Rho Aias (Spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby knightstemplar » July 23rd, 2009, 10:40 am

In my own opinion i thought he could use Rho Aias because of the fact he is a Guardian and therefore is removed from the time axes to fix things in bad times, and i thought that he might have come across it if he was summoned during ancient times to "fix" something, therefore getting to know what it was and everything.

-KnightsTemplar
knightstemplar
Totally hardly posted
 
Posts: 16
Joined: June 26th, 2009, 8:53 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 23rd, 2009, 1:37 pm

Counter Guardians, like Heroic Spirits, are already complete(perfect?) and thus cannot gain new abilities after becoming GARdians.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby ayami123 » August 2nd, 2009, 1:57 pm

SolarAdept wrote:
Go and read the description of Rho Aias again. It is a copy of the original. And even if you see a Servant's NP, you can still project it(at least EMIYA/Emiya can).

That's why I said that Ajax was summoned during the 5th round of HF in EMIYA's past.


Counter Guardians, like Heroic Spirits, are already complete(perfect?) and thus cannot gain new abilities after becoming GARdians.


I think your right. but you said that counter guardians are already complete or perfect so i think he already know about the rho aias think even if he doesn't see it.
but i'm not so sure about that. :)

but to think that he also said to lancer, "Your speared is much stronger than the original gungnir." might also mean't that he also met odin in the past" what i like to point out maybe the ajax was not summon as lancer cause odin was there ???? so if odin was there what do you think ajax's Servant Class ???
Those who blame things on others, please blame yourself.
I have no reason to live the only thing that make me alive are the people that I think I treasured.
Those who Hesitate are lost.
User avatar
ayami123
Posting more than n00bs
 
Posts: 23
Joined: July 30th, 2009, 2:56 pm
Location: Manila

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » August 2nd, 2009, 6:38 pm

By perfect/complete I mean that their states when they became HS/CGs are the final version. No more changes can be done.

He probably met Odin during one of the "hell"s that he was summoned to as a Counter Guardian. The memories he had from the times he was summoned as a "cleaner" were retained, but no new abilities can be achieved. And that means that his UBW's memory bank is the same as it was when he died, means no Rho Aias after death.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 2nd, 2009, 9:15 pm

SolarAdept wrote:The memories he had from the times he was summoned as a "cleaner" were retained.

I know this is in fact true, because Archer revealed on numerous occasions that he remembers all his exploits as a counter guardian. However, I still find this in conflict with the principle that Heroic Spirits are frozen and cannot be altered. To me, knowing something you should not have known basically alters you slightly.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Uberoy » August 2nd, 2009, 9:24 pm

But isn't CG and regular Heroic Spirits different? Something like CG's sent to "clean" are the real deal and not just a copy?
But I shall forgive you. Some things are beautiful because they cannot be obtained.
User avatar
Uberoy
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: May 4th, 2008, 9:11 pm
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 2nd, 2009, 9:38 pm

That was what I thought too, but here is the "official explanation":
fuyuki wrote:Copies/emanations/projections are sent out from the Throne of Heroes across all times. What is gained and learned from the emanation is not carried on over to the Heroic Spirit to prevent any paradoxes in what ought to be a completed/perfected/finished being. However, the record of what happened is returned to (or rather, has always been in) the Throne, as well as the power that was sent out to solve the problem. This applies to all Heroic Spirits, not just Archer.

Apparently what you learned through an experience can mess up your "perfect existence", but reading a record of such an experience will not. I can never say I understand this stuff.

Edit: Looking at this description, it seems to imply that Counter Guardians functions exactly like Heroic Spirits, except Counter Guardians have an employer while Heroic Spirits are free agents. i.e. Counter Guardians are pulled out as copies too, the originals always stay in the throne.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby ayami123 » August 3rd, 2009, 1:27 am

By perfect/complete I mean that their states when they became HS/CGs are the final version. No more changes can be done.


if you say that no more changes can be done then why do archer regret his action. when he became a counter guardian didn't he change by regretting more
that he became a CG. well i do fully understand their perfection mean but i think it's possible that he saw the rho aias when he was a guardian or that he already now the image after he became a perfect being. for me being perfect means you know everything am i right ?
Those who blame things on others, please blame yourself.
I have no reason to live the only thing that make me alive are the people that I think I treasured.
Those who Hesitate are lost.
User avatar
ayami123
Posting more than n00bs
 
Posts: 23
Joined: July 30th, 2009, 2:56 pm
Location: Manila

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » August 4th, 2009, 5:52 am

@Keeper Exactly. Actually, the HS/CGs don't have access to those records. It's kept within the Counter Force/Throne of Heroes.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 4th, 2009, 5:05 pm

Wait what? I thought HS and CG's have access to all the records. I remember Sabre saying that the reason Servants do not behave out of place when summoned to present day is that they can read all about it in the Throne.

On a side note, Sabre summoned to the present era without such records:

"Oh my Lord! Chariot drawneth not by horses!? Blasphemous!"
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 4th, 2009, 5:34 pm

This, of course, is after Saber gets over the fact that she's been summoned in an occult ritual by a heathen Japanese boy. People (Nasu included) seem to forget that King Arthur was as much a champion of Christianity as of Britain.
User avatar
Oolinthu
Addict
 
Posts: 76
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 2:17 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Uberoy » August 4th, 2009, 5:59 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Wait what? I thought HS and CG's have access to all the records. I remember Sabre saying that the reason Servants do not behave out of place when summoned to present day is that they can read all about it in the Throne.


Isn't it more like that servants summoned by the holy grail get's the common knowledge from, I dunno, the grail?
But I shall forgive you. Some things are beautiful because they cannot be obtained.
User avatar
Uberoy
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: May 4th, 2008, 9:11 pm
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » August 4th, 2009, 7:30 pm

The system of the HGW allows them to get basic info about the modern age from the Greater Grail.

Nasu likes to conveniently forget such details Keeper.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby RinTohsaka » August 8th, 2009, 5:01 pm

I may be wrong but if I remember correctly :

1> The experience gained in battle by a Heroic Spirit or Guardian is stored in the body of the HS or G.
2> Archer (or atleast Shirou) stores his blueprints in his magic circuits (is this correct?) which is strictly a part of his body.
3> Blueprints of noble phantasms would (in Archer's case atleast ) be equivalent to battle experience (Tell me if I'm wrong).

=> Archer may have picked up the Rho Aius during his life as a guardian.It's not necessary that he obtained it while alive.
RinTohsaka
Totally hardly posted
 
Posts: 14
Joined: May 14th, 2009, 11:28 am

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 8th, 2009, 9:25 pm

RinTohsaka wrote:I may be wrong but if I remember correctly :

1> The experience gained in battle by a Heroic Spirit or Guardian is stored in the body of the HS or G.

The body of these entities will always be frozen and remain unaltered, this I am certain.

2> Archer (or atleast Shirou) stores his blueprints in his magic circuits (is this correct?) which is strictly a part of his body.

Blueprints are stored in the reality marble, which would imply the knowledge of the weapons are associated with Shirou/Archer's soul.

3> Blueprints of noble phantasms would (in Archer's case atleast ) be equivalent to battle experience (Tell me if I'm wrong).

Yes, but they are lost and never returned to the body in the throne. Only the Akashan record is accessible to the body in the throne.

=> Archer may have picked up the Rho Aius during his life as a guardian.It's not necessary that he obtained it while alive.

This cannot be stated definitely, since during his mission, only a copy is sent out and the original body can only read about the result in the form of a "record". What this means is that, the body in the throne never "sees" or "experiences" the weapons in person, consequently UBW cannot record these weapons.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby RinTohsaka » August 9th, 2009, 10:44 am

I'm only a newbie so forgive me if I say something wrong.
Keeper of the Gil's vault wrote:Blueprints are stored in the reality marble, which would imply the knowledge of the weapons are associated with Shirou/Archer's soul.
Hmm...perhaps I didn't understand this bit correctly...but at a point in the fight with Gilgamesh ,before realising UBW ,Shirou actually stops reading the weapons because he fears they will materialise
within his body and pierce him from within...and if I remember the reason he mentions correctly...it's because his magic circuit's can't store any more blueprints...I'm not saying he doesn't store them in UBW but that he also can store them in his magic circuits.In fact before learning about UBW he stored all his blueprints in his MC's (or atleast that's what I understood).

As for the other points----(I'll answer when I know these -> )what's the throne and what's the Akashan record.I don't recall thrones or the word "Akash (an)" from the VN. (Are these mentioned in the anime or ataraxia?)
RinTohsaka
Totally hardly posted
 
Posts: 14
Joined: May 14th, 2009, 11:28 am

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » August 9th, 2009, 6:30 pm

There is no penalty for making mistakes here, I make mistakes sometimes too. As long as your intention is educated debating and not trolling, everyone can only be happier.
RinTohsaka wrote:Hmm...perhaps I didn't understand this bit correctly...but at a point in the fight with Gilgamesh ,before realising UBW ,Shirou actually stops reading the weapons because he fears they will materialise
within his body and pierce him from within...and if I remember the reason he mentions correctly...it's because his magic circuit's can't store any more blueprints...I'm not saying he doesn't store them in UBW but that he also can store them in his magic circuits.In fact before learning about UBW he stored all his blueprints in his MC's (or atleast that's what I understood).

UBW has always been present in Shirou. Remember his ability to comprehend the structure of the heater just by touching it? Remember his ability project kettles that persist for a long time without being crushed by the World? These are all by-products of UBW. As for the definition of UBW and where the blueprints are stored, here is what everyone around here takes to be the official statement.
Fuyuki wrote:Unlimited Blade Works
無限の剣製 - Mugen no kensei

Shirou and Archer's Reality Marble.
Treated like a Noble Phantasm, but to be accurate, it's thaumaturgy (Reality Marble) that's free from penalties. In this Reality Marble, the substances needed to form all swords are present. Just by looking at the original, it is possible to replicate it. However, the replicated weapon is lowered by one rank. Defensive armaments are possible but the normal projection cost is two to three times the regular amount of Prana used in making swords. A weapon replicated once is recorded in the barrier and can be made without activating the Reality Marble using tracing thaumaturgy. Against a normal opponent, it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome, but it's the ultimate counter against a certain king of heroes.

The statement Shirou made in UBW is most likely referring to the fact that projecting rapidly in succession to match Gilgamesh is overwhelming his circuits, and pushing his circuits any further (or pushing the UBW within him any further) will cause rebounds that can harm himself.

As for the other points----(I'll answer when I know these -> )what's the throne and what's the Akashan record.I don't recall thrones or the word "Akash (an)" from the VN. (Are these mentioned in the anime or ataraxia?)

The Throne is the "Throne of Heroes", this is where all heroic spirits are stored. Servants are copies of the heroes in the Throne, with a few exceptions (Sabre and Kojiro etc). Akasha is the root of everything that all magi in the world seeks. It contains the knowledge/record of everything and is independent of space, time, and variations in parallel universes. The Throne of Heroes is said to be part of Akasha.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby Oolinthu » August 10th, 2009, 3:27 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:As for the definition of UBW and where the blueprints are stored, here is what everyone around here takes to be the official statement.
Fuyuki wrote:Unlimited Blade Works
無限の剣製 - Mugen no kensei

Shirou and Archer's Reality Marble.
Treated like a Noble Phantasm, but to be accurate, it's thaumaturgy (Reality Marble) that's free from penalties. In this Reality Marble, the substances needed to form all swords are present. Just by looking at the original, it is possible to replicate it. However, the replicated weapon is lowered by one rank. Defensive armaments are possible but the normal projection cost is two to three times the regular amount of Prana used in making swords. A weapon replicated once is recorded in the barrier and can be made without activating the Reality Marble using tracing thaumaturgy. Against a normal opponent, it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome, but it's the ultimate counter against a certain king of heroes.


I've never understood this. Logically, it just doesn't jive, unless I'm missing something obvious.

1. Shirou/Archer's Unlimited Blade Works is the perfect counter to Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon.

2. Unlimited Blade Works would only be "somewhat troublesome" against Servants besides Gilgamesh.

3. Gate of Babylon is obviously more than "somewhat troublesome" against other Servants. It's defeated Berserker and presumably Lancer, wtfpwned Caster, and is more than a match for Saber.

...Does not compute. The only theory I've been able to come up with is thus:
Perhaps while UBW is superior to GoB for a short period of time, enough to close with Gilgamesh and overpower him in melee, GoB is more sustainable, allowing Gil to maintain a constant hailstorm of Noble Phantasms that would eventually overwhelm another Servant, whereas that same Servant could just endure UBW, wait till the reality marble implodes, and then close with Shirou.

Nothing like this is ever said or implied in the VN to my knowledge. Even granting this theory, it doesn't address the question of why Shirou in Unlimited Blade Works, who is fully human and lacks a GARm, is able to overpower Gilgamesh, a Servant, in melee to begin with.
User avatar
Oolinthu
Addict
 
Posts: 76
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 2:17 pm

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby shirou12 » August 10th, 2009, 8:39 am

it is because GILGAMESH IS ALSO A KING OF CARELESSNESS. He likes to play first at his opponent and underestimate him before finishing him, and that's where shirou gets a chance to strike back. but if gilgamesh is serious on that fight, i would assume shirou is already dead after a minute of the start of their match. gilgamesh's carelessness merely allows shirou to give chance to cast the damn thing, but if he is in serious mode, shirou wouldn't stand a chance.

for me, i am still troubled about the UBW be somwhat troublesome on normal servants. manage to kill berserker inside the UBW can be still consider "tropublesome" for servants? i think it has a power to also defeat servants, it is like a GoB but difference is you are inside and be shooted from above.
User avatar
shirou12
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 231
Joined: January 26th, 2008, 8:36 am
Location: Philippines

Re: Rho Aias (Spoilers)

Unread postby RinTohsaka » August 10th, 2009, 1:29 pm

Heh.I guess this is the first thing I should have asked around here-----The Fuyuki wiki:Who wrote it? How " official " is it? Is Nasu involved ?

Please bear with my incessant questioning . :)
RinTohsaka
Totally hardly posted
 
Posts: 14
Joined: May 14th, 2009, 11:28 am

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest