Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Gumaster » August 10th, 2009, 5:08 am

On the same line of thought as the previous post, I have a few questions as well.
How does space work with the world and a reality marble? UBW is described as an "endless" plain of swords, yet if it was a 1:1 space ratio that would mean technically the world is enveloped in UBW, which obviously isn't the case. So from that, I assume space in RM=\=space in real world. Especially since when shirou used it against gil, rin/saber didn't enter it, and they weren't too far away. But then, what happens when you move around inside UBW? Lets say you enter UBW, run 10km one way, then dispel it. Where would you be in the real world?

And, a further question. What does a RM look like to someone in the real world? A barrier of fire (in the case of UBW)? Nothing? Could someone "walk" into a RM thats been set up?

And finally...doesn't Nrvnqsr state that the Soil of Genesis is a) a reality marble comprised of over 500 of his parts and b) taught to him by the Serpent. Whats more, he uses it to restrain Arc, so its properties are nothing like UBW.

So many questions ;o;
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 10th, 2009, 6:11 am

So many questions indeed, I will give them a shot here. So as I pray, Wall of Text.
abscess wrote:I don't remember if this has already been asked but, how big can a Reality Marble be? I mean, Archer and Shirou release something that grabs everyone in a vicinity and transports them into his little pocket world, but how big is that pocket world of his? World size? Just some kms?

I do not believe it is exactly a pocket world. In fact, I think both the user and the victims are still on Earth. Picture this, the reality surrounding you is just made of playdough, and it can be molded by something called "Order". Your usual surrounding is the way it is because the "playdough" is being shaped by Gaian Order. The user of a reality marble is able to alter/overwrite this Order, thus shaping the "playdough" to his wishes. As the environment conforms to this new order projected by the magus, the reality marble becomes materialized. Because of this, I think the size of the reality marble will depend on the user's ability, such as experience, magical affinity, and most importantly, prana. So, what I am hypothesizing is that, if you run far enough in a reality marble, you can see a boundtry between the reality marble and the unaffected world. This is hinted in the ORT entry. As the reality marble Crystal Valley is described as ORT's lair, which means that it has boundaries.

For the next question, let's suppose that it grabs people in around a 10 meter radius (I'm just making up number so don't take anything specific here), what happens to the 10 meter radius in the real world? It just keeps on going unchanged?

This sort of falls back to the previous question. The 10 meter radius of space is still there. This 10 meter radius of space exists to conform to an order. If the Gaian Order is dominant, it is just a regular piece of land. If, let's say, ORT's Mercurian Order is dominant, it becomes part of his crystal valley. You can say the land/environment is blank, you may paint it anyway you like through "Order".

Gumaster wrote:On the same line of thought as the previous post, I have a few questions as well.
How does space work with the world and a reality marble? UBW is described as an "endless" plain of swords, yet if it was a 1:1 space ratio that would mean technically the world is enveloped in UBW, which obviously isn't the case. So from that, I assume space in RM=\=space in real world. Especially since when shirou used it against gil, rin/saber didn't enter it, and they weren't too far away. But then, what happens when you move around inside UBW? Lets say you enter UBW, run 10km one way, then dispel it. Where would you be in the real world?

This is the original quote from the UBW route:
UBW route: Last Fight wrote:Our[Shirou and Gilgamesh] voices overlap. The change happens in an instant. The light coming from the lake eliminates the hill of swords. A great magical energy has smashed away the already-disappearing Reality Marble.

There are two things to notice here. First of all, since the passage is narrated in first person, this suggests that Shirou can see the lake from the Reality Marble, that mean it is not endless. Secondly, the reality marble fades gradually (possibly in the fashion of a shrinking circle), which may be due to Shirou's dwindling mana. I think both of these points back up my theory. They also answer your question: Reality Marble space = real world space. So if you enter UBW, run 10km one way, then dispel it, you will be 10km from where you started in real world. HOWEVER, AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, UBW does not seem to bend the laws of space. So if someone's reality marble does bend space, and I know there are indeed such ones, I am not sure where exactly you would end up at.

And, a further question. What does a RM look like to someone in the real world? A barrier of fire (in the case of UBW)? Nothing? Could someone "walk" into a RM thats been set up?

From all the sources I have come across, it seems you can just walk into a reality marble.

And finally...doesn't Nrvnqsr state that the Soil of Genesis is a) a reality marble comprised of over 500 of his parts and b) taught to him by the Serpent. Whats more, he uses it to restrain Arc, so its properties are nothing like UBW.

Soil of Genesis is a whole thing by itself, it is a great spell from the Age of Gods, long thought lost. You can consider the Soil of Genesis as an application of Nero's reality marble.

@Gumaster: Those are some hardcore questions. They actually prompted me to re-read a lot of stuff. I hope I am conveying to you a clear idea.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Gumaster » August 11th, 2009, 4:53 am

I see, I see. I misinterpreted Arcueid's question to Nrvnqsr about his reality marble/the 'cage'. I thought it was referring specifically to the Soil of Genesis but..alright, that makes sense.

Not sure if this matters but when Archer casts UBW in the underground temple, Shirou notes that "his spell does not affect the world." Dunno if this is of any relevance or not, I just thought I'd put it here. More importantly though, after Archer casts UBW, Shirou thinks that "After that, my surroundings are replaced by this strange world." and "A field of swords without owners extends to the horizon of the desert." Considering they were in a underground room before, I find it hard to think that their surroundings are still visible. That's the only real problem I have left now.

Random slightly off topic thing I noticed: Rho Aius is described ingame as a "boundary field Noble Phantasm". Would that make it similar to a reality marble, like Nrvnqsr's body? Archer also mentions that "I used up most of my magical energy, one of my arms is destroyed, and Aius is shattered. It could be me misinterpreting it again, but isn't that implying that if he had enough energy to do so, he wouldn't be able to pull out Aius again? Since, it sounds like he couldn't just project another one, like he does with Caladbolg II.
Unrelated thing: It also mentions each layer is as strong as a castle wall, but, the layers are like flower petals and so dont actually overlap do they? Though...it could be exlained if it was indeed more like a reality marble than an actual shield. And...are castle walls REALLY that strong, especially since its blocking noble phantasms we're talking about here?

WOO WALLS OF TEXT.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 11th, 2009, 7:25 pm

Gumaster wrote: Dunno if this is of any relevance or not, I just thought I'd put it here. More importantly though, after Archer casts UBW, Shirou thinks that "After that, my surroundings are replaced by this strange world." and "A field of swords without owners extends to the horizon of the desert." Considering they were in a underground room before, I find it hard to think that their surroundings are still visible. That's the only real problem I have left now.

I never thought about what would happen if you materialize a reality marble underground. Well, since the underground temple is rather small, UBW could have completely overwritten it. This means that for the duration of the reality marble, the temple does not exist, only UBW exists in its place. As a result, you would not see the temple. Now as to what you would see at the edge of the reality marble in this case, I have no clue, bedrock?

Random slightly off topic thing I noticed: Rho Aius is described ingame as a "boundary field Noble Phantasm". Would that make it similar to a reality marble, like Nrvnqsr's body? Archer also mentions that "I used up most of my magical energy, one of my arms is destroyed, and Aius is shattered. It could be me misinterpreting it again, but isn't that implying that if he had enough energy to do so, he wouldn't be able to pull out Aius again? Since, it sounds like he couldn't just project another one, like he does with Caladbolg II.
Unrelated thing: It also mentions each layer is as strong as a castle wall, but, the layers are like flower petals and so dont actually overlap do they? Though...it could be exlained if it was indeed more like a reality marble than an actual shield. And...are castle walls REALLY that strong, especially since its blocking noble phantasms we're talking about here?


I think you could have mixed up Rho Aias with another NP. Rho Aias is a "conceptual weapon/armor". A boundary field is essentially a barrier (think of it as a dome), and except for very, very few cases, they are immobile and takes a long time to setup. I highly doubt Rho Aias falls into this category. Rho Aias can be projected multiple times, it was not permanently broken by Lancer. In fact, Archer shielded Shirou from Gilgamesh with another Rho Aias near the end of the story (I thought Shirou projected it, but Nasu himself explicitly stated it was projected by Archer).
As for your second question, the defensive power of Rho Aias does not come from its physical properties. Like I mentioned earlier, Rho Aias is a conceptual weapon/armor, which means its power comes from the concept it embodies. Although Rho Aias looks flimsy, the concept it represents is "absolute defence against projectile weapons", which allows it to block Lancers full power spear launch. The petals of Rho Aias do not overlap, they shatter one by one as the shield breaks.
And finally, considering how Rho Aias can block Gilgamesh's GoB long enough for Shirou to finish chanting his longer UBW spell, castle walls must be really strong. I guess folks from Age of Gods really know how to build their walls?
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Masterori » August 12th, 2009, 4:40 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:So many questions indeed, I will give them a shot here. So as I pray, Wall of Text.
abscess wrote:I don't remember if this has already been asked but, how big can a Reality Marble be? I mean, Archer and Shirou release something that grabs everyone in a vicinity and transports them into his little pocket world, but how big is that pocket world of his? World size? Just some kms?

I do not believe it is exactly a pocket world. In fact, I think both the user and the victims are still on Earth. Picture this, the reality surrounding you is just made of playdough, and it can be molded by something called "Order". Your usual surrounding is the way it is because the "playdough" is being shaped by Gaian Order. The user of a reality marble is able to alter/overwrite this Order, thus shaping the "playdough" to his wishes. As the environment conforms to this new order projected by the magus, the reality marble becomes materialized. Because of this, I think the size of the reality marble will depend on the user's ability, such as experience, magical affinity, and most importantly, prana. So, what I am hypothesizing is that, if you run far enough in a reality marble, you can see a boundtry between the reality marble and the unaffected world. This is hinted in the ORT entry. As the reality marble Crystal Valley is described as ORT's lair, which means that it has boundaries.

For the next question, let's suppose that it grabs people in around a 10 meter radius (I'm just making up number so don't take anything specific here), what happens to the 10 meter radius in the real world? It just keeps on going unchanged?

This sort of falls back to the previous question. The 10 meter radius of space is still there. This 10 meter radius of space exists to conform to an order. If the Gaian Order is dominant, it is just a regular piece of land. If, let's say, ORT's Mercurian Order is dominant, it becomes part of his crystal valley. You can say the land/environment is blank, you may paint it anyway you like through "Order".

Gumaster wrote:On the same line of thought as the previous post, I have a few questions as well.
How does space work with the world and a reality marble? UBW is described as an "endless" plain of swords, yet if it was a 1:1 space ratio that would mean technically the world is enveloped in UBW, which obviously isn't the case. So from that, I assume space in RM=\=space in real world. Especially since when shirou used it against gil, rin/saber didn't enter it, and they weren't too far away. But then, what happens when you move around inside UBW? Lets say you enter UBW, run 10km one way, then dispel it. Where would you be in the real world?

This is the original quote from the UBW route:
UBW route: Last Fight wrote:Our[Shirou and Gilgamesh] voices overlap. The change happens in an instant. The light coming from the lake eliminates the hill of swords. A great magical energy has smashed away the already-disappearing Reality Marble.

There are two things to notice here. First of all, since the passage is narrated in first person, this suggests that Shirou can see the lake from the Reality Marble, that mean it is not endless. Secondly, the reality marble fades gradually (possibly in the fashion of a shrinking circle), which may be due to Shirou's dwindling mana. I think both of these points back up my theory. They also answer your question: Reality Marble space = real world space. So if you enter UBW, run 10km one way, then dispel it, you will be 10km from where you started in real world. HOWEVER, AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, UBW does not seem to bend the laws of space. So if someone's reality marble does bend space, and I know there are indeed such ones, I am not sure where exactly you would end up at.

And, a further question. What does a RM look like to someone in the real world? A barrier of fire (in the case of UBW)? Nothing? Could someone "walk" into a RM thats been set up?

From all the sources I have come across, it seems you can just walk into a reality marble.

And finally...doesn't Nrvnqsr state that the Soil of Genesis is a) a reality marble comprised of over 500 of his parts and b) taught to him by the Serpent. Whats more, he uses it to restrain Arc, so its properties are nothing like UBW.

Soil of Genesis is a whole thing by itself, it is a great spell from the Age of Gods, long thought lost. You can consider the Soil of Genesis as an application of Nero's reality marble.

@Gumaster: Those are some hardcore questions. They actually prompted me to re-read a lot of stuff. I hope I am conveying to you a clear idea.


Don't quote me on this but I believe in Fate/Zero when rider used his reality marble I forgot who said they disappeared so on my opinion it is a pocket world a pocket world without limit to size as it's the users inter world. As for the seeing river think of it this way a girl wearing a white shirt ( for a more graphical and pleasant image ) gets constantly sprayed with water what do we see YES oppai transparency think of the water as gigan forcing the world back into it's original place as it's a irregular that shouldn't be there. Think of the girl's body as a reality marble we would see from the inside that it's gradually growing transparent and eventually with the whole shirt will fall to pieces due to constant pressure now think of the shirt as prana required for the reality marble, does every one get what I'm going at?. As for targeting I believe it's the user that chooses who to bring in after all it is their inter world
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Gumaster » August 12th, 2009, 4:41 am

Guess I was just reading too much into him saying that Aius was shattered. It's jsut that it seemed like an unnecessary statement, if he could just keep throwing out Aius again and again, but whatever, maybe it was just there to convey that Archer expected the lance to be stopped with the current Aius still intact. Anyways,



"boundary field Noble Phantasm" as I quoted. *cue TAKE THAT with Phoenix Wright pose*
...It seems like Umineko and PW has made me really like to counter arguments with stuff.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 12th, 2009, 5:46 am

I will have to admit this come as a pretty big surprise. It did not catch my attention when I read through it. It is also surprising that Fuyuki did not include it under the Bounded Field category. I guess Rho Aias shares more similarity with a barrier than an actual shield. A reality marble is a subcategory of bounded field, but it is much more complex compared to a regular barrier and is something that an average magus cannot obtain. Rho Aias and UBW both fall under Bounded Field, the similarity ends there. Just like apples and oranges, they are both fruits, but the similarity ends there.

Also, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to sieve through the text for the screen shot. Hard evidence trumps fan-wanking, any day of the week.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Gumaster » August 13th, 2009, 4:31 am

Nah, it's just that I have a save at all the epic moments. So it only took me about a minute to get that screenshot xD
And besides, it's not like I have anything better to do...wait until you see my post in the MB section >_>
Slightly offtopic, but is white len's snowy field considered a reality marble too? does it DO anything?
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby shirou12 » August 13th, 2009, 1:32 pm

I think the concept of rho aius as a boundary field NP is DIFFERENT from UBW as a reality marble. In short we cannot say that rho aius is a reality marble because it is a boundary field phantasm, its character may only activated in a certain span that would protect its user thus a big difference from the meaning of boundary field in a reality marble.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 14th, 2009, 1:12 am

I have never played through Melty Blood, so I do not have a clue about White Len's power. However, I don't think familiars can conjure up reality marbles and Len has never popped up in any of the reality marble discussions I have come across.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » August 14th, 2009, 10:19 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I have never played through Melty Blood, so I do not have a clue about White Len's power. However, I don't think familiars can conjure up reality marbles and Len has never popped up in any of the reality marble discussions I have come across.


Well for W. Len it's more along the technicality that she has the rements of the TATARI and has the orginal set-up as Len. As fo rLen she doesn't have a Reality Marble per se since she does things like that in your dreams. Although I'm kind of supprised someone mentioned anything about Len to begin with, since MeltyBlood mostly focused on Sacchin and her Reality Marble she can do.
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Re: Reality Marbles in general (spoilerz)

Unread postby Magnaking » August 6th, 2011, 5:43 pm

I have a Question about Nero Chaos's Reality Marble Lair of the Beast King, Is he the only character in the Nasuverse who can deploy a reality Marble in himself? Because I'm in the process of creating a Servant who has the power to do so, because Fate/Extra's playable Caster's form of Magecraft uses the elements in her body, so, this came to mind. so can he?
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