magic vs. technology

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magic vs. technology

Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 27th, 2009, 3:18 am

I'm reading Fate/Zero right now and I am kinda confused on why magus hate technology. In fact, I never really understood why magic and technology are always conflicting each other in other stories. Technology is never really in the way of magic so I never understood the hatred. Technology can even help the magus achieve great things. The sorcery in the current era is probably never going to match the sorcery from the age of the Gods, so a magus can probably use a combination of magic and technology to create something on par with old magic. Sometimes, it seems like authors are creating this friction between magic and technology for the sake of creating friction between two things.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 27th, 2009, 3:51 am

^What he said. I speculate it's because of "Harry Potter" thingie, a world in which sorcery and technology can never coexist (at least, in a sense). Hence why the Association is an organization kept secret from the "Muggles".

But applications of magecraft on technologies has been there; Kiritsugu himself imbued his modern weaponry with his own magecraft.
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Unread postby Vhailor » March 27th, 2009, 10:16 am

Well, as you said, it seems stupid to ignore the technologie but i think the main factor is Magi see themselves as some kind of elite. With it comes pride and so, they prefer to rely on their own means before using the common technologie.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » March 27th, 2009, 3:07 pm

look at it this way. Imagine if you are nobility. Even if the commoner's have very good and efficient ways to do stuff, you would most likely stick to your wastefully flamboyant methods simply because you wish to be different, to stand out from the murk. and because you can afford it.

If you have magic in your veins, and are brought up thinking that you are superior to those who are not, you would not want to be associated with a non-magic person. You want to be recognized, even if its just amongst your society. So the majority would shirk from technology, at least this is how one explanation goes
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 27th, 2009, 5:59 pm

So in the end, it is not a matter of conflicting ideologies, it is just that magi are extremely arrogant. Hm. That makes more sense, but at the same time it is a stupid reason to overlook a potential tool just for the sake of pride. But then again, I was born as a normal "commoner" so I won't have the same ideologies as others.

I am also a little confused with science vs. religion or religion versus magic. The two things don't really contradict each other, other than the fact that science requires evidence and religion requires faith and that magic usually comes from the powers of pagan gods. I also wonder why can't they just get along. It is not like science is here to disprove god and science is based on the physical laws that GOD created. The magic vs. religion (mainly Christianity) I kinda understand, but in the nasuverse, magi's ideologies aren't really doing anything that is really sacrilegious nor is it trying to convince Christians to be non believers. I don't really understand why the magic association and the Holy church can't see eye to eye. What makes it more confusing is that the Tohsaka even contradict the whole feud by being
"secret Christians"
. That makes it interesting but I don't understand how
the church can accept magi into their organization.
The categories contradict each other a little bit or not at all. It once again, seems like that authors are trying to create conflicting ideologies for the sake of creating friction.
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Unread postby that one guy » March 27th, 2009, 6:27 pm

That aspect is to show that everyone is two faced. That, in the end, it doesn't matter if you are a part of the Church or the Association. For the right price, you can be part of both.
See Tohsaka/Kotomine for examples.
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Unread postby nobaka » March 27th, 2009, 7:32 pm

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-Some author I can't remember


Besides, magi don't hate technology. Alchemists are considered magi, but rely completely on technology (as I understand it).
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Unread postby rastilin » March 27th, 2009, 8:27 pm

Besides, magi don't hate technology. Alchemists are considered magi, but rely completely on technology (as I understand it).


Yes but they rely on magical technology. Not Science as such. It really does boil down to arrogance, I mean in Fate/Zero you see Lord El Melloi
decry his opponent's use of physical explosives because they're "undignified". The Einzeberns complained like anything to even getting Emiya Kiritsugu to install an electrical generator into the castle.
It's exactly as BlackTornado says.
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Unread postby that one guy » March 27th, 2009, 8:43 pm

nobaka wrote:Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-Some author I can't remember


Besides, magi don't hate technology. Alchemists are considered magi, but rely completely on technology (as I understand it).


Aren't the Alchemists hated by the Association?
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 27th, 2009, 11:27 pm

that one guy wrote:That aspect is to show that everyone is two faced. That, in the end, it doesn't matter if you are a part of the Church or the Association. For the right price, you can be part of both.
See Tohsaka/Kotomine for examples.
It's not that everyone is two faced; most simply chose not to because they think magic is heresy. Probably much the same reason why there was "witch hunting" at the end of the medieval era (in our world); magic is a power borrowed from the demons.
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Unread postby nobaka » March 28th, 2009, 12:14 am

that one guy wrote:
nobaka wrote:Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-Some author I can't remember


Besides, magi don't hate technology. Alchemists are considered magi, but rely completely on technology (as I understand it).


Aren't the Alchemists hated by the Association?


Honestly, iunno. I don't think the Association HATES them, but they're certainly not fans. I think the Association has issues with the Alchemists' policy on sharing knowledge, more than anything else.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 28th, 2009, 12:36 am

nobaka wrote:Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-Some author I can't remember


Besides, magi don't hate technology. Alchemists are considered magi, but rely completely on technology (as I understand it).

Arthur C. Clarke is the name you were looking for.

I think it is a matter of philosophy, because you can't argue it is due to prosecution. The Church is suppose to be the prosecutor of sacrilege, but the Church in Nasuverse is treading a thin line themselves.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » March 28th, 2009, 3:47 am

Church vs association.

I believe its a power struggle. The leaders of both wants to attain as much power as possible, and that means its better if the other does not have as much power as one does. They do not disrespect each other as they do the commoners as they both have mythical powers. But they cannot see eye to eye as they want to be the superior one.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 28th, 2009, 11:23 pm

The Church allowed blasphemous beings such as Ciel to exist and be incorporated into their ranks, I think that says a lot about the weakness of their faith and their quest for power. I don't think blasphemous is an incorrect term, since Ciel was the host of a DAA, and is functionally immortal.
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Unread postby wyldfire » March 29th, 2009, 1:41 am

well there is a magic association and a holy association...maybe we should make a science association too, to make up for ignoring science....it's agents will use gundams and transformer like machines and stuff... :lol:
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Unread postby Xamdou » March 29th, 2009, 1:50 am

wyldfire wrote:it's agents will use gundams and transformer like machines and stuff... :lol:


lol , they always have a huge fund 8)
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Unread postby Kuuya/Fabre » March 29th, 2009, 9:28 am

Technology also kinda conflicts with some kind of "code of honor" thing that some people regard highly. I mean, what can a mage do when in the beginning of a fight someone shoots him or her with a gun while incanting a spell.

Tactically, however, it's not wrong. Personally, taking down someone when they least expect it is an aspect of war since ancient times. All is fair in love and war and stuff... >.>
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Unread postby BlackTornado » March 29th, 2009, 12:13 pm

I kinda agree. During a sword duel, it would not be honorable if u suddenly throw a dagger at the opponent then follow up with a fist full of sand into the eyes... and such...
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Unread postby ILPPendant » March 29th, 2009, 1:11 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
The Church allowed blasphemous beings such as Ciel to exist and be incorporated into their ranks, I think that says a lot about the weakness of their faith and their quest for power. I don't think blasphemous is an incorrect term, since Ciel was the host of a DAA, and is functionally immortal.

I heard it said somewhere that the Burial Agency is not particularly popular in the Church; it's usually regarded as a necessary evil. If vampires ever disappeared I don't doubt the Church would turn on the Agency in a heartbeat. The Nasu-verse never seems particularly short of 40k-esque zeal.
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Unread postby nobaka » March 29th, 2009, 7:14 pm

BlackTornado wrote:I kinda agree. During a sword duel, it would not be honorable if u suddenly throw a dagger at the opponent then follow up with a fist full of sand into the eyes... and such...


lulz, if it's a spar, then sure. If it's a deathmatch, honor is meaningless. Honor < Dead.
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