Zelretch (Spoilers)

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Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby solopy567 » May 6th, 2009, 1:03 am

I heard somewhere that Zelretch appears in the Heaven's Feel scenario, but when exactly? I played it again but i didn't see any mention of him.

At what scene exactly does he show up?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby abscess » May 6th, 2009, 1:08 am

IIRC, it's during the ending. He doesn't have a real appearance per se (with sprite and stuff, I mean), but it's when Tohsaka went to the Magic Association.... I think.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 6th, 2009, 3:28 am

He is only mentioned when you manage to pull of the HF True end. Besides it kind of goes back to Rin's prespective at the end which was kind of supprising since they did the same technique for the prologue with her of course.

Aside form that during the cut scene with the fight betwen Rin and Dark Sakura they expalined the Jeweled Sword which basically sums up who and what Zelretch is known for. Not only that but he's pretty much known as the guy that can actually connect Tsukihime with Fate if he felt like it since he did meet Arc when she was a child at one point. So aside form the Aozaki sisters he pretty much is the main guy that kind of completes the Nasuverse in an odd way.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby bioniclearchiver » May 6th, 2009, 6:53 am

The True Ending I saw didn't look like this one you're speaking about...
I just saw an Ending in which Shirou isn't there, and another one where Shirou comes back.
I've never seen Rin going to the Magic Association at the end of Heavens Feel.
Do I need to unlock something special, even thought I've unlocked the Final Tiger Dojo and seen the two different Endings?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Uberoy » May 6th, 2009, 7:42 am

bioniclearchiver wrote:The True Ending I saw didn't look like this one you're speaking about...
I just saw an Ending in which Shirou isn't there, and another one where Shirou comes back.
I've never seen Rin going to the Magic Association at the end of Heavens Feel.
Do I need to unlock something special, even thought I've unlocked the Final Tiger Dojo and seen the two different Endings?


Well, you dont actually see her going to Magic Association but it says so in the text.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Soulshade » May 6th, 2009, 7:43 am

bioniclearchiver wrote:The True Ending I saw didn't look like this one you're speaking about...
I just saw an Ending in which Shirou isn't there, and another one where Shirou comes back.
I've never seen Rin going to the Magic Association at the end of Heavens Feel.
Do I need to unlock something special, even thought I've unlocked the Final Tiger Dojo and seen the two different Endings?


nah it was in the true ending of HF. Rin went to the Magic association in london right after the grail war i think, during that time there was some sort of fuss over the war in what happened to it and such, i dont really remember exactly but part of that fuss caused rin to end up being arrested. during the trialing one of the jury or audiences was Zelretch. thats where he showed up apparently and acknowledging the tohsaka family for accomplishing something over a short amount of generations. correct if im wrong, this is based on a few months rememberance
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 6th, 2009, 11:16 am

That was basically it. When Rin was undergoing the traill over the actions that took place in the HF storyline since not only did she master the Second Sorcery that Zelretch is known for, but managed to understand that the grail was fairly tainted with an evil power. The others were shocked that they were trying to summon up something that powerful while Zelretch decided to step in and mention that she just mastered the Second Sorcery, and that he was going to take up two three new appretices. When he said that Rin was let off the hook and came back to Japan.

There are no CGs or anything about that, but more like a summation of Rin's perspective of what happened while she was in London.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 6th, 2009, 2:54 pm

In a matter of fact, she doesn't tell then that her land's grail was corrupted. They were just completely mad because she opened the gate (which was thought impossible) but closed it soon after. Then Zelretch appears in the middle of the trial and says: "The carelessness of my apprentice is my responsability." Then says "I shall take two more apprentices" and at last he says something about how he was expecting the least of Tohsakas, but they managed to reproduce the gem-sword after only six generations.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby sevalle » May 8th, 2009, 2:41 am

Somehow I think that Zelretch was mistaken...

Rin didn't reproduce the gem sword, it was Shirou, all Rin did was to use its abilities to fight Sakura.

Furthermore, Shirou didn't need any of Rin's blueprint of the gem sword, all he did was trace what he saw in Ilya's memories

So if anybody "mastered" the 2nd Sorcery, it should be Shirou.... or am I wrong?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » May 8th, 2009, 2:47 am

sevalle wrote:Somehow I think that Zelretch was mistaken...

Rin didn't reproduce the gem sword, it was Shirou, all Rin did was to use its abilities to fight Sakura.

Furthermore, Shirou didn't need any of Rin's blueprint of the gem sword, all he did was trace what he saw in Ilya's memories

So if anybody "mastered" the 2nd Sorcery, it should be Shirou.... or am I wrong?

Rin said during that epilogue that she managed to understand its composition while using it, but that she still lacks the enough funds to create it.
also. you contradict yourself, see the "bolded" text.

now that i mention it.... can anyone clarify me wtf is the relationship of a savings account here?? never managed to understand D:
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby sevalle » May 8th, 2009, 3:38 am

6 steps of tracing:
1. Identify idea behind creation
2. Define basic structure
3. Duplicate constructing material
4. Imitate production techniques

5. Share growing experiences
6. Reenact accumulated years


If Shirou could imitate the cross-dimensional abilities of the original zelretch, how could you not deem him to have already mastered the 2nd sorcery?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 8th, 2009, 5:36 am

The reason why Shirou isn't the Master of the Second Sorcery is because he didn't use the Jeweled Sword at all. All he did was create the artefact nothing more. Rin was the one who managed to understand and use it properly. Although if Rin had the money and time to do so she would of done it on her own beforehand.

Also, since Shirou traces things the weapon he produced may be almost an exact copy of what it should be but it'll never be exactly like the original. I mean you have to look at Archer's UBW. his Noble Phantasms are one rank lower then what they orignally were, so the same goes for Shirou in this case.

Not only that, but he managed to become living proof of the Third Sorcery.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby sevalle » May 8th, 2009, 7:56 am

but theoretically Shirou could use zelretch if he wanted to, right?

its not as if he traces something but yet has no idea what it does/how to use it.

if i were to put it in my own words:
shirou gives rin a sword with a built-in ability to connect with other dimensons
rin already knows that the sword can connect with other dimensions, and thus is able to use that ability to draw infinite supply of prana when fighting sakura
shirou also knows that the sword can connect with other dimensions, but since he already gave the sword to rin, he couldn't use it himself


Kid-Wolf wrote:Also, since Shirou traces things the weapon he produced may be almost an exact copy of what it should be but it'll never be exactly like the original. I mean you have to look at Archer's UBW. his Noble Phantasms are one rank lower then what they orignally were, so the same goes for Shirou in this case.


The issue here is not whether the gem sword produced is a flawless copy of the original or not. The important thing is that its ability to cross dimensions was replicated by Shirou.



Pardon my persistence, but somehow I feel that I have a valid case to prove >.<
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 8th, 2009, 3:17 pm

That's because of Shirou's mana supply. Also, he understood the components that were needed to make the sword through Illya's mind meld trick, but I don't think he knew about the mlutidimentional abilty the jeweled sword had. He only needed to know how to create it, and I think that's what the two have said to him if he was to make it. Also, Shirou isn't exactly a Jeweled user, he's a sword user. Besides Rin is more capable with it since her mana levels are much higher then Shirou's. The reason is she could actually match Sakura since they both have the exact same mana levels. The only difference is Sakura can only release a certain level at a time for each attack she deals. While Rin is the same but managed to change the sword from another dimention and uses it again and again.

In any case I don't think Shirou had a reason to use this wepon in the first place though.

Also, it's good of you to have some kind of valid point, since I do like having an inteigent discussion on these boards from time to time.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » May 8th, 2009, 6:21 pm

sevalle wrote:Pardon my persistence, but somehow I feel that I have a valid case to prove >.<

lol j/k

anyway, trying to add to wolf's point:

Shirou didnt know that he succeeded in that tracing until Rin said so, he even said (iirc) that it "wouldnt be able to cut paper" or something like that, he just doesnt seem able to put a finger on the sword's power, let alone use it.

now trying to contradict a point in wolf's post:

im pretty sure Rin simply cant match Sakura in terms of mana capacity and thats why she needed the sword to fight, is related to the mana in the midst (odo, was it?) being used by the gem sword, and it opening the dimension rifts to use said mana from parallel universes.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby sevalle » May 8th, 2009, 6:42 pm

In my opionion it is impossible for Shirou not to know about zelretch's abilities. As stated in steps 1 and 4 of tracing, it is a pre-requisite for Shirou to know what are the properties/abilities of the object to be traced, followed by the knowledge of how to replicate those abilities. If Shirou did not know of zelretch's multidimensional ability as you say, then all he should have been able to project would be, in his own words, "an empty shell that looks identical on the outside but is empty on the inside."

The fact that Shirou projected an object with the 2nd sorcery imbued in it should mean that Shirou himself understood what the 2nd sorcery is and how to use it. Is that not mastery of the 2nd sorcery?
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Tessara » May 8th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Throwing my two cents in, I'm guessing that the difference between what Shirou did and what Rin did was like the difference between making a violin and being able to play one. Both are very difficult to do correctly and well, and if you can do one you probably know a little about the other, but they're still completely different processes. Shirou figured out how to make the crystal so that it could be used for the Second Sorcery, but that doesn't mean he could do it himself. Rin can then use the crystal to actually perform the Second Sorcery, and it sounds like in the process of doing so or shortly thereafter she learned enough about it to be able to create her own jeweled sword later on, cash permitting.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » May 8th, 2009, 10:46 pm

Catastrophe wrote:now trying to contradict a point in wolf's post:

im pretty sure Rin simply cant match Sakura in terms of mana capacity and thats why she needed the sword to fight, is related to the mana in the midst (odo, was it?) being used by the gem sword, and it opening the dimension rifts to use said mana from parallel universes.


Well in the cut scene between the Rin and Sakura Battle they both can unleash a 1000 mana at a time. The thing is that's Rin's full limit, but using the sword she can keep on using the same ammount. As for Sakura us pretty much has an unlimited ammount of mana thanks to the tainted powers of the grail. Although Rin has an infinite ammount of the jeweled sword since there are an infinite ammount paralell universes. That's what I was trying to get at in my posting before though. So I thought I should clairify that myself.

@sevale: As for what you said about Shirou creating the jeweled sword he had to learn the understanding of the blade but he never saw the original. So even though he created an artefact that uses the Second Sorcery doesn't mean he is a master of it. Also, I think he would of lost that ability since he became the living proof of the Third Sorcery. In any case Rin was reconized as a Master of the Second Sorcery because of showing the Jeweled Sword during her trial. As for Sakura she's basically the power of the grail that she has kept in check as of late.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby AlinSabel » May 8th, 2009, 11:14 pm

Ah... just to clarify, as the above post may still not be able to clear up the distinction...

Both Rin and Sakura release the same amount, for differing reasons.
Rin only has that amount available to her at that exact moment (it is implied she can release more, but her source doesn't have more).
Sakura has infinite amount available to her at any moment, but she only has enough circuits to release that amount at that moment.
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Re: Zelretch (Spoilers)

Unread postby Catastrophe » May 8th, 2009, 11:20 pm

sevalle wrote:In my opionion it is impossible for Shirou not to know about zelretch's abilities.


i hope 4 screenshots will be enough (please ignore the fact im dl'ing Hayate no gotoku :P )

when Shirou is still inside Ilya's memory:


after projection:


he DIDNT grasp even the slightest theory behind the sword, he just copied what he saw.

with this good sir, you must admit defeat.
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