magic vs. technology

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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 5th, 2009, 2:48 am

Chaos Chaud wrote:FSN Caster is a heroic spirit. Heroic spirits are in a level far superior too a normal human being so I think that doesn't really count (Compare Archer and his past self)... Also, you could say that in the past people lived in the age of gods, gods walked between people and directly interfered at destiny and gave them powers or people have to confront god-powered things. Don't forget that a lot of heroes in the past used to be half-god, half-demon, half-something-not-human. And if technology was the reason to magic's decrease, why there is a decrease in the number and quality of people that uses swords, bow, archers or even guns? They don't have anything to do with this magic vs science thing...
You should at least read the Status Screen on the game before you make a claim...

@kikuchi

Is it possible for you to tell me fuyuki's source dor this article? I'd like to see it myself

http://web.archive.org/web/200705110313 ... agic#Magic
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 5th, 2009, 11:10 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Chaos Chaud wrote:They don't have anything to do with this magic vs science thing...
You should at least read the Status Screen on the game before you make a claim...


I was talking about the heroes that do not use magic when I said this (Archers, Sabers, etc.). Sorry, if I have not expressed myself correctly...

Edit: Sorry, but I haven't found Fuyuki's source for their definition of magic anywhere in the page...
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby TheRedArcher » June 5th, 2009, 11:46 am

Chaos Chaud wrote:
SolarAdept wrote:It's shown in every work of his. FSN Caster is the best example of this - she is from 2000 or so years in the past and her strength as a magus is on a completely different level from modern magi. I also read in some wiki that in the past, most magecraft was considered to be Magic - only to get kicked down into magecraft by science's advancement.


FSN Caster is a heroic spirit. Heroic spirits are in a level far superior too a normal human being so I think that doesn't really count (Compare Archer and his past self)... Also, you could say that in the past people lived in the age of gods, gods walked between people and directly interfered at destiny and gave them powers or people have to confront god-powered things. Don't forget that a lot of heroes in the past used to be half-god, half-demon, half-something-not-human. And if technology was the reason to magic's decrease, why there is a decrease in the number and quality of people that uses swords, bow, archers or even guns? They don't have anything to do with this magic vs science thing...

@kikuchij

Is it possible for you to tell me fuyuki's source dor this article? I'd like to see it myself


Heroic spirit or not, the strength of Caster's magecraft is much stronger than current magecraft because of her knowledge of her time period's magic. It is because her magic is from the long ago and humans of today can't understand divine language. Even if the power of magic is decreased into magecraft in this time period, her power should be relatively the same as it was when she was alive since her magic is still as much of a mystery to the current timeline as it was a mystery to her timeline (since I doubt many people knew how to speak God's language, even in her time). But I believe that if Caster was summoned 1000 years in the future, her magic would actually be weaker than it is today because technology could have uncovered that particular mystery surrounding the language of Gods. But then again, this is all assuming that Caster's power levels change according to which timeline she is in, so my words can be a bucket of hogwash.

Your question is kinda confusing. Are you saying that swords and bows and such are forms of technology and the diminishing number of such weapons is an example of technology not being used? Are you asking why is there a decrease in the number of people who use primitive weapons or why is there a decrease in the usage of primitive weapons?
Either way, if you see swords, bows and other weapons as forms of technology, it would make sense that the usage of technological weapons would increase if technology is getting better. It would be natural that the majority of the world's population would stop using outdated weapons when they have a much better alternative, especially if the world's population is more inclined towards technology.

I like to think of magic and technology of the Nasuverse like this. The "mystery" of the world is conserved. Just like how energy is conserved. Magic and technology are byproducts of sentient beings, taking advantage of the "mystery" of the world. Without sentient beings, there is no magic or technology, since mystery relies on the perspective of the living things. When there is more mystery in nature and the world, the magic is stronger due to the nature of magic relying on mystery for strength and power. The less mystery there is, the stronger technology gets because of the humans who discover how to manipulate the uncovered mystery. However, that does not necessarily mean magic itself will get weaker if technology advances. It only depends on the certain mystery that a particular kind of magic was attached to. With the mystery dwindling, the comprehension grows; thus, resulting in humans understanding how to manipulate that topic, and this particular method of manipulation is called technology.

For example, if there was a magic that took advantage of gravity, the magic would be very powerful; especially if only a few people know of it. It does not necessarily mean that the magic users know how gravity works, they just know how to manipulate it through magic. However, with the advancement in critical thinking and understanding of the world around them, people were starting to understand the mystery that was gravity. They understood that it was the attraction of two objects that causes gravity and not because God dictates that everything goes down because it is the way it is. So the mystery is diminished since the definition of mystery is something that is not understood. The knowledge of the inner workings of gravity caused that particular magic to get weaker, but people did not initially know everything there is to know about gravity in an instant. So the people gradually understood more and more about gravity, causing it to get weaker and weaker. However, that does not mean that the other magics will get weaker, for the mystery surrounding other magic is still not understood. So people are able to make things that take advantage of gravity (airplanes, guillotines, flying DeLoreans and hoverboards or anything of the sort). And that form of manipulation is technology.

So to conclude, Magic and Technology are forms of manipulation on the amount of mystery there is in the world. And since mystery is something that is relative to sentient beings, magic and technology cannot exist without sentient beings.

Although, most of this is just stuff I'm trying to piece together so don't take it too seriously.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 5th, 2009, 12:31 pm

@TheRedArcher

About my question, I was trying to say that the number of people who are as powerful as fighters of the age of gods (great sabers, lancers, powerful fighters in general) are decreasing as well. That MUST have an explanation( and since they don't use magic, magic vs science don't apply to them). I suggest that , probably, the same explanation for the decrease of powerlevel of fighters can be applied to the decrease of powerlevel of magi (without this whole magic vs technology thing)

About your theory, I didn't really undersand it... In my opinion, your theory and your example for it are contradictory...
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 5th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:I was talking about the heroes that do not use magic when I said this (Archers, Sabers, etc.). Sorry, if I have not expressed myself correctly...
You cannot compare the fact that there is no adequate sword / axe / bow / lance users nowadays to the existence of Heroes like Heracles and Cu Chulainn; they're demigods. Heroes that are as strong as a normal human will be only that strong, whether he is from the past or present. (e.g. Avenger)

However, a Magus from Age of The Gods is definitely stronger than modern day Magus. In game sources and wikis have confirmed this, so many times that I am not even going to bother to look for the quotes. :P

Edit: Sorry, but I haven't found Fuyuki's source for their definition of magic anywhere in the page...
The link works fine for me. I dunno what caused your problem, but the loading time is indeed a bit longer. Just be patient.

In case you have indeed entered that page and still cannot find that quote I wrote, just look at the first lines written on there. There's no need to scroll up and down; I have directly pointed it out for your convenience. :3

@TheRedArcher: one simple link to clarify the speculations surrounding your theory:

http://web.archive.org/web/200705110313 ... haumaturgy
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 5th, 2009, 7:29 pm

"Furthermore, thaumaturgy is descended from magic and hence draws on a predetermined power from the Akasha. Because the amount of power available for that is fixed, the more people who draw on it, the weaker it becomes. The more people who use it, the less supernatural or mysterious it becomes."

From Fuyuki wiki.

Which means that magecraft that is not mysterious or supernatural is weak. Science does exactly that - it simplifies and explains the mystery, which weakens it.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 6th, 2009, 12:44 am

SolarAdept wrote:Which means that magecraft that is not mysterious or supernatural is weak. Science does exactly that - it simplifies and explains the mystery, which weakens it.
Exactly. Which is why I said if technology gets more advanced and more "mysteries" could be scientifically explained, Magic would grow weaker and weaker.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Pink » June 6th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Kikuchi wrote:
SolarAdept wrote:Which means that magecraft that is not mysterious or supernatural is weak. Science does exactly that - it simplifies and explains the mystery, which weakens it.
Exactly. Which is why I said if technology gets more advanced and more "mysteries" could be scientifically explained, Magic would grow weaker and weaker.


But I wonder. Does it simply need to be explained in scientific terms, or accepted by the people as the reason?

The first person who predicted tectonic plate movement was ridiculed and his theory discarded until WWII. His theory was correct, but the people never accepted it.

So if someone made a hogwash theory about existence, and was able to get all of the major heads of science to believe it, would the mystery of existence disappear because a lot of people believed it to be defined in a certain way, regardless of whether it was true or not?
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 6th, 2009, 5:53 pm

I think that it needs to be true, or at least close to the truth, and widely accepted.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » June 8th, 2009, 6:41 am

Well, science or magic, it is the results that speak. For example, if someone came up with a theory regarding the existence of the human soul, ultimately he needs to materialize a soul through scientific means. If he fails to do that (i.e. the theory is bogus), the Third is not compromised.

In the end, both scientists and magi seek the Truth. Scientists undertake this endeavour through experimentation, magi, well... do so by trying to reach Akasha. There is no set way for you to reach Akasha though, as different magi have their own theories. Some good examples are Nero, Aoko, Alaya Souren, the Einzberns etc (pretty much any magi introduced in the Nasuverse attempted to approach Akasha through one form or another). The gist here is that, everyone knows there is only one Truth, so you do not need to worry that false theories messing up the governing laws of sorcery.

Regarding the strength of ancient heroes and magi, the explanation given by Nasu was quite simple: the human race deteriorates throughout the ages. Ancient sorcery was strong due to the close ties between humans and divine beings in the past. Because of the potency of the sorcery, legendary ancient warriors developed strong resistance to any form of supernatural attacks. Sabre used this as the explanation for the presence of magic resistance in the three Knight Classes (Lancer, Sabre, Archer). Also, note that even NORMAL humans in the ancient time are stronger than humans today. Avenger is indeed stronger than an average human. In fact, he has no problem killing humans. It is just that the masters present in the Holy Grail War are not your average humans (Reality Marble, Norse runic magic, rank A jewel bombs, and even true Noble Phantasms).
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 8th, 2009, 7:42 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Also, note that even NORMAL humans in the ancient time are stronger than humans today. Avenger is indeed stronger than an average human. In fact, he has no problem killing humans. It is just that the masters present in the Holy Grail War are not your average humans (Reality Marble, Norse runic magic, rank A jewel bombs, and even true Noble Phantasms).
Human being is stronger in average in the past than in present? Hell no. Why it seems that more "ancient" hero is stronger than "recent" hero is because, well, the known "ancient" heroes, like Berserker, Saber, Lancer, and Gil are NOT human. Draconic being, demigods, monsters, etc, etc...

You can't make a claim just from the evidence based on known heroes. If you want to account on humanity as a whole, try finding an example where an average villager in the past is always stronger than the present's townsfolk / villager.

Also, note that the fact Avenger can kill any human is because he is the incarnation of Evil. Not because he is stronger than your average joe. He is just a normal boy from the beginning, after all.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 8th, 2009, 8:21 pm

Actually, if Touko's theory is correct, ancient humans ARE better/different than normal ones. Read more about her in a wiki for explanation on my post.

Sorcery and Magic are different things. Pretty much every type of sorcery(magecraft) can be done with technological means, and the more complicated magecraft is merely too hard for the current technological level of humankind, and might be possible to do within a century or so. Magic, on the other hand, is stated to be miracles, which means that it is completely impossible to explain or imitate with scientific means(at least now). The moment Magic will be within the domain of science, it will stop being miracles and will no longer be True Magic.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby aldw » June 9th, 2009, 3:08 am

The thing that should be pointed out is that magic and technology both converge because they are both manipulators of existance, if they were truly unconnected then there would be no plane or point of interaction between either system on a reality (no dimension hopping, time travel, FTL, etc). That is why ultimately considering Nasuverse conventions they tie together whether at the level of Akasha or something else.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Altima of the Gates » June 22nd, 2009, 5:32 pm

Kikuchi wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Also, note that even NORMAL humans in the ancient time are stronger than humans today. Avenger is indeed stronger than an average human. In fact, he has no problem killing humans. It is just that the masters present in the Holy Grail War are not your average humans (Reality Marble, Norse runic magic, rank A jewel bombs, and even true Noble Phantasms).
Human being is stronger in average in the past than in present? Hell no. Why it seems that more "ancient" hero is stronger than "recent" hero is because, well, the known "ancient" heroes, like Berserker, Saber, Lancer, and Gil are NOT human. Draconic being, demigods, monsters, etc, etc...

You can't make a claim just from the evidence based on known heroes. If you want to account on humanity as a whole, try finding an example where an average villager in the past is always stronger than the present's townsfolk / villager.

Also, note that the fact Avenger can kill any human is because he is the incarnation of Evil. Not because he is stronger than your average joe. He is just a normal boy from the beginning, after all.


Well you could say that humans we're stronger in a sense, what with phantasmal beasts, demons, gods (and their fickleness when interacting with mortals) running around, people didn't have to be stronger, they needed to be. The proof of descendants/hybrids with strong bloodlines proves that in a sense. So in a way, humanity was more...how to put it...tougher from rougher living? I'll use that. Makes me wonder what made them abandon that though...hard to just suddenly say thousands of years of history never happened.

But I agree with your other points, faith is one of the strongest elements in the Nasuverse, but there is one thing I have to comment on. Technology may unravel the mysteries of the 'results' that magic provides, but magic is the most stable system overall. Machinery made by human hands, however stable it may seem, needs to be maintained, even if by self-repair functions. Even if someday all the 'Miracles' brought about by True Magic are unraveled by science (except the Third, I still say there is no way science can hope to totally replicate that - to take the dead and revive them memories and all or create a human clone with all the meories is impossible, because memeories are acquired, not 'factory-installed.'

Plus I heard it said earlier in the thread that we see this trend of ostracizing technology against magic in supernatural stories. However, there have been so many examples in popular media that have technology and divinity share the same origin. Its played upon in RPG's so much its scary(divine machinery, sacred technology, even going back to Final Fantasy VI with the Magitek Armors), aldw brought up Toaru Majutsu no Index, and there have been plenty of animes with ideas like that...Chrno Crusade, and pretty much any series with 'nuns with guns' or 'exorcists' nowadays, lol. :p
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 22nd, 2009, 7:45 pm

Nasuverse isn't those animes, and that's it. Don't compare Nasu's... unique, so to say, ideas with others'. Each universe(or in this case, multiverse) is different. Don't you know the Our Magic Is Different trope? Dangit, I wish the guy who started this added a {spoilers} marking in the title.

Also magecraft is not stable at all. It gains power from the number of those who believe in it, and is based on that alone. Kinda like with spells - the shorter it is, the easier it is to use it. Machinery is a lot more stable, since it doesn't randomly do things depending on the area for example - everything has a reason with machinery. Magecraft, however, is heavily affected by the region it is used in - the reason that curses and the such are much more popular in the Far East is that it's theory was engraved there better than in the rest of the world.

Also, I support the idea that the humans of the past were better simply because they were closer to the original human.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Altima of the Gates » June 23rd, 2009, 4:24 am

SolarAdept wrote:Nasuverse isn't those animes, and that's it. Don't compare Nasu's... unique, so to say, ideas with others'. Each universe(or in this case, multiverse) is different. Don't you know the Our Magic Is Different trope? Dangit, I wish the guy who started this added a {spoilers} marking in the title.

Also magecraft is not stable at all. It gains power from the number of those who believe in it, and is based on that alone. Kinda like with spells - the shorter it is, the easier it is to use it. Machinery is a lot more stable, since it doesn't randomly do things depending on the area for example - everything has a reason with machinery. Magecraft, however, is heavily affected by the region it is used in - the reason that curses and the such are much more popular in the Far East is that it's theory was engraved there better than in the rest of the world.

Also, I support the idea that the humans of the past were better simply because they were closer to the original human.


Lol, I was just addressing a point made earlier in the thread that magic used hand in hand with technology was rare.
Anyway,

And where the heck did you get the idea that belief effected thaumaturgy? That has more to do with Servants and their Noble Phantasms, ether-liner, elementals, and demons, those, you can say have much steeped in the power of belief, but thaumaturgy doesn't. Thaumaturgy is all about concepts and bringing about a result using the established rules/laws of the system of the world. In that way thaumaturgy is about as stable as machinery. If you cut the cord of the plug of a device, it won't function, just like if you block a leylines power, you don't get access to the energy source. Just like if a cell phone is used in a dead zone its functions are reduced, the environment can play a part in how machinery works. So I take it back that magic more stable because it is just as susceptible to outside interference, to which I know say that they are of equal stability.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm

The efficiency of a system depends on how disseminated it is (i.e. the more people believe and/or use it)

Wikia TM wiki.

Belief=power. Nothing more to say.

"to which I know say"... would you mind using proper english. Otherwise I cannot understand what you say and cannot reply to it. From my understanding it's "now" you meant to say: Machinery is still more stable. Okay, outside interference is supposedly equal, but there is also the matter of resistance - most magi have a degree of resistance to certain types of sorcery, while no human has resistance to a bullet(just ask Kiritsugu). And kevlar jackets are NOT in the equation, since they are not the natural defenses of a human body.
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