Rho Aias (Spoilers)

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Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 10th, 2009, 11:22 am

I have a theory about why Archer can project it.

As many people agree, EMIYA is probably from an alternate world where he was not summoned. My guess is that Heracles was summoned as an Archer for his NL NP and Ajax(aka Aias) got summoned as Berserker. Thus, EMIYA had the chance to see Rho Aias in action and later the ability to project it since UBW recorded it for him.
Last edited by SolarAdept on July 10th, 2009, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rho Aias

Unread postby Vhailor » July 10th, 2009, 2:07 pm

In the original story, Ajax was a former servants from the 4th holy grail war but Nasu finaly didn't use the idea. As far as we know, Archer is a different s timeline shirou and we can suppose Rin didn't summon him. But concerning the part about Herakles as Archer, i really doubt that since he was summoned a month ago before the 5th HF and as we know Einsbern who wanted a full control upon the servant, as a Berserker.
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Re: Rho Aias

Unread postby Mazyrian » July 10th, 2009, 3:21 pm

But if he's from another timeline where Emiya wasn't Archer then all kind of things could be different in HF5, like the other Servants. Saber was the same, but aside from that nothing is certain.
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Re: Rho Aias

Unread postby Vhailor » July 10th, 2009, 4:17 pm

sure but the root would still be the 4th HF and the "betrayal" of Emiya Kiritsugu to the Einsbern. Maybe the won't summon Herakles but i don't think so. But this is speculation. Many things are possible at this point.
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Re: Rho Aias

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 10th, 2009, 5:14 pm

Doesn't mean that they must summon him as a Berserker. Herakles is more useful as an Archer/Saber since that way his NP is much more effective.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Vhailor » July 10th, 2009, 5:27 pm

Well, in the Visual Novel, it is said that the Einsberns, tired of being betrayed, ect ect, summon Herakles as Berserker on purpose. The goal was to get a servant who wouldn't make troubles.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 10th, 2009, 6:05 pm

It still is possible that they summoned Herakles as an Archer. A simple Command Seal-fuelled order like "Don't betray me" would be enough.

Plus, Ajax could be summoned as Lancer. He DID use a spear a lot in the Iliad.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Vhailor » July 10th, 2009, 7:18 pm

Well, i don't agree with what you said about the command spell. In the prologue, Archer explain to rin a command spell with no clear specifications like your exemple are weak. "Dont betray me" is too subjectiv to be efficient (for exemple, Herakles, understanding the true nature of the Grail, could choose to destroy it in order to protect his master. He is not betraying him but he is not acting as he would desire.).

I have nothing to say about Ajax. I don't know his stats and, well, even if he does not have a famous polearm type weapon, i think if he meets the requirement of the class Lancer, he would be elligible. I guess a Lancer version of Ajax would grant him something lancer-like.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » July 10th, 2009, 7:21 pm

But putting a long term command spell such as "don't betray me" might not be affective. When Rin summoned Archer, Archer even said that it was reckless of Rin to use her first command spell in that fashion for it might not be as effective as she would like to think it was. Rin was lucky that the spell was effective, but it is still very risky.

Although, it is a parallel universe where different scenarios can happen so there might be one universe where Herakles was summoned as an Archer or Saber. Even if it is unlikely for the Einsberns to summon Herakles outside the Berserker class.

As for Ajax being a Lancer, what would be his noble phantasm (other than Rho Aias of course)? It would be odd to be a Lancer when you don't have a Noble Phantasm reflecting that class or when you aren't especially famous for using a spear.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 10th, 2009, 7:23 pm

Ajax used a spear and an axe in the Iliad. He used the spear during his fight with Hector and during the retreat of the Achaeans. That's generally enough. I'd guess that he would have around B rank in the three physical stats, C or D in MGI, E in Luck and B or A in NP, since I guess that that's Rho Aias's rank.

You don't have to have a spear NP to be a Lancer. All you need is to be known as someone who used a spear. Ajax used a spear a lot.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » July 11th, 2009, 1:40 am

why is the thread's title "Rho Aias" again? o.ô
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 11th, 2009, 1:45 am

Cuz we're talking about why GARcher can use it.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby shirou12 » July 11th, 2009, 3:36 am

lol maybe on his quest on becoming a superhero, he accidentally came to greece lol.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 11th, 2009, 10:12 am

And? Went back to the Age of the Gods, where he saw Ajax's shield?
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Vhailor » July 11th, 2009, 10:24 am

Solar Adept is right about the spear thing concerning lancer :p. You just need A rank agi and an out-standing skill in fighting to be a potential Lancer. And the use of a spear is very common to warriors so no problem bro :D. This is why i was talking about a lancer type version of Ajax but truely, i don't know how Nasu would put this.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 11th, 2009, 12:17 pm

Not A but B rank in AGI. I remember seeing that somewhere.

Ajax is the Archer of antiquity - not even once did he get help from the gods, unlike just about every hero during the Trojan War, and he still was the second/third best after Achilles and Diomedes, with whom he shared the second place(they were evenly matched according to some sources).
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Vhailor » July 11th, 2009, 5:03 pm

I disagree but that's not the subject.

That is the standard for a servant Lancer
Lancer
STR B CON C AGI A MGI D LCK E
And it is also specified that Lancer being a Servant type requiring the greatest agility as well as outstanding close combat ability.
(source : Side Material.)
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 11th, 2009, 11:59 pm

Well, the Rho Aias projected by Archer is a conceptual weapon/armour. This means that it is not necessarily THE shield wielded by Ajax, but it fully embodies the concept of "absolute defence against projectiles". As a result, Archer could have come across it without time travel.
Now a POTENTIAL scenario could be as follows:
Archer came across a shard of the original Rho Aias during his life time. Because of his ability to analyze the composition, and most importantly, the history and concepts carried by an item, he was able to extract the Noble Phantasm (in this case, an idea) and wield it. The scenario could be somewhat similar to how Shirou extracted Nine Lives from a mere stone slab. Also, backwards time travel is highly unlikely, since as far as we know, time travel, particularly backward time travel, is still considered a True Magic.

Also, the originals in the Throne of Heroes are not altered after induction. So even if Archer has seen Rho Aias as a servant, he will not be able to use it the second time around. Archer must have come across Rho Aias when he was alive.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 12th, 2009, 2:50 pm

Go and read the description of Rho Aias again. It is a copy of the original. And even if you see a Servant's NP, you can still project it(at least EMIYA/Emiya can).

That's why I said that Ajax was summoned during the 5th round of HF in EMIYA's past.
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Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 12th, 2009, 11:05 pm

I have indeed read the descriptions of Rho Aias, several versions of it. However, my interpretation of it may be different from yours. The way I understand it is that, the Original Rho Aias is the bronze shield covered with ox hide. The 7 petal version is the concept of "absolute projectile defence" derived from the original shield. Archer/Emiya did not see the ox hide shield, but he could have gotten the concept somewhere. e.g. a fragment of the original shield, a javelin that had been blocked by Rho Aias. This is plausible due to the Nine Lives scenario I mentioned previously.
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