Zelretch (Spoilers)

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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 9th, 2009, 12:10 am

@AlinSabel: I appreciate the furth clairifiacation for my postings I appreciate that.

@Catasrophie: Was there a reason why those screenshots were off center? Aside from that you've confirmed the reason why Shirou can't master the Second Sorcery at all by mentioning the mind meld with Illya.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » May 9th, 2009, 1:36 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:@Catasrophie: Was there a reason why those screenshots were off center?


?????
weirdquestion is weird....... i was playing with the window placed there, is that strange at all?? o.0?
also, i still have my doubts on your view of Rin's/Gem Sword capabilities, i might take a look on it later...
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 9th, 2009, 2:15 am

Ok let me clairify it again. Why was the text cutoff from the game in those sceenshots. That's what I was trying to get at.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » May 9th, 2009, 2:36 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:Ok let me clairify it again. Why was the text cutoff from the game in those sceenshots. That's what I was trying to get at.



hhhm, i see, for a reason the page didnt fully load for you..... images will get cut off like that, otherwise, they will resize to use a fixed width , they show fine for me(in this case, my full desktop), anyone else having said problem?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Inverted » May 9th, 2009, 6:56 am

This a very iffy subject . Shirou does say that its made with alien technology . So what applies to Ea ,applies to this too.
But he created a (weaker) imitation of it after touching it in the dream.So I would say, what he needs to create it perfectly is more time to anlayse it while holding it in his hands. That way he can slowly grasp the knowledge bit by bit and create a perfect copy . However there was no free time and they had to settle for a hack job. Eg: how he created a perfect copy of Avalon with it being embedded in him for 10 years.

However creating or using jeweled sword is not equivalent to True Magic . Not even close. Its a pale watered down version in the first place.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby sevalle » May 9th, 2009, 7:13 am

hmm.... so all Shirou managed to project was a piece of crystal capable of conducting the 2nd sorcery?

The analogy of the violin maker and violin player is pretty convincing (the violin maker need not necessarily know how to play it), I stand corrected then :o





guess I over-rated Shirou's tracing abilities, how did i get the misconception that can trace = can use >.<
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby AlinSabel » May 9th, 2009, 11:13 am

sevalle wrote:guess I over-rated Shirou's tracing abilities, how did i get the misconception that can trace = can use >.<


He's like that with normal swords... or at least it's implied he can copy the techniques embedded in the weapon, a la nine bullet revolver.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby -Shiki- » May 10th, 2009, 5:01 am

Well, during tracing shirou will also trace the user experience and SKILLS..I dont think 2nd sorcery is a skill..Besides..His mana capacity is so low, its pointless even if he uses it to face sakura..LOL
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby abscess » May 10th, 2009, 6:23 am

OMG piracy! lulz
Anyway, bad jokes aside, Mr. Cat is right. It's like making a gun, I think. Normally the gunsmith just knows the technical part of how to make the gun, the barrel being longer than rifles, whether the firing mechanism has to be lever-action, single or double-action, etc, etc. Shirou could be called a gun-smith. The real theory of how the gun works, how it should be fire to take into account the coriollis effect, etc. is where Rin (IIRC) comes in.

However creating or using jeweled sword is not equivalent to True Magic . Not even close. Its a pale watered down version in the first place.
Which brings me to ask, yet again, how is it that Rin is acknowledged to have mastered the 2nd sorcery if it is just a "watered down version" of the real thing? Okay, Rin knows the theory and helped to create the sword, but she helped to create a "not perfect" copy of the sword, am I wrong? If I'm not, I still don't grasp the why is it that Rin is given the credit for mastering such a thing.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 10th, 2009, 7:11 am

It's because she says that now she can make a perfect copy if she acquires the money needed to do it. She says that after seeing ththe blueprint and using it in a battle she fully understood the conception of the gen-sword ( But I don't know if that means she understood the second sorcery completely or only the application of the second sorcery by the gem-sword. Either way, it means she mastered at the second sorcery. My doubt is if she masteres it in a direct or an indirect way...)
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Inverted » May 11th, 2009, 6:36 am

absces wrote:Which brings me to ask, yet again, how is it that Rin is acknowledged to have mastered the 2nd sorcery if it is just a "watered down version" of the real thing? Okay, Rin knows the theory and helped to create the sword, but she helped to create a "not perfect" copy of the sword, am I wrong? If I'm not, I still don't grasp the why is it that Rin is given the credit for mastering such a thing.

? Where is Rin acknowledged to have mastered True Magic .? You mean when she says that she knows the blueprint and theory behind the Jewel Sword and with time and money can copy it.

You know, its only an application of a fragment of True Magic using a tool . The real 2nd Magic allows you to hop dimensions. So, as I say , its just a watered down version. Maybe she will figure out 2nd magic eventually but it will take a loooooooong time .
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby abscess » May 11th, 2009, 7:36 am

IIRC, she is given that recognition. And what you've said is my point exactly.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Tessara » May 11th, 2009, 10:10 pm

Well, I don't know how well you have to perform a Sorcery to be considered to 'Master' it. All the sorceries are things that are considered impossible by normal magics, so even managing a little bit of a success is probably something extraordinary. Perhaps I have the definition wrong, but I always thought that the Second Sorcery was just the ability to move something from one dimension to another. Rin got that extra mana from another dimension, so that's a success. Maybe in time she could move other things through the dimensions, but even now she can do something that's beyond normal magic.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 5:28 am

sevalle wrote:6 steps of tracing:
1. Identify idea behind creation
2. Define basic structure
3. Duplicate constructing material
4. Imitate production techniques

5. Share growing experiences
6. Reenact accumulated years


If Shirou could imitate the cross-dimensional abilities of the original zelretch, how could you not deem him to have already mastered the 2nd sorcery?


According to this, step one was skipped. This doesn't make much sense. When something is created by UBW, he should read the memories of the item produced. This is why he was able to defeat black saber with kansho and bakuya, black berserker with nlbw, overcome gil in swordsmanship and destroy normal beserker with caliburn. Saying "it's not a sword" doesn't make sense either because Emiya is only able to produce swords.

Interesting indeed.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 17th, 2009, 12:10 pm

Pretty much to Shirou he probablly deemed it as something that looks sword like, but doesn't have the basics of being a sword. It's kind of like how he can't trace Ea no matter how hard he looks at it. Basically it's like he'll need some kind of mind meld abilty with Gil to understand how Ea works. Although it's highly unlikely Gil. would let anyone try and copy Ea let alone do anything of the sort with a bunch of Mongrels.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby ReidE96 » May 19th, 2009, 7:37 pm

Xanathos wrote:When something is created by UBW, he should read the memories of the item produced. This is why he was able to defeat black saber with kansho and bakuya

He had the GArm, so had access to GArcher's memories, hence could use GArcher's skills.

Xanathos wrote:black berserker with nlbw

Uhh.... pass. Maybe GArm again?

Xanathos wrote:overcome gil in swordsmanship

He didn't, ubw is just better than GoB because the weapons are already there. Because he could get Kanshou and Bakuya before Gilgamesh got Ea, he was able to swing first. Then the void thing came.

Xanathos wrote:and destroy normal beserker with caliburn

Saber did the killing. All Shirou did was make the sword, which he said himself was crumbling.

Xanathos wrote:Saying "it's not a sword" doesn't make sense either because Emiya is only able to produce swords.

Heroic Spirit Emiya AKA GArcher could produce shields too, at "3 times the mana cost". Plus, I don't think a black bow counts as a sword. If you mean Shirou.... well, he produced all the random crap in the shed Rin went and looked at, but they were just "shells" as they put it, with nothing inside.

Not trying to pick a fight here, btw. Just trying to come up with reasons (I'm bored).
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Xanathos » May 23rd, 2009, 1:46 am

I was refering to his skill when he was fighting berserker in the forest . And with gil, I was specifically referring to the battle on the bridge in the fate route.

shirou wrote:Parrying is all I can do. No I wouldn't have been able to block the first attack by myself. It's fortunate that I reproduced it's memory when I recreated the sword. A sword with long past holds will and experience. This sword must be familiar with such attacks. So the sword reacts before I do. I merely move my arms to follow the sword.


I apologize for my faulty memory in that I portrayed Shirou as winning that bout.

As for the GARm, it did not have any information on Berserker's weapon. He downloaded it from the blade. The comment of "Emiya can only produce swords" is more along the lines of a personal philosophy, his way of life.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 1st, 2009, 6:59 pm

Actually, the axe-club that Berserker had was not a weapon that Heracles used in his life. I think that the reason he could reproduce Nine Lives was that, Servant or not, Heracles in his incarnation as Berserker did hold it, which means that it somehow connected with him and allowed Shirou to reproduce NL.

...Or it could just be that NL was an NP and Shirou simply "read" it from Berserker and reproduced it. Though I think that even Shirou's NLBW was a watered-down version of the real thing.

About the "can produce only swords" thing, I think that it is simply more comfortable for him to produce them, which ups the accuracy of the image:projection ratio.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Mazyrian » June 2nd, 2009, 12:05 am

SolarAdept wrote:About the "can produce only swords" thing, I think that it is simply more comfortable for him to produce them, which ups the accuracy of the image:projection ratio.


Something like this happens; he can project Rho Aius, but it costs him the triple it would.
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