Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

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Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Tsunami » June 15th, 2009, 3:05 pm

After completing the game I got the idea that Archer is the Shirou from the previous route.
Did anyone else see it this way?
The first Archer, in the Fate route, was the same Shirou as the one he met when he was summoned.
The second Archer, in the Unlimited Blade Works route, was actually the Shirou from Fate route that ended up the way he did. After that, the Shirou that was warned in Unlimited Blade Works, did not drop his ideals and took the exact same path that his former self did. It may had been a different path but the goal was the same. I have no doubt that he would agree to become a heroic-spirit in order to protect the world after his death.
In Heaven's Feel route, there is a scene where Archer covers Tohsaka (where Shirou loses his hands) and gets fatally injured. In that scene Archer plays with Rin's hair in an intimate way (not exactly sure what happened there but it was hinted that he felt intimate towards her). Furthermore, Shirou had a dream of him having sex with Tohsaka in his classroom and that would fit Archer's memories, if he is the Archer from Unlimited Blade Works. The only Shirou that didn't end up as Archer and met his happy ending is the one in Heaven's Feel who threw his ideals away for the one he loved.
That is about it.

How did you see it?
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kcuf » June 15th, 2009, 3:55 pm

Interesting theory. I personally think that Archer in all 3 routes are the same one and not from different routes.
Now on to your theory:

1. In UBW Archer said he couldn't "save" Saber. That's what Shirou did in Fate.
2. The Tohsaka sex scene in HF is Rider's doing, because she needed mana. I think she took the form of Tohsaka, because that's who Shirou secretly lusted for in that point.
It would also be akward if he dreamed to have sex wih someone he thought had died.
3. If it really was Archer's memory of "good times" with Tohsaka, then the scene in Realta Nua would have been him kissing her, instead of hot lesbian action with Mitsuzuri.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby AlinSabel » June 15th, 2009, 9:45 pm

...I totally wish I'd bookmarked all my sources, but at least Fuyuki Wiki claims that "The chances of the Shirou appearing in Fate/stay night becoming EMIYA are very low or not possible at all."

I thought I recalled reading somewhere that Fate route = 10%, UBW = 5% and HF = 0%, or at least something like that. :/
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 16th, 2009, 3:45 am

Well, in UBW Archer dropped a lot of hints that suggested he was from none of the three routes. Archer seemed to admit again and again that Shirou's sorcery skills were superior to his when he was the same age. Ironically, it was probably the presence of Archer himself that accelerated Shirou's growth. Because experience and information flowed steadily from Archer to Shirou, Shirou was able to gain the knowledge of most, if not all of Archer's weapons. Furthermore, Shirou also acquired Archer's fighting style, although still at a rudimentary stage. Let's also not forget the finale where he materialized UBW. Whether this accelerated growth will steer Shirou away from Archer's fate or hasten the progress toward the inevitable, I am not sure, but one thing is for certain, he will not become the Archer we know.

I do agree that Shirou from Fate should have a probability greater than 10% to develop into Archer or closely resemble him. He emerged from the Fate route more idealistic than ever, but still lacking in skills. Compare to UBW Shirou, Fate Shirou is a much lesser fighter and does not possess the knowledge of the tragic future that his ideal may potentially lead to. The path of Fate Shirou will probably not deviate significantly from Archer's, given what we know from the story.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » June 16th, 2009, 3:09 pm

So in other words if he didn't become GARcher in Fate, UBW and HF then that would mean there was a 4th story to all of this and it would probably be the Illya route. Either that or the so called Mituzuri route. I mean it might be a storyline that could of taken place but was cut out do to certain issues at hand then. At least that's my theory in all of this.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 16th, 2009, 3:23 pm

Kcuf wrote:1. In UBW Archer said he couldn't "save" Saber. That's what Shirou did in Fate.


I think he said that this wouldn't be the time (UBW) she would be saved, 'cause he was going to kill Shirou and therefore the Fate route talk with Saber wouldn't happen

Kid-Wolf wrote:So in other words if he didn't become GARcher in Fate, UBW and HF then that would mean there was a 4th story to all of this and it would probably be the Illya route. Either that or the so called Mituzuri route. I mean it might be a storyline that could of taken place but was cut out do to certain issues at hand then. At least that's my theory in all of this.


It's possible. But maybe they intended to Archer be different from all the "Shirou"s of all routes, and make him like a tottaly different character even if they are the same person
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Uberoy » June 16th, 2009, 3:45 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:So in other words if he didn't become GARcher in Fate, UBW and HF then that would mean there was a 4th story to all of this and it would probably be the Illya route. Either that or the so called Mituzuri route. I mean it might be a storyline that could of taken place but was cut out do to certain issues at hand then. At least that's my theory in all of this.


I think its pretty hard to become the same person as your future self if you meet him so a route without Rin summoning Archer would be his best shot.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kcuf » June 16th, 2009, 5:02 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:
Kcuf wrote:1. In UBW Archer said he couldn't "save" Saber. That's what Shirou did in Fate.


I think he said that this wouldn't be the time (UBW) she would be saved, 'cause he was going to kill Shirou and therefore the Fate route talk with Saber wouldn't happen

Ah, you might be right.
I will give UBW a read again just to be sure.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Dark_Habit » June 16th, 2009, 6:34 pm

The minute you meet your future self, your future itself changes, because such a thing is not supposed to happen.To correct that mistake you would definitely have to turn into something slightly different so that you do not end exactly up as your 'future self'.Plus Shirou always hated his Heroic spirit, but this is what I think.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » June 17th, 2009, 12:23 am

Dark_Habit wrote:The minute you meet your future self, your future itself changes, because such a thing is not supposed to happen.To correct that mistake you would definitely have to turn into something slightly different so that you do not end exactly up as your 'future self'.

that or (off topic):

"I foresee two possibilities. One, coming face to face with himself 30 years older would put him into shock and he'd simply pass out. Or two, the encounter could create a time paradox, the results of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space time continuum, and destroy the entire universe!
....... Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy."
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 17th, 2009, 2:50 am

Dark_Habit wrote:The minute you meet your future self, your future itself changes, because such a thing is not supposed to happen.To correct that mistake you would definitely have to turn into something slightly different so that you do not end exactly up as your 'future self'.Plus Shirou always hated his Heroic spirit, but this is what I think.

Note that Nasu has placed a safeguard against such possible paradoxes. Heroic Spirits and Counter Guardians can potentially be summoned into any era, therefore the possibility of causing paradox is high. For example, the job of a counter guardian is to cleanse anything Alaya perceives as a risk to mankind, which may include your past or future self (or killing a version of yourself while exterminating a threat). The safety lock here is that once you are employed by Alaya or inducted into the Throne of Heroes, you are "fixed", "frozen", in other words impervious to any temporal alteration. Basically, even if Archer erased all versions of Shirou in different parallel universes, he will STILL remain. I think at one point he even admitted that his wish of freeing himself from the bondage of counter guardian and relinquish his ideal was completely futile. Killing Shirou will accomplish nothing, he is just doing it to console his wounded spirit. Interestingly, he did mention there is a slim possibility that he can cause a paradox so significant that the World will just erase all versions of Shirou from existence including the counter guardian version, but I HIGHLY doubt this will EVER happen (evidence is Tsukihime spoiler).
As Ciel has demonstrated, the World goes to absurd length to amend paradoxes, instead of erasing the individual from existence. This includes granting them what is essentially immortality


p.s. Don't waste effort placing spoiler tags, the OP already tagged the thread.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 17th, 2009, 1:59 pm

Here are more notes about Archer past
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 17th, 2009, 9:38 pm

It is also slightly likely that the Archer from HF is the HF Dead End Shirou(the one who killed Sakura). He did give him that lecture on his crimes judging him, which doesn't resemble any previous Archer. Only explanation I can see is that he faced a similar choice, possibly the same(hence my theory) and simply chose the "protect teh ideal" choice.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby AvatarofRage » June 17th, 2009, 10:55 pm

Well if Archer is closest to Shirou in Fate, then its worth mentioning that, in Fate, Zouken is never dealt with, nor is the True Grail. It's entirley possible the 'threat' Archer needed power to deal with was a fully corrupted Sakura in the next grail war.

Being forced to effectivley sell his soul for power to kill a childhood friend is certainly grounds for his 'start of darkness' so to speak, especially if Rin and/or Taiga were killed.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 17th, 2009, 11:24 pm

No, I'm pretty sure it was to save a hundred or so persons that would otherwise die.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » June 17th, 2009, 11:28 pm

Wiat I thought it was the part where
he lets Rin kill of Sakura at the Church and then he becomes an Hero.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 18th, 2009, 2:15 am

AvatarofRage wrote:Well if Archer is closest to Shirou in Fate, then its worth mentioning that, in Fate, Zouken is never dealt with, nor is the True Grail. It's entirley possible the 'threat' Archer needed power to deal with was a fully corrupted Sakura in the next grail war.

Being forced to effectivley sell his soul for power to kill a childhood friend is certainly grounds for his 'start of darkness' so to speak, especially if Rin and/or Taiga were killed.


That would not have happened. It was stated that at the end of Fate Waver Velvet destroyed the Greater Grail. In the other two routes, the completed grail was either destroyed by Sabre, Ilya, or Shirou. Nasu closed the thread of the Grail War in Fuyuki pretty well.

Like Mazyrian said, Archer made the pact with the World to change the destiny of a few hundred people... exact details unknown, but he did die by the hands of some of the people he saved, pretty ironic.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » June 18th, 2009, 11:10 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Wiat I thought it was the part where
he lets Rin kill of Sakura at the Church and then he becomes an Hero.

wouldnt really count IMO
(spoiler tagged thread so ill ignore it)
Rin had full control over Shirou (you answer that you will do anything she asks while doing the "truce" and she casts something to bind to her orders (flag called "geass" in the flowchart))... so is not as he "let her" kill Sakura, but that he couldnt stop her.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » June 18th, 2009, 11:21 pm

Well there was the other part if he didn't get control of the Geass with Rin. In that Dead End (which is pretty much the same Tiger Dojo) he says that he'll become an Hero and try to save as many people as possilbe, making it where he sticks ot GARcher's way of thinking.
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Re: Fate/Stay Night Theory | (Spoilers)

Unread postby AlinSabel » June 18th, 2009, 11:24 pm

Nope, two different situations.

The one Kid-Wolf is talking about is when he goes on his late night walk and bumps into Ilya, and decides either to save Sakura or become a hero.
Your one is if you chose to save Sakura but previously allowed Rin to control you, meaning you couldn't save her (you'd be back at the Church).

Both choices are on Day 9.

Day 9

2. He didn't want to kill me?
2. I can't do this myself. I need Tohsaka's help. (1. ...No, this is my problem. = Bad End 28)
1. Yes
1. Yes
1. No way! (2. ...I guess it can't be helped. = eventually Bad End 31)
1. No, I can't leave Sakura by herself.
1. Pull Tohsaka's hand. (2. Close my eyes and attack Rider = Bad End 29)
2. I want to protect Sakura. (1. ...Persist on being a superhero. = Bad End 30)

Your one is Bad End 31, Kid-Wolf's is Bad End 30.
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