Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby metal_cocoabo » May 11th, 2009, 2:41 pm

Projection-wise, I assume Archer's and Fate Shiro's Caliburns are about the same. Since he basically downloads all the skills necessary to use it, Archer should be able to pull off the same stunt one rank lower... so I guess, six lives? :lol: This one is mostly speculation anyway, but maybe the Saber factor has something to do with it. Well, at least I get why they say Saber's the strongest Servant, she gets 'Block-Anything' Avalon, 'Beam-Spam' Excalibur and 'Kill-Anything-SEVEN times' Caliburn (at least with Shiro's help.)
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » May 11th, 2009, 6:22 pm

metal_cocoabo wrote:Projection-wise, I assume Archer's and Fate Shiro's Caliburns are about the same. Since he basically downloads all the skills necessary to use it, Archer should be able to pull off the same stunt one rank lower... so I guess, six lives? :lol: This one is mostly speculation anyway, but maybe the Saber factor has something to do with it. Well, at least I get why they say Saber's the strongest Servant, she gets 'Block-Anything' Avalon, 'Beam-Spam' Excalibur and 'Kill-Anything-SEVEN times' Caliburn (at least with Shiro's help.)


The reason Archer does not use Caliburn or Excalibur is that it simply takes too much energy to use.

fuyuki wiki wrote:Creation of Excalibur is possible, but not a perfect version of it. It's also likely that using its energy blast would result in him using up all of his Prana, hence it would be a suicide attack for him, which is why he never traces it even just as a normal weapon; his personally developed close-combat technique with his twin swords is better suited for him and Shirou (although raw power might be less).


In UBW,
I think the only reason Archer would threaten copying Excalibur is that he has to bet it on all or nothing. He has no master, so has a very limited supply of energy, and he is up against a full power Saber + Rin. There is no way he could have escaped from that situation without the threat of a suicide attack.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 12th, 2009, 12:31 am

nanaya_shinya wrote:
metal_cocoabo wrote: Archer should have a copy of Caliburn somewhere in UBW since he was Saber's master as preGAR-Shiro. Why didn't he just use it if it was that powerful!


Because he is just an owner.
He won't be able to do the 1 stab = 7 lives like he did with Saber.

Well, it's the only theory that I could think of.
He can, actually. There's no mentioning about Caliburn being usable only by a king, in contrast to popular belief. In game manual only said that its difference with Excalibur is that it trades power with fancy designs.

As for the overkill part, I simply think that he has regenerated 2 of the lost lives (since it's been said that God Hand can regenerate lost lives over time). Simple explanation to cover the plothole. And people, he lost 14 lives (6 from Archer, 1 Rin, 7 Caliburn), not 13. Anime people can't even count. :lol:
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Soulshade » May 12th, 2009, 5:03 am

i just think that archer didnt use caliburn himself is cause he cant use it at all cause caliburn only reacts to the king of britain. even though archer can 'download' the skill needed to use caliburn, caliburn itself prolly has 'norton' to block off archer's hax. remember when shirou tried to use it himself but fails, so saber had to help out in order for caliburn to work.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 12th, 2009, 5:07 am

Soulshade wrote:i just think that archer didnt use caliburn himself is cause he cant use it at all cause caliburn only reacts to the king of britain. even though archer can 'download' the skill needed to use caliburn, caliburn itself prolly has 'norton' to block off archer's hax. remember when shirou tried to use it himself but fails, so saber had to help out in order for caliburn to work.
Wrong. It fails because his image was crumbling. :P

Saber merely supports his hands because he doesn't have enough strength to wield it. I don't know where people get the assumption "Caliburn - king only" whereas the status screen and wiki explanation says otherwise. :P
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Soulshade » May 12th, 2009, 6:06 am

u sure about that? i remember shirou saying sumthing in the anime and game about being unable to use it not because he didnt have enough strength to support the sword, i mean if he didnt, how did he slice off berserkers arm that was holding rin?
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 12th, 2009, 11:01 am

After he traced Caliburn the second time:

Emiya Shirou wrote:"But this is it. I'm tossed away. As soon as my consciousness returns, the sword must have left everything in my hands. I am easily thrown away by the attacks I was easily blocking until now. 'Ha-ah'. The senses in my arm are already gone. My wrist is about to tip off as I can see the red meat.

'--Kuh...!' My legs won't move. All my muscles must have stopped working."
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Headron » May 16th, 2009, 9:31 am

To explain beserker being killed 13 times. It was not overkill. Berserkers Noble Phantasm was his Stock of twelve lives. what no one realizes is that this stock is added on top of his base 1 life. so with Archer killing him 5 times, (once before UBW than 4 within UBW, as Ilya states he killed berserker 5 time total) then Rin with her magic stones, and finally the Caliburn stab for his final 7 lives (6 stock, one base).
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 16th, 2009, 9:43 am

Headron wrote:To explain beserker being killed 13 times. It was not overkill. Berserkers Noble Phantasm was his Stock of twelve lives. what no one realizes is that this stock is added on top of his base 1 life. so with Archer killing him 5 times, (once before UBW than 4 within UBW, as Ilya states he killed berserker 5 time total) then Rin with her magic stones, and finally the Caliburn stab for his final 7 lives (6 stock, one base).
Yet another common misconception. :3
TM WIKI wrote:
God Hand
Japanese name: ゴッド・ハンド
Title: Twelve labors
Japanese title: 十二の試練
Owner: Berserker
Type: Support
Rank: B
Maximum number of targets: 1 person


God Hand is the blessing (curse?) of the gods that grants immortality. It is Berserker's main Noble Phantasm.

By turning the body into a robust armor, any attack not exceeding rank B is totally negated. In fighting game terms, you could say it is a super armor that takes no damage from any attack other than a super combo. God Hand can even learn about a move that has succeeded once and grow a resistance to it.

In addition, it grants automatic resurrection, up to 11 resurrections - meaning Berserker needs to be killed 12 times to be eliminated.

Apparently, God Hand also might be what gave Berserker his lead-colored skin and transformed his elbows.


FUYUKIWIKI wrote:
God Hand - The Twelve Trials
The normal ability is canceling any damage of B or below. Noble Phantasm ability is an extra 11 lives (yes 11 lives, not 12, meaning he has to be killed a total of twelve times). It's effectively an armor coating the body. The reason why Berserker looks grey is because of the God Hand. A blessing or rather a curse the gods gave to Hercules (hence, it isn't the materialized interpretation of his trials, it's an actual gift bestowed by the gods). Ever since Hercules gained this, no one has been able to do any damage to him. Confirmed that God Hand will actually develop resistance to damage taken once. The game hints that the lives actually regenerate. Seriously. Also see Conceptual Armament entry on God Hand.
Rank: B
Type: Anti-personnel
Max AOE: 1 unit


That's why I think there's only one explanation to the overkill: God Hand actually regenerated 2 lives before he was stabbed with Caliburn.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kenzu » May 16th, 2009, 7:15 pm

Yep. Berserker's God Hand regenerates. Either that or it's a miscount. No other explanations.
Anyway, about how Berserker got killed in the anime - each of his more powerful attacks killed him once. He killed him off in UBW twice.
So this is proper:
1: calabolg II arrow form = 1
2: the combined first pair and second pair of KnB exploding onto Berserker = 1
3: Crane Wing Overedge = 1
4: UBW = 2

Before he cast UBW, he did say something like "Why don't go easy on me? During that, I'll take down two more!"
Also it was mentioned that Archer gave Berserker 6 fatal wounds, but it's up to everyone to think how the battle went. I don't think UBW was used.

Comparing FSN Anime and FSN Visual Novel in terms of "what happened really" is meaningless. Just look at it:
1. Assassin easily BLOCKS Saber's strikes that should slice through his sword and him - in the game he parries them in a way that his sword gets almost no impact
2. Caster's barrier - what the hell? Blocking every attack that doesn't require more maryoku? Now I say that's a bit overpowered. Basically Saber, Archer, Lancer, and Rider wouldn't be able to penetrate it with their attacks. Maybe Berserker would be able to, but who cares. Sure, it could be penetrated and all but there was nothing like that in the game
3. Gilgamesh is overpowered - I mean, come on, he matches Saber in swordsmanship and even beats her in strength, also he once materialises swords to block her attacks... I mean he doesn't even need his armor

I think that's enough with that.

As for the 7 Times Kill. I see it that Shirou wasn't able to fully use the Caliburn's power as he wasn't the true wielder - just the owner. Saber as the true wielder could unleash it's power to break Berserker's weapon and pierce him. Also she had greater physical strength than Shirou - meaning the usage of maryoku. Also I took it that Berserker was blown up from inside by Caliburn's power and not merely received a stab wound. Well that's the way I see it at least. It could also be that with that stab all the God Hand layers were pierced and he died because of that.

Shirou did trace Caliburn and it was a rank down but it was traced from the true Caliburn that had a rank f.e. A++ or even A+. That would still enable him to get an A rank sword that could injure Berserker and it was higher than poorly contracted Saber's Excalibur.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby DarkEyes » May 16th, 2009, 9:47 pm

sigh
ppl shouldnt make anime out of vns.. it wont ever be better than the vn... and vn adapting animes usually suck (my opinion f/sn anime sux =p)


and no, god hand does not regenerate, its overkill thats all there is to it.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 17th, 2009, 4:05 am

Just a minor correction:

Kenzu wrote:As for the 7 Times Kill. I see it that Shirou wasn't able to fully use the Caliburn's power as he wasn't the true wielder - just the owner. Saber as the true wielder could unleash it's power to break Berserker's weapon and pierce him. Also she had greater physical strength than Shirou - meaning the usage of maryoku. Also I took it that Berserker was blown up from inside by Caliburn's power and not merely received a stab wound. Well that's the way I see it at least. It could also be that with that stab all the God Hand layers were pierced and he died because of that.


Shirou can actually use Caliburn, if only he has more Prana and strength. Heck, he could even use Excalibur and Gae Bolg if he wants to. "King only" point is nulled by the description given in the status screen.

Also, what really happened when Berserker was stabbed was not God Hand being destroyed over and over (overblown, lol), but rather, its effect is completely negated / beaten. The remaining lives and regeneration didn't function at all. That's because stronger mystery / concept beats weaker mystery / concept. Caliburn's concept is far stronger than God Hand's.

Probably the same way Avalon would completely negate Fragarach and Gae Bolg's effects (shuts all interference, etc).
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 5:07 am

Caladborg was blocked due to the "swords block everything, even nukes" rule of anime. No kill there

Kansho and Bakuya aren't strong enough (C rank does not equal B rank.).No kills

Process of elimination says all kills were made in UBW
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 17th, 2009, 5:26 am

Xanathos wrote:Kansho and Bakuya aren't strong enough (C rank does not equal B rank.).No kills
It's the overblown-wing-form K&B. Not your normal K&B. The rank should be about A; they are like Broken Phantasm. And it was direct hit.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby shirou12 » May 17th, 2009, 5:32 am

Archer didn't last long using the UBW against berserker thats why i think he can only manage to kill berserker two times inside, caladborg may have a kill effect on berserker, who knows if that thing killed berserker assuming that berserker blocked the damn attack.

and anime based VSNs promotes the VSN game also, thats how other people like me get to find FSN.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kenzu » May 17th, 2009, 8:45 am

I agree with shirou12 about promotion. I am really glad that the Anime was made. Getting interested in it resulted in me getting the VSN game.
I also agree about 2 lives taken in UBW.

As I said before, the Anime isn't really about ranks. Caladbolg could have killed Berserker once, or the Crane Wing Overedge could have killed him twice. In the Anime I count "one attack = one kill". Also you can only speculate what happened and stick with your own version. The truth remains a mystery as only the aftermath was shown in the game.
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Re: Archers Kills on Berserker in anime (Spoilers i think)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 17th, 2009, 12:06 pm

Well in any case it actually showed the GARcher vs. Berserker fight. Pretty much the Kaldabolg II was normally a 1-hit KO for adverage Servants, but Berserker isn't an Adverage Servant at all so it probably just pahsed him since he actually had to block for once. Also, it just showed how broken that Servant is afterall. In any case if he was given enoguh time I think the God Hand would of regenrerated him back to full health. It's kind of like think of him being in Arcade Mode wher ehis stats go back to normal once he takes a break between matches. Although since this is more along the line of Survival Mode he probably recovered just enough lives to try and take on Shirou, Rin, & Saber.
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