SolarAdept wrote:Actually, Arturia's still a Heroic Spirit. I mean, come on, King Arthur! Heroic Spirits(records of great heroes who won fame WITH THEIR OWN POWER) and Counter Guardians(Like EMIYA, who was ordinary, but relied on Alaya to get to the level of a Heroic Spirit) are different things.
Now, if she were to take the Grail she would become a CG.
Thanatos wrote:[she is a hero but not heroic spirit means not a servant, and cant be summoned by the grail anymore (coz its destroyed and her contract with it wasn fullfilled, she just died without becoming a true servant) and like archer and shirou said she should never become a servant, thats how it ended in the end, she didnt become a servant...
SolarAdept wrote:Your point that Arturia's a hero and not a Heroic Spirit is self-contradictory - as long a person is a hero who is rememberd by the people, he becomes a Heroic Spirit automatically.
è‹±éœŠ - Eirei
A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.
A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.
Those who accomplished great deeds during life and became objects of reverence and lore after death. The greatest entities that exist as a force "that protects humanity" and are categorically closer to elementals than wraiths. While elementals are a power that uses "images" created by humans to serve as a container to materialize, what's inside that container for Heroic Spirits is also strung together by the hopes and wishes of mankind. Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those of legends, those that actually existed, and those that remain unknown.
Of course, since there are so many crises going on in the modern era and being solved in the blink of an eye, nowadays nobody is really fit in the grand body of humanity to be called a "hero", at least in respects to those from the past.
Normally, Heroic Spirits are summoned as pure power. Receiving a form and a mind similar to what they were back when they were alive is limited only to the Fuyuki Grail War. Generally when Heroic Spirits are summoned, they're used in Kuchiyose or oracles (as in power is channeled through a medium who then makes prophetic statements or what not).
From the 3rd Heaven's Feel, spirits that aren't technically Heroic Spirits (such as the 5th Heaven's Feel's Rider and Caster) have been summoned. As long as the spirit has a side that is also like a Heroic Spirit, they are summoned, with the obvious limitations of the Greater Holy Grail.
Basic powers are not sufficient to contend against powerful thaumaturgy and mysteries, but their Noble Phantasms can allow them to even destroy higher ranking spirits. While having attributes that are similar to elementals due to divinity, worship (wishes), or contracts with the world, they are/were fundamentally human. A Heroic Spirit will not become a god just by worship, however. Normally exist as neutral personality-less power that can be tapped into. Located in the Throne of Heroes, a different plane of existence separated from the cycle of transmigration (i.e. time). Once incorporated into the world system, they are impossible to erase/destroy, unless an error/paradox occurs that becomes too complicated for the world to support. And even so, this doesn't guarantee that they'll cease to exist; they will continue to exist, no matter what happens.
Copies/emanations/projections are sent out from the Throne of Heroes across all times. What is gained and learned from the emanation is not carried on over to the Heroic Spirit to prevent any paradoxes in what ought to be a completed/perfected/finished being. However, the record of what happened is returned to (or rather, has always been in) the Throne, as well as the power that was sent out to solve the problem. This applies to all Heroic Spirits, not just Archer.
Arthur's soul is still alive and not in the Throne yet as she is not a Heroic Spirit. Which is why she carries on the direct memories instead of a record of what she did each time until she obtains a Holy Grail. In her case, she is more or less frozen in her time and what she experiences each time is like a dream to the body in her time line. As she's binded to that, she's still considered "dead" in the modern world, meaning she won't age, can't take surgery, etc., just like other Servants. Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.
While modern weapons are powerful, those people who use modern weapons mainly are somewhat difficult to be put in the Heroic Spirit category. The greatest advantage of modern weapons is that "anyone can use them with the right training". But see, the thing behind that is that because of that, it's hard for them to become "one sole existence". These are what people call faceless heroes. If there is a hero that has on him modern weapons, what's going to be treated as the Heroic Spirit isn't the owner, an expert that anyone can become by training, but the "most excellent weapon of that era" itself. The weapon itself would have to have a soul however.
Kid-Wolf wrote:You know for some reason that would explain why Saber remebered all of the 4th HF War. So that could mean she became a C.G. just to obtain the Grail.
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:1. The World Pact was void because she chose death and did not succeed in obtaining the Holy Grail. In this were true, a hero with Sabre's calibre will definitely be stored in the Throne of Heroes. So, let's ASSUME the Einzberns are successful in making another grail, there is a chance that Sabre can be summoned as a full-fledged servant. (I believe this is what SolarAdept is trying to tell you)
2. The World Pact was still in place, so Alaya gets Sabre as a counter guardian because of the contract. In this case, Sabre's situation would be identical to Archer's in all aspects.
smartazjb0y wrote:Forgive me if my question was already answered in game. I played this non-stop for a few days, racking up over 48 hours in a matter of like 4 days. So some details might have escaped me.
Was the Grail not destroyed in the 4th War? Or was it destroyed differently in the 5th War by Saber? This is referring to the Fate and UBW endings, I think.
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