human Shirou. Whatever skill Shirou is able to project along with his swords should not account for him overcoming a being 40 times stronger and 30 times more durable and agile than him.

Any thoughts on this? Is this simply an inconsistent system, wherein the letter ranks are situational approximations, and not to be taken as definitive rankings on a grand, constant scale? Or am I missing something obvious here?
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings

Unread postby Uberoy » August 23rd, 2009, 4:04 pm

Well, first of all, every master sees a servants stats in different ways. This is the most convenient way for Shirou so you shouldnt be able to understand it fully if your not very similar to Shirou.

That Rin vs Caster fight.
Rin must've used strengthenin because unmagical stuff cant hurt servants so she had to use strengthening to a certain degree anyway so why not boost some power aswell?


The Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight.
The reason Shirou won is because Gilgamesh underestemated Shirou and just played with him.


And FYI: Magus are not normal humans.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 23rd, 2009, 6:54 pm

Uberoy wrote:Well, first of all, every master sees a servants stats in different ways. This is the most convenient way for Shirou so you shouldnt be able to understand it fully if your not very similar to Shirou.


Hm, that's worth noting.

Uberoy wrote:That Rin vs Caster fight.
Rin must've used strengthenin because unmagical stuff cant hurt servants so she had to use strengthening to a certain degree anyway so why not boost some power aswell?


I addressed that, in stating that I find it difficult to believe that whatever strengthening Rin used multiplied her abilities by 20 or 30 fold, since Caster is ostensibly 10 times stronger, 20 times more durable and 30 times faster or more agile than a normal human.

The Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight.
The reason Shirou won is because Gilgamesh underestemated Shirou and just played with him.


That explanation only goes so far. It doesn't explain a human being overpowered someone 40 times stronger and 30 times more durable and agile than them.

And FYI: Magus are not normal humans.


Physically, Rin and Shirou are normal humans.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 23rd, 2009, 9:33 pm

Oolinthu wrote:Exhibit A: Caster, with E rank STR, D rank END, and C rank AGI. Are we really supposed to believe she has the strength of 10 men, that her body is 20 times as durable as a normal human body, or that she's 30 times as agile as a normal person? If so, what do we make of the fight scene where she gets her ass handed to her by Rin? Of course, it's possible that Rin had strengthed/enhanced her physical abilities with magic (though it never says that she did, nor does it imply that she's moving at blinding or breakneck speeds - also, Rin, IIRC, doesn't use Strengthening magic), but to increase her abilities twenty or thirty-fold?
Well, first of all, Caster may not be at her optimal condition at this point. remember, she was sustaining Assassin, Archer, Sabre, and herself (her master is not even a magus). Ilya was a mana battery on legs, and she only supplies ONE high class servant. Caster was essentially juggling FOUR. This must be extremely taxing, even if she was an amazing magus. Also, there is the factor that Caster was caught off guard. She was not expecting a magus to charge forward and start to melee with her. She was expecting Rin to use jewel sorcery.

Oolinthu wrote:Exhibit B: Gilgamesh, with B rank STR, C rank END, and C rank AGI. This would mean, according to Fuyuki, that he possesses 40 times the strength of a human being, and is 30 times as durable and agile. And yet, at the end of Unlimited Blade Works, he's overpowered in melee and then subsequently maimed by a fully-human Shirou. Whatever skill Shirou is able to project along with his swords should not account for him overcoming a being 40 times stronger and 30 times more durable and agile than him.

You forgot to take into account that Shirou downloads the skills associated with the weapon he projects and he could even match his attributes to what is required to wield said weapon (as in the Nine Lives scenario). If I remember right, he was fighting Gil with Kansho and Byakuya. He absorbed some of Archer's skills because of their close association, together with what he learned from projecting the weapon, it is entirely possibly that he was fighting at near Servant level during the that battle. Add Gilgamesh's carelessness, our boy Shirou just had a victory that is normally impossible.

I believe the system is a good system, it is just that the characters are never the norm in Nasuverse and the plot is just full of twists and surprises. On the other hand, would you like to read a VN that sounds like a D&D manual that adheres to the rules down to the letter?
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 24th, 2009, 1:44 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Well, first of all, Caster may not be at her optimal condition at this point. remember, she was sustaining Assassin, Archer, Sabre, and herself (her master is not even a magus). Ilya was a mana battery on legs, and she only supplies ONE high class servant. Caster was essentially juggling FOUR. This must be extremely taxing, even if she was an amazing magus. Also, there is the factor that Caster was caught off guard. She was not expecting a magus to charge forward and start to melee with her. She was expecting Rin to use jewel sorcery.


Well, considering it's stated that Caster has an exceptionally high mana capacity on her own, now that she's freed from her previous Master, and that she's augmenting her own supply by stealing mana from Fuyuki's population and channeling it through a ley line, I doubt that mana was the issue. Caster herself states, when Archer defects to her side, that she could have accepted all the Servants. I realize that the element of surprise was at play, but consider what the multiples of 10, 20, and 30, actually mean if taken literally. By those numbers, Caster should be capable of all manner of feats of incredible acrobatics and athleticism. Even the act of swatting at Rin purely in defensive reflex should be enough to send her careening away. She shouldn't be completely overwhelmed by Rin's assault, even if surprised.

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:You forgot to take into account that Shirou downloads the skills associated with the weapon he projects and he could even match his attributes to what is required to wield said weapon (as in the Nine Lives scenario). If I remember right, he was fighting Gil with Kansho and Byakuya. He absorbed some of Archer's skills because of their close association, together with what he learned from projecting the weapon, it is entirely possibly that he was fighting at near Servant level during the that battle. Add Gilgamesh's carelessness, our boy Shirou just had a victory that is normally impossible.


As I recall, in the Nine Bullet Revolver scene, Shirou was using Berserker's weapon and technique, but relying on the strength and overall increased stats coming from Archer's arm. He wasn't able to project Berserker's raw strength; presumably he wouldn't have had Archer's strength without Archer's arm. If this were the case, every time he projected a weapon he'd become as powerful as the hero who originally wielded it, and we know that's not the case.

Gilgamesh's carelessness is commonly cited as the reason for Shirou's victory, but a lackadaisical attitude on Gil's part and the projection of technique alone shouldn't account for the difference, assuming that, as the stats suggest, Gilgamesh is 40 times stronger than Shirou, with a body that's 30 times more durable and agile. Now, if this were an exaggeration, on the other hand, things start to make more sense.

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I believe the system is a good system, it is just that the characters are never the norm in Nasuverse and the plot is just full of twists and surprises. On the other hand, would you like to read a VN that sounds like a D&D manual that adheres to the rules down to the letter?


I wasn't questioning the quality of the Visual Novel. I'm questioning whether or not the system makes sense. TYPE-MOON could have made the novel without including a section detailing Servants' stats and abilities, or ever mentioning a ranking or power level system at all. How enjoyable the novel would be if its stat system did make sense is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it makes sense.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 24th, 2009, 4:06 pm

Oolinthu wrote:Well, considering it's stated that Caster has an exceptionally high mana capacity on her own, now that she's freed from her previous Master, and that she's augmenting her own supply by stealing mana from Fuyuki's population and channeling it through a ley line, I doubt that mana was the issue. Caster herself states, when Archer defects to her side, that she could have accepted all the Servants. I realize that the element of surprise was at play, but consider what the multiples of 10, 20, and 30, actually mean if taken literally. By those numbers, Caster should be capable of all manner of feats of incredible acrobatics and athleticism. Even the act of swatting at Rin purely in defensive reflex should be enough to send her careening away. She shouldn't be completely overwhelmed by Rin's assault, even if surprised.

Yes, this is true, I just remembered Caster saying that too and she probably was not bluffing either. The other possibility is that Rin enchanted herself with some powerful sorcery, but then again, she enchanted herself and only ran 100m in 7s, which is not that amazing (not sonic speed or anything). Perhaps Caster was just REALLY surprised, and perhaps her attempt to break Sabre also distracted her. I can't seem to fanwank anything else at the moment.

Oolinthu wrote:As I recall, in the Nine Bullet Revolver scene, Shirou was using Berserker's weapon and technique, but relying on the strength and overall increased stats coming from Archer's arm. He wasn't able to project Berserker's raw strength; presumably he wouldn't have had Archer's strength without Archer's arm. If this were the case, every time he projected a weapon he'd become as powerful as the hero who originally wielded it, and we know that's not the case.


This I know for a fact that you are wrong here, because I thought exactly as you until someone proved me wrong and provided me with the screen shot. Shirou did literally traced Berserker's strength after analyzing the weapon. The scene is still the "Nine Bullet Revolver", take a look, you might missed it like me. Shirou can indeed copy the hero's personal status from a weapon, however, he may not always use the Noble Phantasms tied to the weapon, because there are various restrictions associated with Noble Phantasms (lineage etc).
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Atriel » August 26th, 2009, 5:15 pm

I wouldn't even take those stats seriously. I felt they were just there to look pretty and/or denote how awesome a servant supposedly was.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » August 27th, 2009, 10:01 am

But why is 1 the normal human level? Fuyuki just states that it is a normal value but that does not mean that a normal human can have a max of one point. For example, given that I am fit for a person of my size. I might have a value of 5 in strength while a reinforced magus might have a value of 15 to 20 in strength, giving them the strength to do incredible things like run 7 seconds in 100 meters. I don't think each point should be seen as a strength of one human.

The author also puts his own thoughts into that page.
Hm, a lot of strange interpretations are going on, but this is the way how I personally see it. For common ability stats, E = expert, D = ace, C = superhuman, B through A = beyond what a human being can accomplish/going to need some god/demonic/dragon/shinpi blood to get these kinds of stats. There are some other theories for this about how back then, in order to even survive people had to be stronger/tougher/faster. Well Bedivere did manage to run way faster than a normal modern human being could so it is possible.


I think that is how it should be seen. Based on my interpretations on his interpretations; E is is the best a human can reach without magic(like a master at some form of martial art), D and C is something that requires some form of magic to accomplish, and B and A are just way beyond normal mages, which is why servants are considered to be incredibly powerful since a good number of the servants that I have seen so far have very good stats.

Taking that into account, I think it would explain why Rin is able to overpower Caster and for Emiya (assuming that Shirou is reinforcing himself or getting stat increases through tracing weapons) to go head to head with an arrogant Gilgamesh.

So my point is that I think that the points should not be seen the way that they are before. Plus, I think a major point of the holy war was to not depend too much on the stats of a servant since every class has a strength and weakness and it depends on the strategy and teamwork of the masters and servants to get ahead. For example, Berserker, one of the strongest servants stats wise, seems to get owned pretty badly in all three arcs. And if you take a look at Ilya and Berserker's strategy, it is pretty much nothing except "hey, let's fight that guy, he or she interests me". Not that his losses are completely due to poor strategy making, but I believe that a smarter master could have gone a lot farther.

or it could be what Atriel suggested. That the stats are just there to impress others and have no real bearing in the battles in FSN.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 27th, 2009, 7:39 pm

Mmm, I would buy TheRedArcher's argument. So basically a servant is not "uber" in any department unless he/she has a C or above. From Arai's wording, it seems that a normal human enhanced to the absolute maximum can reach a rank of C. Assuming Rin is top notch at enhancement sorcery, then this would explain nicely how she can beat up Caster for a short time.
Shirou's case is easier to comprehend because he essentially gains weapon mastery of whatever he projects.

However, TheRedArcher, I think your example of Ilya and Berserker does not do the pair justice. Ilya is as knowledgeable and maybe even as skilled as Rin. She is very intelligent and is one of the more competent masters in the Fifth War. For example, in UBW, when she and Berserker fought Sabre and Archer simultaneously, she correctly perceived that Archer might be a foe even more dangerous than Sabre after Berserker blocked the Broken Phantasm. In Fate, she also silently observed the battle between Rider and Sabre, and subsequently took advantage of the situation to eliminate the defeated master.

In all cases that Berserker was defeated, if you examine the situation carefully enough, Ilya did not actually make any strategic error.
In Fate, Ilya actually made the correct decision to strike the iron when it is hot: relentlessly pursue the Emiya party in an attempt to eliminate them all. After all, the two masters can't do anything, and Sabre is on the brink of death. Berserker's defeat was caused by Shirou's epiphany in projection, but no one, and I mean no one, except Archer, could expect a failure like Shirou to produce a weapon that is Noble Phantasm grade.
In UBW, it was Gilgamesh who was on the offensive, and Ilya knew immediately they were outmatched. The attempt to escape was a failure, Erikidu just sealed their fate. Again, no strategical error was made by Ilya.
In Heaven's Feel... hell, what CAN you do when Dark Sabre has her eyes on you and she is swimming in a bottomless mana pool?
If you want an example of a master that lacks a clear strategy, pick Shinji. From Ilya's behaviour as a master, and her subsequent interaction with the Emiya gang, you can tell she is very knowledgeable, and has a clear grasp of the situation (she was giving Shirou and Rin a lot of good advice on how to survive and win).
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » August 28th, 2009, 8:56 am

I guess I was a little harsh when using Ilya as the poster child of poor masters. Looking at your argument, I can agree that she is not an idiot. However, I find that Ilya is definitely not one of the smarter masters. There are times that her arrogance in having one of the strongest servants have got in the way of her decision making. It is arrogant of her to believe that she can just parade around with a giant servant and give away one of the greatest weaknesses to the enemy, your servant's name, and expect to win gloriously. I would not call that one of the best strategies since I see no benefits from telling your enemy your servant's name. What would happen if Saber or Archer just happen to have a NP that can specifically target out Heracles? What would happen if Shirou's servant happens to be Gilgamesh? If either of the possibilities is true, the servant would definitely think, "What!?! Heracles!?! Sweet! I believe I'll start preparing to use this NP to take him down since this NP is well known for bringing down Heracles or is an effective tool to exploit Heracles weakness." Although you can say that the chances aren't that high, but, once again, there are no benefits to giving out your weakness at that time.

There was also the time when Berserker is heavily wounded by Archer. Berserker needed time to heal and felt that he must be in full condition to fight against the fleeing Saber. Ilya completely ignores that and due to her impatience and arrogance, she feels that she had to chase them immediately. However, this strategy is not stupid and I would probably make the same decision if I were in her shoes. But, she did not even pause to take think about any kind of precautions they should think about or prepare in order to fight Saber. She should not have disregarded Berserker's instincts since Berserker should be adept and well experienced at fighting. Hell, he even has the "Eye of the Mind" ability, which gives him a sixth sense to danger. Although, I don't know if that is how the ability works, but I would definitely think that I should at least stop to think about the danger that might take place when chasing Saber.

I also said that Berserker did not necessarily get defeated by a strategic flaw. But a smart master who is more interested in winning the war with a Berserker would not necessarily make the choices that Ilya made, who seemed somewhat indifferent about the war and more about, "Shirou is charming young fellow, maybe I should kill him or capture cause I feel like it and not because I want to win the war". It would be a smart decision to kill the master, but I believe that there are more effective ways to bring about the outcome than blatantly showing yourself to the opponent. In my opinion, a surprise attack killing Rin then attacking Saber might have been more effective, but then again, who knows what would happen with that strategy. (With what you can probably tell from my strategy, I would prefer to use an Assassin class servant) =).

To sum up my point, I agree with given what she has, she can make reasonable decisions. However, her arrogance gets in her way and her priorities do not correlate with the true goal of the war, to win the holy war. And a more determined master can probably use a Berserker more effectively strategy wise.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 28th, 2009, 7:11 pm

I don't think Berserker can foresee the result of an upcoming confrontation. His "Eye of the Mind" is more like "spidey sense". Berserker blocking the Broken Phantasm illustrates how this ability works. It only helps him sense immediate danger.
Mmm, ya, but I do agree that Ilya parading around the identity of her servant is rather foolish.
There is really very little you can do with a Berserker class servant strategically, as they are just blunt weapons with no intelligence. The track record of Berserkers has been terrible in the Grail Wars.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Gearhead » September 16th, 2009, 1:47 pm

On a side note about Servants and Masters, I was curious about something.

True Assasin's darks are thrown as fast as bullets because of his throwing skill, and Saber and Lancer can easily block those. Souichirou, even though he caught Saber off-guard the first time, was still able to easily keep up with and over-power her (albeit, with reinforced fists). So, does that make Souichirou faster than a bullet? Archer and Saber have the same Agility score, but Saber couldn't keep up with Souichirou, yet Archer just destroyed him.

Does reinforce up all of a person stats, or just their endurance? It was said to make Souichirou's fists as hard as steel, but I don't think it ever mentioned increasing his speed.
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Re: Servant Stats and Rankings (spoilahz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » September 16th, 2009, 7:46 pm

Souichirou is fast, but he is not as fast as a bullet. True Assassin's dirk is very fast, but remember no matter how fast they are, they travel in a straight line. As long as Sabre can detect when the dirks are thrown and see the path they travel, she can parry them easily. However, Souichirou's Snake Style is different. Even though Sabre could see Souichirou's punch and dodge them, his fist still hit Sabre in the back of her head (the attacks came from strange angles). It is not that Souichirou was too fast for Sabre, rather, Sabre did not expect to be hit in the back of her head after the punch already blew pass her. The Style caught Sabre off guard.
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