Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

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Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 26th, 2009, 9:44 pm

I've seen quite a few interpretations of what they actually are and decided to give my own for discussion:

Reality Marble, aka Innate Bounded Field, is, as the name says, nothing but a very powerful Bounded Field. It is NOT the inner world or the act of expanding it outside one's consciousness. First of all, the whole "expanding the inner world outside" thing is just ridiculous. It sounds as if only during the activation of an RM the person uses his own "common sense" to look at the world(RMs are originally the ability of demons and spirits to apply their common sense to the world outside them). Now, my idea is different: the person's inner world, leaving RMs aside for a while, is constantly trying to expand itself and affect the outside world(Gaia). But since Gaia has a common sense of it's own(laws of physics, laws of nature, etc), it fights back and simply prevents humans from affecting their enviroment with their common sense.

Now this is where RMs come. The RM is not the act of expanding the inner world, but rather a boundary barrier that cuts Gaia off from a section of it and allows the inner world to expand and change the world to it's image. This also explains why the RMs of magi are so weak - they aren't a natural part of Gaia like spirits and demons(they came to exist after the planet's creation) and thus the world crushes the RM - the boundary that separates it from the "contaminated" area. Then the inner world is put back into it's place in one's mind simply because Gaia doesn't need to actively do that - it's common sense is much more complex?/strong?/large? than a human's and thus it's able to prevent interference from a human's common sense due to being more powerful.

...That makes absolutely no sense to me...
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 27th, 2009, 2:02 am

Yes, I am in general agreement with your interpretation. Reality Marble is just like any other offensive barrier, it interferes with the operation of objects and people trapped inside it, and provides the user some sort of advantage.

However, the relationship between RM and Gaia is not a case of one trying to cut the other off. As Fuyuki describes it, the relationship between RM and Gaia is more of a case of competition, a competition of Gaian order and the order that the user is trying to exert. Essentially, your surrounding physical world will conform to the strongest order that is present. For a user of RM, they are able to project the order they have in mind, their Reality Marble, and temporarily overwrite the rules of Gaia (laws of physics such as conservation of mass etc). Because in the area surrounding the magus, the strongest order is the one he projects, the environment thus conforms to it and becomes a literal duplicate of his inner world. The environment eventually reverts back to Gaian order when the magus stops projecting his order (stop supplying mana).

Essentially, anyone who can exert a foreign order onto their surrounding can deploy a reality marble. The method of exerting this foreign order may vary, it can be an active spell, like Archer's. In extreme cases such as ORT, because the order exerted by ORT is so strong, the surrounding will automatically conform to his order without him even lifting a finger.

Hope this clears up the confusion.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 27th, 2009, 2:39 am

Well there is one more that has a RM on them and that would be the poor little vampire Sacchin with her Depletion Garden. Although I kind of wonder if they had any more in depth info about her ablity on Fuyuki Wiki at all or not.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Altima of the Gates » July 27th, 2009, 2:41 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Yes, I am in general agreement with your interpretation. Reality Marble is just like any other offensive barrier, it interferes with the operation of objects and people trapped inside it, and provides the user some sort of advantage.

However, the relationship between RM and Gaia is not a case of one trying to cut the other off. As Fuyuki describes it, the relationship between RM and Gaia is more of a case of competition, a competition of Gaian order and the order that the user is trying to exert. Essentially, your surrounding physical world will conform to the strongest order that is present. For a user of RM, they are able to project the order they have in mind, their Reality Marble, and temporarily overwrite the rules of Gaia (laws of physics such as conservation of mass etc). Because in the area surrounding the magus, the strongest order is the one he projects, the environment thus conforms to it and becomes a literal duplicate of his inner world. The environment eventually reverts back to Gaian order when the magus stops projecting his order (stop supplying mana).

Essentially, anyone who can exert a foreign order onto their surrounding can deploy a reality marble. The method of exerting this foreign order may vary, it can be an active spell, like Archer's. In extreme cases such as ORT, because the order exerted by ORT is so strong, the surrounding will automatically conform to his order without him even lifting a finger.

Hope this clears up the confusion.


Now that is a good explanation but i fail to see how that it is different from the usual explanation. How would one come to the realization to deploy a Reality Marble? Why couldn't anyone with a decent knowledge of magecraft perform it?

Image

In UBW route before Shirou used UBW, it seemed that he had to come to a realization of what it was, the mental world had to be made complete, that there was some bit of understanding that needed to be made. Dunno, this makes the most sense to me.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 27th, 2009, 4:25 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:Now that is a good explanation but i fail to see how that it is different from the usual explanation. How would one come to the realization to deploy a Reality Marble? Why couldn't anyone with a decent knowledge of magecraft perform it?


I am not attempting to churn out a new explanation, what I did is essentially paraphrasing Fuyuki. Also, you just answered your own question, anyone with a decent knowledge of magecraft can perform it. However, the keyword here is "decent". Unless you are one of the rare individuals like Shirou, it is extremely difficult to comprehend the concept of reality marble and create one. This does not mean it is impossible though, anything can be achieved given enough time. There is a reason every DAA has a reality marble. They have lived long enough to understand and wield them. If a run-of-the-mill magus can live for a few hundred years, he can create his own reality marble.

Altima of the Gates wrote:In UBW route before Shirou used UBW, it seemed that he had to come to a realization of what it was, the mental world had to be made complete, that there was some bit of understanding that needed to be made. Dunno, this makes the most sense to me.

Yes, I did remember this explanation, but I don't find it as clear as the one given by Fuyuki. This is mostly because I can only find very vague explanation for the concept of World Egg (I actually think it is not an actual entity, but a concept formulated by magi).
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 27th, 2009, 3:50 pm

Not EVERY DAA has a RM. Most of them have one.

KoGV's idea was generally a different phrasing of mine...
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 12:05 am

SolarAdept wrote:Not EVERY DAA has a RM. Most of them have one.

KoGV's idea was generally a different phrasing of mine...


You are right, we don't know if every one of them has a RM, but one thing is for sure, all the cool DAA's got a RM. My explanation is indeed a different phrasing of your interpretation, that is why I said "I am in general agreement with you". I wrote my explanation down because I think it is important to emphasize the idea of "Order" here. The reason a reality marble is so amazing is that it can compete and over-ride the Gaian order, thus altering laws of nature. Also, the eventual dissipation of a reality marble is also tied to the idea of "Order". Two orders cannot co-exist, one must dominate the other. As soon as the magus' support of the reality marble falls short, the Gaian order will dominate again and revert the environment back to its previous state.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » July 28th, 2009, 12:19 am

I pretty much agree with what is being said. But I still have a question.

A RM is a projection of their own "common sense". Then it seems pretty weird to me that Archer's and Shirou's RM are nearly identical (note that I don't say completely). I remember that it has been mentioned that Archer and Shirou are pretty much two different people. Just like how I am not going to be the same person 5 years into the future (hopefully). So the two should have a different version of "common sense" since not everyone thinks the same way. In UBW, the two even have completely different opinions on certain events and ideals. So why is Shirou's and Archer's RM similar to the point that the RM pretty much does the exactly same thing?
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 12:35 am

I don't know the answer to this question. However, I think Shirou/Archer's reality marble has more to do with their "affinity" and less to do with their ideals. Shirou said he has a surprising understanding of swords, and Rin said Shirou's element is probably "swords". I am just throwing this out there.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 28th, 2009, 12:42 am

I'd say it's because the reality marble Unlimited Blade Works is a materialization of both his ideal and the ultimate conclusion or "ending" he reached following it. The end result of his ideal doesn't change, whether he turns his back on it, or decides it's worth pursuing anyway. Maybe, I'm really just speculating.

It is worth noting, however, that Heavens Feel Shirou can't use Unlimited Blade Works, precisely because "Archer's world and mine are too different."
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 28th, 2009, 2:11 pm

HF Shirou can use it with sometraining, which contradicts your statement.

Also, Archer's UBW and Shirou's UBW are not identical - the black smog and gears in Archer's world are the manifestation of his "I wish I didn't become a hero" emoism, while Shirou's is bright and clear, just like he is optimistic and has no regrets. The general idea is the same, but their view on that end is different.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 28th, 2009, 2:17 pm

Where does it say that HF Shirou can use Unlimited Blade Works with training? I thought he couldn't use it, period, and was limited to projection.

It's been a while since I played UBW, so I hadn't noticed the black smog in Archer's reality marble, and I'd assume the gears were also in Shirou's marble. But if it's as you say, that would certainly answer RedArcher's question.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 28th, 2009, 2:30 pm

Well since he obtain the GARm it has the ability to manafest UBW if he tried, but since he obtained a new body thanks to Illya he is unable to call up that Reality Marble. The reason for it is because his original body had the ability to attempt UBW and with the GARm he is able to project pretty much anything, but in doing so shortens his lifespan drastically.

Although since he obtained a new body at the end of the HF route it's kind of doubtful that he can do it. Besides he has to be with Sakura pretty much every night to do normal everyday things.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Mazyrian » July 28th, 2009, 3:17 pm

Though at the end Rin says that with training he should be able to deploy UBW.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 28th, 2009, 4:02 pm

^ Guy says it all. After all, only his body changed - his inner world is still the same. It's not like you become a completely different person when you get a new body (save for Roa's case).
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 7:14 pm

Mazyrian wrote:Though at the end Rin says that with training he should be able to deploy UBW.


I vaguely remember seeing something like this. If this were true, it will complete undermine the theory that UBW is a manifestation of Shirou's ideal. Someone better take a screen shot of this.

It kind of makes sense that a reality marble is not tied to something as abstract and intangible like "ideal". Otherwise, how do you explain the random magi who created their reality marble through research? A reality marble is probably just an ability that can be learned. Shirou is just one of the few who comprehended the nature of reality marble without fully understanding the sorcerous theory behind it.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 28th, 2009, 8:22 pm

It's the inner world. I don't remember where, but I remember reading in the VN that even HF Shirou will eventually reach similar destruction to EMIYA and the other more idealistic Shirous. UBW is less ideal, more his being a sword that fights for others rather than for himself. Basically, his unselfishness to the point of being mentally ill.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 11:57 pm

I know it is tempting to call a reality marble the user's inner world as Shirou himself has stated so, but this relationship is not always applicable to all users of reality marbles. Take Nero for example, his Lair of the Beast King is more of a immortality experiment gone wrong. Instead of the reality marble being a representation of Nero's inner world, the Lair of the Beast King itself is threatening to overwhelm Nero and assimilate him. In this case, the reality marble is almost a symbiotic/parasitic entity rather than a "pocket universe" like the UBW. Another example is the aforementioned Crystal Valley. The Crystal Valley is not a inner world, it is merely ORT's overwhelmingly strong Mercurial Order leaking out.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby abscess » July 29th, 2009, 2:23 am

Maybe by inner world they refer to a mix of their affinity and how they see the outside world. If that was the case, then it's feasible that Archer's and Shirou's RM can do the same thing (or at least very similar) but the place feels different. Probably the inherent quality of the weapons created in each world also differ from one another.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby ayami123 » July 30th, 2009, 6:21 pm

well where did you find the Rin Tosaka said that he can use UBW he can't maybe he just had a new Reality Marble.

Isn't that he throw his ideals away making a new one. you know the world with full of important people. maybe that's what Rin wants to say. that shiro can already create a reality marble at that time because its already 2 years or so maybe that the nine lives blade works (also called Nine bullet revolver)itself is a Reality Marble ability.
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