What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 27th, 2009, 1:22 am

@Oolinthu: For some reason that idea feels more along the line of a fanfic than anything else if you ask me. Besides it would be best if they went into the Hollow Ataraxia way of telling things due to the fact thatAngra Manyu was there from the getgo. I mean not only was he inside of the grail and took over Sakura to begin with he managed to salvage Bazzet's soul during her story. Even though it ended up being more about Karen and the reinactment of the 3rd HF War at night.

I mean even though Hollow Ataraxia was considered a dream sequence it can be considered an cannanised version of it since it explained a bit more about the Avenger Servant in the 3rd HF along with a better idea and relationship with the Masters and Servants that were invovled in the 5th HF War. Besides this explains that any of the 3 storylines can work with this since Sakrua was the Greater Grail to begin with, but has gone unnoticed. As for Shinji he managed to live in UBW, and as for Illya she managed to like in Fate.

Although I'd rather see Fate/Zero as an anime first before they even think of doing Hollow Ataraxia. Although they could do Fate/Strange Fake, since it is the same concept, but with a different setting and different characters with the exception of Gil. of course.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Thanatos » July 27th, 2009, 7:23 am

SolarAdept wrote:Actually, Arturia's still a Heroic Spirit. I mean, come on, King Arthur! Heroic Spirits(records of great heroes who won fame WITH THEIR OWN POWER) and Counter Guardians(Like EMIYA, who was ordinary, but relied on Alaya to get to the level of a Heroic Spirit) are different things.

Now, if she were to take the Grail she would become a CG.


she is a hero but not heroic spirit means not a servant, and cant be summoned by the grail anymore (coz its destroyed and her contract with it wasnt fullfilled, she just died without becoming a true servant) and like archer and shirou said she should never become a servant, thats how it ended in the end, she didnt become a servant...
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby nanaya_shinya » July 27th, 2009, 9:36 am

Thanatos wrote:[she is a hero but not heroic spirit means not a servant, and cant be summoned by the grail anymore (coz its destroyed and her contract with it wasn fullfilled, she just died without becoming a true servant) and like archer and shirou said she should never become a servant, thats how it ended in the end, she didnt become a servant...


Hence Realta Nua ending?
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 27th, 2009, 2:05 pm

@Kid-Wolf: Well, of course it's a fanfic, I came up with it and I'm a fan. Obviously the sequel doesn't have to be like the scenario I came up with in the space of two minutes. By the by, it's based on Heavens Feel's True Ending, while my favorite arc was Unlimited Blade Works, so I'm not just promoting my favorite ending. That's not really the point. The point is that if Nasu wanted to write a real sequel, he'd have to do one of two things:

Either 1.) come up with an entirely new scenario involving Servants or a Grail (it is, after all, the concept of the Servants that makes Fate/Stay Night what it is) with an entirely new cast of characters and little to no references to the original storylines, or 2.) bite the freaking bullet, pick an ending to be designated as "the" ending, and write from there. Option number 2 is going to piss off fans, whichever arc Nasu picks, but that's inevitable. In the words of Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, fans are clingy complaining dipshits who'll never ever be grateful for any concession you make. But I believe option 2 would be the better, more honest way of going about it if Nasu really wanted to write a sequel.

What he's written so far, Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, isn't a sequel. I'm not saying it isn't good, just that it's not a true sequel. Admittedly, I haven't played through it, but all I need to know to know that it's not a sequel is that, like Kagetsu Tohya, it's a dream sequence. If at the end of your narrative it's revealed that everything that happened, didn't really happen, then you haven't written a sequel - you've developed characters and/or expanded the series' universe, but you haven't actually continued the narrative.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 27th, 2009, 3:48 pm

*facepalm* First of all, a Servant is a Grail War-only concept. Forget that the Grail War exists for a moment - do you think that Herakles, Cuchulainn, Iskander, Gilgamesh and other epic heroes made a contract with the world to become heroes? That's preposterous! Even if she didn't take the grail and complete her contract with the World, she is still a hero who is revered by the people - hence a Heroic Spirit.

Heroic Spirits are the information of a hero that is created once he dies and it is formed by dressing the truth with the myths. Knight's Honor for example. It's not like Lancelot immidiately became uber proficient with every goddamn weapon he took in his hands when he was alive. But myths that stated that he was an uber hax weapon master, coupled with the truth that he WAS a master of weapon usage, created this NP.

Your point that Arturia's a hero and not a Heroic Spirit is self-contradictory - as long a person is a hero who is rememberd by the people, he becomes a Heroic Spirit automatically.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 27th, 2009, 4:35 pm

Well from what I can understand from all of this it seemed that some people think that Kagtsu Tohya was an excuse to further explain Tsukihime at that time. Although it was nothing more then the added excuse of having Len show up and actually have "fun" with Shiki like the other girls did... except Sacchin since Nasu wanted to make her even more sad. Either that or because he wanted her all to himself.

In any case Hollow Ataraxia is not just one day it's 4 days long. If you think about it another anime series is currently running the loop bit and it is getting mixed reviews. Although I did play through the game even though it was more along th eline of CG collecting then reading. Although from the CGs of this linear storyline sort of tells the story of the Lost Servant. Besides the loop for that is explained properly since Avenger only lasted in the 3rd HF for 4 days.

Beisdes the way things went with that if this does get animated it can follow the anime storyline in a way. Besides the was the game worked was everything was brought back to the point of the first night where Shirou had Saber as his Servant. Aside from that they can make up an excuse for Saber going into her "Dark Mode" though.

Also, as I stated before if you think they need to do a new story from scratch well these is the Strage Fate fic that could work out no problem then.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Thanatos » July 27th, 2009, 6:31 pm

SolarAdept wrote:Your point that Arturia's a hero and not a Heroic Spirit is self-contradictory - as long a person is a hero who is rememberd by the people, he becomes a Heroic Spirit automatically.


and where do you have this info from? or would u call an hero, heroic spirit instead of hero? xD

i mean this spirit thing and servant thing, means dead and so on... as we know she wasnt dead and couldnt turn to spirit form coz of this, but saber died after the grail was destroyed, so the grail cant take her as servant anymore, thus she didnt become a servant, not only coz her contract wasnt completed.

if nasu find a way to summon heros not servants then we could see her again^^ (not by grail)

"Finally, Servants exist only within the context of the Heaven's Feel in Fuyuki. " thats from typemoon wiki, so no grail no servants?

EDIT: i think i get what u mean, but I/we are talking about heros in FSN not in general, in the context with the grail, and there saber didnt become a servant!
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 27th, 2009, 8:46 pm

Servant=/=Heroic Spirit.

Here's some text from fuyuki:

Heroic Spirits

英霊 - Eirei

A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.

A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.

Those who accomplished great deeds during life and became objects of reverence and lore after death. The greatest entities that exist as a force "that protects humanity" and are categorically closer to elementals than wraiths. While elementals are a power that uses "images" created by humans to serve as a container to materialize, what's inside that container for Heroic Spirits is also strung together by the hopes and wishes of mankind. Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those of legends, those that actually existed, and those that remain unknown.

Of course, since there are so many crises going on in the modern era and being solved in the blink of an eye, nowadays nobody is really fit in the grand body of humanity to be called a "hero", at least in respects to those from the past.

Normally, Heroic Spirits are summoned as pure power. Receiving a form and a mind similar to what they were back when they were alive is limited only to the Fuyuki Grail War. Generally when Heroic Spirits are summoned, they're used in Kuchiyose or oracles (as in power is channeled through a medium who then makes prophetic statements or what not).

From the 3rd Heaven's Feel, spirits that aren't technically Heroic Spirits (such as the 5th Heaven's Feel's Rider and Caster) have been summoned. As long as the spirit has a side that is also like a Heroic Spirit, they are summoned, with the obvious limitations of the Greater Holy Grail.

Basic powers are not sufficient to contend against powerful thaumaturgy and mysteries, but their Noble Phantasms can allow them to even destroy higher ranking spirits. While having attributes that are similar to elementals due to divinity, worship (wishes), or contracts with the world, they are/were fundamentally human. A Heroic Spirit will not become a god just by worship, however. Normally exist as neutral personality-less power that can be tapped into. Located in the Throne of Heroes, a different plane of existence separated from the cycle of transmigration (i.e. time). Once incorporated into the world system, they are impossible to erase/destroy, unless an error/paradox occurs that becomes too complicated for the world to support. And even so, this doesn't guarantee that they'll cease to exist; they will continue to exist, no matter what happens.

Copies/emanations/projections are sent out from the Throne of Heroes across all times. What is gained and learned from the emanation is not carried on over to the Heroic Spirit to prevent any paradoxes in what ought to be a completed/perfected/finished being. However, the record of what happened is returned to (or rather, has always been in) the Throne, as well as the power that was sent out to solve the problem. This applies to all Heroic Spirits, not just Archer.

Arthur's soul is still alive and not in the Throne yet as she is not a Heroic Spirit. Which is why she carries on the direct memories instead of a record of what she did each time until she obtains a Holy Grail. In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.

While modern weapons are powerful, those people who use modern weapons mainly are somewhat difficult to be put in the Heroic Spirit category. The greatest advantage of modern weapons is that "anyone can use them with the right training". But see, the thing behind that is that because of that, it's hard for them to become "one sole existence". These are what people call faceless heroes. If there is a hero that has on him modern weapons, what's going to be treated as the Heroic Spirit isn't the owner, an expert that anyone can become by training, but the "most excellent weapon of that era" itself. The weapon itself would have to have a soul however.


Basically, after Arturia dies, she will become a HS.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Thanatos » July 27th, 2009, 10:38 pm

no she wont ^^ coz the grail is destroyed, lets say she died, but the grail was destroyed before her death, so it coulnt "record" her as heroic spirit, thus i believe she cant be summoned by grail anymore.

from the fuyuki wiki: Arthur's soul is still alive and not in the Throne yet as she is not a Heroic Spirit. Which is why she carries on the direct memories instead of a record of what she did each time until she obtains a Holy Grail. In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.

and when she die there is no grail to make her a servant, like i said before, and only the grail can summon servants!

its not like i dont wanna see her again in a "possible" sequel but thats just should not be possible... just like shirou wished she should never become a servant...
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 12:21 am

Thanatos, SolarAdept is actually correct, stop arguing with him now. Let me outline this for you.

Heroic spirits are kept by the Throne of Heroes. The Throne of Heroes is outside of the temporal plane. It is said to be part of Akasha, the root of all things. You can picture the Holy Grail as a photocopier that has the power to make copies of the original heroic spirits that are stored in the Throne of Heroes.
Sabre is a very complex case, she was stuck in the loop of Heaven's Feel because of her World Pact. In other words, Sabre was not copied from the Throne of Heroes like Lancer and Berserker, she was summoned as a servant because of the World Pact enabled her to.

There are two possibilities for her after the Fate ending:

1. The World Pact was void because she chose death and did not succeed in obtaining the Holy Grail. In this were true, a hero with Sabre's calibre will definitely be stored in the Throne of Heroes. So, let's ASSUME the Einzberns are successful in making another grail, there is a chance that Sabre can be summoned as a full-fledged servant. (I believe this is what SolarAdept is trying to tell you)

2. The World Pact was still in place, so Alaya gets Sabre as a counter guardian because of the contract. In this case, Sabre's situation would be identical to Archer's in all aspects.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 28th, 2009, 12:39 am

You know for some reason that would explain why Saber remebered all of the 4th HF War. So that could mean she became a C.G. just to obtain the Grail. Although that would mean if the HF War ever continues she has a high probablity of being summoned to fight for it. Although it's most likely won't be in Fuyuki at all if the Grail War is reproduced elsewere if you ask me.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 1:28 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:You know for some reason that would explain why Saber remebered all of the 4th HF War. So that could mean she became a C.G. just to obtain the Grail.

Not quite. Sabre was not a counterguardian while fighting the 4th and 5th Heaven's Feel. She was just locked in temporal suspension and awaiting to join every available Grail War. It is essentially an endless dream for Sabre, and that's why she could remember events of the 4th Heaven's Feel in the 5th. Normal servants do not remember anything even if summoned again into the same timeline. This is why the case of EMIYA is so very sad, he could never find redemption, because whatever Servant Archer did in the 5th war does not affect the EMIYA in the Throne of Heroes.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 28th, 2009, 2:08 am

Forgive me if my question was already answered in game. I played this non-stop for a few days, racking up over 48 hours in a matter of like 4 days. So some details might have escaped me.

Was the Grail not destroyed in the 4th War? Or was it destroyed differently in the 5th War by Saber? This is referring to the Fate and UBW endings, I think.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Thanatos » July 28th, 2009, 8:22 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:1. The World Pact was void because she chose death and did not succeed in obtaining the Holy Grail. In this were true, a hero with Sabre's calibre will definitely be stored in the Throne of Heroes. So, let's ASSUME the Einzberns are successful in making another grail, there is a chance that Sabre can be summoned as a full-fledged servant. (I believe this is what SolarAdept is trying to tell you)

2. The World Pact was still in place, so Alaya gets Sabre as a counter guardian because of the contract. In this case, Sabre's situation would be identical to Archer's in all aspects.


to me thats just not logical, no pact no servant simple... and why else was she in avalon (i think) in the last episode and not in the throne of heroes?...

to your second point: here from typemoon wiki: "Saber made a pact with the World as she was dying; she would be allowed to try and obtain the Holy Grail to grant her wish. In exchange, if she succeeds, she will finish her life and become a Counter Guardian after her death, a sub-category of a Heroic Spirit at the service of the World. Because of this pact, she is in fact still alive and "frozen" in her dying state when she travels through time to obtain the Grail, and is summoned as a Servant in the Grail War."

first if she succeeds she will become a counter guardian, but she didnt, from this info she could become a heroic spirit but never a counter guardian...

belive what u want, i believe what i think, without official infos no one of us know for sure... I'll stop the discussion here...


to answer smartazjb0y's question, in the 4th war only the physical form of the grail was destroyed, in the 5th it was destroyed completely
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby shirou12 » July 28th, 2009, 9:10 am

i think its like this

heroic spirits are those spirits of the past heroes who was honored by the people. even if they didn't make a pact on the grail, they will still become heroic spirits because of the people who honored him/her like Arturia's case.

in saber's case, she seek the holy grail to fulfill her wish which is why she made a pact on it to get the grail on every opportunity came but in reality, she is already dead as recognized by the people but it will only change when the grail fulfills her wish. her spirit is already trapped on the time plane but still her legacy goes on.

therefore, whether saber destroys,recreates,seeks or doesn't seek etc. for the holy grail SHE IS STILL RECOGNIZED AS A HEROIC SPIRIT because of the people who made her to become like that. it will only change if the grail fulfills her wish.

if ever saber finally dies and become a fully heroic spirit, she still has an option to become a servant by responsing to the call of the summoner. heroic spirit and servant are two different things.

^just a response

but we are getting offtopic thats why i post some on topic messages.

if i would ask, i guess the fate strange something (the one with gilgamesh as hero and enkidu) is much appropriate. gilgamesh is already connected by the fate zero FSn ad such lol.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 28th, 2009, 10:27 am

The important difference to note here is that a heroic spirit doesn't owe the world anything. A heroic spirit can be summoned in a Grail War if he/she chooses to answer the summons. Counter Guardians on the other hand, have made a pact with the world in exchange for something, and as such, have no choice but to act as part of the Counterforce when called to. If Saber's World Pact was fulfilled, she becomes a Counter Guardian and her situation becomes more or less identical to Archer's. Otherwise, she dies like everyone else, and theoretically her existence is recycled - but not before the throne of heroes makes a "copy" of her existence and adds "King Arthur" to its collection of heroic spirits.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 28th, 2009, 11:14 am

smartazjb0y wrote:Forgive me if my question was already answered in game. I played this non-stop for a few days, racking up over 48 hours in a matter of like 4 days. So some details might have escaped me.

Was the Grail not destroyed in the 4th War? Or was it destroyed differently in the 5th War by Saber? This is referring to the Fate and UBW endings, I think.

Well in Fate/Zero Saber was asked to destroy the Grail against her will. Although at that time the Grail materialized a bit sooner than what it should of been. Although it wasn't enough to destroy it completely though.

As for the 5th HF there were three takes on it. One was in Fate Saber destroyed the Grail willingly since she found out it was tainted before it was summoned. The second was UBW where Saber destroyed the Grail under Rin's orders since it turned out to be mutated because Shinji was a poor choise for the conduit. As for HF the Grail was closed off by Illya and depending on which ending you got she gave up her body to save Shirou. Not only that, but Sakura still has the ability of the Greater Grail. Meaning she can keep Rider even without the Command Seals.

So in the end the Grail may have been destroyed by Saber in two endings there is still a chance that the Grail War will be picked up once again during it's normal interval of 60 years instead of 10. As for HF that might be a different story all together since most people would say it's a proper lead-in for Hollow Ataraxia.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby abscess » July 28th, 2009, 12:44 pm

Didn't Velvet-something came up and crap-up the remaining Grail-thingy after the war in Fate and UBW? If that was the case, then that's it for FSN.... at least in Fuyuki city. Maybe they can create another Greater Grail (or something) somewhere else where the Association has close to no influence.

Wasn't there something that said that there's practically no info about magic in South America? If that's the case, then probably the Association doesn't give two shits about that part of the world, meaning that could be a nice place to go to create another of those things.
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 28th, 2009, 2:33 pm

quote="abscess"]Wasn't there something that said that there's practically no info about magic in South America? If that's the case, then probably the Association doesn't give two shits about that part of the world, meaning that could be a nice place to go to create another of those things.[/quote]

But what if they ran into ORT while trying to creat another Grail? I mean if ORT obtains it then heaven help us all.

Also, I will never be able to eat that delicious cake after all. lol
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Re: What would you want in a sequel? Spoilers!

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 28th, 2009, 3:05 pm

Isn't ORT supposed to be retarded overpowered anyway? I thought he was just waiting for the other Aristotles to wake up or arrive or finish jerking off or whatever, so they can all destroy the world and humanity together.
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