magic vs. technology

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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 9th, 2009, 11:44 pm

Yes, it's like: in a distant future, let's say that exists a portable machine that allows teleport and a magic that allows teleport exists too. Therefore, if you see someone teleporting at a park, you won't know if the person used magic or this device...

He really could have said it without the jargon though :P
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
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"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby solopy567 » May 10th, 2009, 3:04 am

The two worlds would have a reversed view on what is magic and what is technology. People from a magic world will think that what machines do is magic, while they view what they do themselves as science/technology, and vice versa for ours.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby abscess » May 10th, 2009, 3:24 am

solopy567 wrote:The two worlds would have a reversed view on what is magic and what is technology. People from a magic world will think that what machines do is magic, while they view what they do themselves as science/technology, and vice versa for ours.

Let me quote the third law from "Arthur C. Clarke's three laws of prediction":
3# Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 10th, 2009, 3:38 am

Uhh, sorry, but canyou explain me where quoting the third law apply to solopy's statement...
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Soulshade » May 10th, 2009, 4:20 am

i think he means that any advanced technology and magic get, they'll become less and less incomparable to each other but i mean say if u give each section time to research for better solutions to their fields wouldnt they be able to do unimaginable things such as for magic, going through time without having to worry about causing a paradox or in technology, being able to go from universes to universes? so really i reckon both just balance out
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 10th, 2009, 6:17 am

No, that wasn't I was talking about...
I was asking more like : what in solopy's phrase was against the third law... I have already understood it, though...
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby TheRedArcher » May 10th, 2009, 9:29 am

But in the end, what we are talking about right now is perspective. The perspective of people who live in different time lines; therefore, the people have different experiences and expectations. However, that does not change what things are. Technology is technology, magic is magic. No matter how much I think a wax fruit looks (or possibly tastes) like an apple, it is not an apple.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby aldw » May 10th, 2009, 8:36 pm

TheRedArcher wrote:But in the end, what we are talking about right now is perspective. The perspective of people who live in different time lines; therefore, the people have different experiences and expectations. However, that does not change what things are. Technology is technology, magic is magic. No matter how much I think a wax fruit looks (or possibly tastes) like an apple, it is not an apple.


Not quite the right analogy, the closer one is that at a certain point the apple can be transmuted into wax and vice versa (e.g., molecular control), at which the distinction becomes immaterial; this is because methodology converges the higher the ability and power gets.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 12th, 2009, 12:36 am

Just a little summary of the ongoing discussion: since Magic and Technology developments work in reversal to each other (with Technology advancement diminishing Magic), there will be no point of using Magecraft in the future. Those Magi wouldn't stand a chance at all against a cybernetically enhanced supersoldier. :lol:

Since the Church isn't half skeptical as the Association regarding technology, they might as well have a Burial Agency comprised of nanosuit-wearing agents. :lol:
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Pink » May 14th, 2009, 3:55 am

TheRedArcher wrote:That makes much more sense. Now it is easier to see where the arrogance and the hatred for technology comes from. But there is one thing I would like to comment on.

serialies wrote:3. true magic can accomplish miracles, time travel, dimension travel, manifestation of the soul, all of these things science cannot accomplish.
if you think of a magi as someone ambitious, it makes sense for them to follow the life that leads them to the greatest rewards.
science can be grapsed more easily, and by more people, but it's peak is below that of magic.


It's true to say that magic can produce fantastic results, but I think it is still too early to say that science can never reach magic's potential. As you said before, magic is the manipulation of the mysteries of life while science is the unraveling of mysteries. So science continues to progress as time goes on. It is hard to say what science can and cannot do when science has not reached its peak yet. For all we know, someone might discover how to time travel, revive the dead or whatever in the future. While it seems impossible now, it is because it is still "mysterious" and that mystery has been not yet been discovered.


If that was so, there'd only be a few mages who would kill anyone who learned about magic, just to maintain their power...

solopy567 wrote:I think technology and magic are more or less on the same level. Lets say you have a world with technology (e.g. ours) and a world with magic, and you put them at the same timescale (Say they are both at the year 2008).
I'd say that both of them are equally advanced.


I'd say that Magic has better healing capacity, but Technology has better Utillity and Destructive capacities (A fully load Czar bomb has an explosive power of about 100 Megatons). Magic that can wipe out whole towns is hard to do, but with technology it is child's play... I wonder what the magical effects of such a powerful Nuke would be...

solopy567 wrote:The two worlds would have a reversed view on what is magic and what is technology. People from a magic world will think that what machines do is magic, while they view what they do themselves as science/technology, and vice versa for ours.


Or they might just start explaining the phenomenon of the other. Science might come up with a complex equation and theorum explaining how a person can shoot fire from there fingers, and Magic would come up with a like-wise complex magical formula explaining what makes a nuclear bomb work.

TheRedArcher wrote:But in the end, what we are talking about right now is perspective. The perspective of people who live in different time lines; therefore, the people have different experiences and expectations. However, that does not change what things are. Technology is technology, magic is magic. No matter how much I think a wax fruit looks (or possibly tastes) like an apple, it is not an apple.


But it is still carbon based, and follows the same laws of physics. Therefore the Wax Fruit and the Apple can be explained in the same theorem.

Humans are really dangerous, and it is unfortunate that the gods/nature/Everthing-not-human didn't kill them out right when they had the chance. First man conquered fire. He then he became more powerful and made inventions like the Wheel. He conquered nature and put it under its reins. He conquered the sea. He conquered metal and forced it into shapes. He uncovered the mysteries of chemical reactions and made gun powder. He conquered the Atom, he even conquered the Earth itself and went into space. Its proof that anything can be analyzed. Also, the real meaning of Analyze is 'to break apart'. That is what science is all about: It'd take magic, find its most defined pieces and then work up to more complex arrangements. In the most likely situation magic and science would re-write and combine one another, and create a true unified theory.

Probably the biggest problem that could come of science that could interact with magic would be that someone would create magically receptive nano-colonys. They would then put those nano-colonies into people, creating psuedo-magic crests (Potentially ones that were more powerful than natural ones).

Edit: Also, just imagine.... Leonardo Da'Vinci as a Caster. He'd be unstoppable, not even Saber could touch him and his inventions/familiars/artifacts/crazy-stuff.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » May 14th, 2009, 9:07 am

Pink wrote:I'd say that Magic has better healing capacity, but Technology has better Utillity and Destructive capacities
Not really. Science, when it reaches a certain stage, can heal wounds in an instant *points at nanosuit's healing capability*. Yeah, it's fictional, but still not unthinkable. :)

((A fully load Czar bomb has an explosive power of about 100 Megatons). Magic that can wipe out whole towns is hard to do, but with technology it is child's play... I wonder what the magical effects of such a powerful Nuke would be...
Oh really? Someone who holds a True Magic is proven to be capable of pushing the Moon back to its course, preventing it from falling to Earth.


Humans are really dangerous, and it is unfortunate that the gods/nature/Everthing-not-human didn't kill them out right when they had the chance.
First, when the Earth was born, along with the entity called Gaia, which is the Earth itself, there is Alaya. Alaya is the embodiment of humanity's wish, the crystallization of human existence in the World. It exists to protect humanity, even if it goes against the well being of the Earth. That's why Beasts of Gaia and Beasts of Alaya is depicted as opposing forces.

Also, Gods in Nasuverse are embodiments of human wishes and worships. Without humanity, there can be no Gods, since they are the subject of worship. Gods which are no longer worshipped turns into elementals.

In the most likely situation magic and science would re-write and combine one another, and create a true unified theory.
That's impossible. Magic and Technology are opposing existences. While Technology grows, Magic diminishes. Mystery versus revelation. There's no way those two can coexist in Nasuverse.

Probably the biggest problem that could come of science that could interact with magic would be that someone would create magically receptive nano-colonys. They would then put those nano-colonies into people, creating psuedo-magic crests (Potentially ones that were more powerful than natural ones)
Do you know that people used to use Magic to do genetic engineering? Now with technology, there's no need to refer to magical practices. That's why people won't bother using magic anymore.

Edit: Also, just imagine.... Leonardo Da'Vinci as a Caster. He'd be unstoppable, not even Saber could touch him and his inventions/familiars/artifacts/crazy-stuff.
Da Vinci doesn't cast spells...
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Xanathos » May 17th, 2009, 5:16 am

s4itox wrote:
nobaka wrote:
Soulshade wrote:technology > magic. Didnt Kiritsugu destroy Kayneth with that high powered bullet?


Kiritsugu has magic bullets. No, really. Aren't they special 'mage-killer' bullets that pierce magic, or something? I don't read F/Z, so I'm not positive.


Similar. Kiritsugu has at least two weapons, once being a normal revolver and one being his Mystic Code. His first attack against Kayneth merely exploited the properties of mercury (as someone who respects/uses science would hur hur hur), his second attack utilised his Mystic Code to trash Kayneth's Circuits. (Not sure if this counts as a spoiler though, since I pretty much knew what happened before I'd even read it thanks to various wikis).


In that battle, kiritsugu used a thompson contender and a calico submachine gun. A contender is famous for it's ability to fire all kinds of different calibers, from rifle cartridges (what hit kayneth first) to magic bullets that make mages weep.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Pink » May 18th, 2009, 2:12 am

A neat theory on the forces of the universe, is that they all stem from a single force.

When the universe was created, there was one 'master' energy. Over time it broke down into smaller and smaller conflicting parts (Electromagnetic, Light, Matter, etc)... I think that is how that theory went anyways...

Could it be a possibility that you could go to the origin and then from their, kind of like a zipper, zip together magic and technology?
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby aldw » June 4th, 2009, 3:51 am

Pink wrote:A neat theory on the forces of the universe, is that they all stem from a single force.

When the universe was created, there was one 'master' energy. Over time it broke down into smaller and smaller conflicting parts (Electromagnetic, Light, Matter, etc)... I think that is how that theory went anyways...

Could it be a possibility that you could go to the origin and then from their, kind of like a zipper, zip together magic and technology?


At the fundamental layer of existences all potentialities converge, so that theory makes perfect sense.

That's impossible. Magic and Technology are opposing existences. While Technology grows, Magic diminishes. Mystery versus revelation. There's no way those two can coexist in Nasuverse.


That's not quite true, it's conceptually similar to tachyons moving backwards in time vs conventional space/time moving forwards, all aspects are originating from a singular origin of conception thus all loops back together as a single entity.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 4th, 2009, 1:26 pm

aldw wrote:
Pink wrote:A neat theory on the forces of the universe, is that they all stem from a single force.

When the universe was created, there was one 'master' energy. Over time it broke down into smaller and smaller conflicting parts (Electromagnetic, Light, Matter, etc)... I think that is how that theory went anyways...

Could it be a possibility that you could go to the origin and then from their, kind of like a zipper, zip together magic and technology?


At the fundamental layer of existences all potentialities converge, so that theory makes perfect sense.

That's impossible. Magic and Technology are opposing existences. While Technology grows, Magic diminishes. Mystery versus revelation. There's no way those two can coexist in Nasuverse.


That's not quite true, it's conceptually similar to tachyons moving backwards in time vs conventional space/time moving forwards, all aspects are originating from a singular origin of conception thus all loops back together as a single entity.


I agree
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 4th, 2009, 1:59 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:
aldw wrote:
Pink wrote:A neat theory on the forces of the universe, is that they all stem from a single force.

When the universe was created, there was one 'master' energy. Over time it broke down into smaller and smaller conflicting parts (Electromagnetic, Light, Matter, etc)... I think that is how that theory went anyways...

Could it be a possibility that you could go to the origin and then from their, kind of like a zipper, zip together magic and technology?


At the fundamental layer of existences all potentialities converge, so that theory makes perfect sense.

That's impossible. Magic and Technology are opposing existences. While Technology grows, Magic diminishes. Mystery versus revelation. There's no way those two can coexist in Nasuverse.


That's not quite true, it's conceptually similar to tachyons moving backwards in time vs conventional space/time moving forwards, all aspects are originating from a singular origin of conception thus all loops back together as a single entity.


I agree
In Nasuverse, both are not of the same origin. While Magic is born from mystery, technology is born from revelation. The very origin are not the same. Magic goes weaker as technology gets stronger.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 4th, 2009, 2:25 pm

Kikuchi wrote:In Nasuverse, both are not of the same origin. While Magic is born from mystery, technology is born from revelation. The very origin are not the same. Magic goes weaker as technology gets stronger.


Wait, where Nasu said or implied that?
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby SolarAdept » June 4th, 2009, 4:22 pm

It's shown in every work of his. FSN Caster is the best example of this - she is from 2000 or so years in the past and her strength as a magus is on a completely different level from modern magi. I also read in some wiki that in the past, most magecraft was considered to be Magic - only to get kicked down into magecraft by science's advancement.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Kikuchi » June 5th, 2009, 12:02 am

FUYUKIWIKI wrote:Magic

魔法 - Mahou

Miracles.
The arcane laws.
Feats that are impossible with current science. "Results" that can be realized with time and resources are not called magic. A true miracle. In the early days of civilization, the majority of magi were magic-users. Currently, there are only five left.

The current remaining magic in the world are what those who reached the Root left behind. Those same people never came back for some reason.


That's why for every science advancement, Magic grows weaker.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » June 5th, 2009, 12:18 am

SolarAdept wrote:It's shown in every work of his. FSN Caster is the best example of this - she is from 2000 or so years in the past and her strength as a magus is on a completely different level from modern magi. I also read in some wiki that in the past, most magecraft was considered to be Magic - only to get kicked down into magecraft by science's advancement.


FSN Caster is a heroic spirit. Heroic spirits are in a level far superior too a normal human being so I think that doesn't really count (Compare Archer and his past self)... Also, you could say that in the past people lived in the age of gods, gods walked between people and directly interfered at destiny and gave them powers or people have to confront god-powered things. Don't forget that a lot of heroes in the past used to be half-god, half-demon, half-something-not-human. And if technology was the reason to magic's decrease, why there is a decrease in the number and quality of people that uses swords, bow, archers or even guns? They don't have anything to do with this magic vs science thing...

@kikuchi

Is it possible for you to tell me fuyuki's source dor this article? I'd like to see it myself
"Let Chaos consume your soul, and you won't be neither good nor evil, neither light nor darkness. You will be hollow, will be future, will be freedom." -Chaos Chaud
"You defeat him" -GARcher
"Drown in your ideals and die" -GARcher
"My spine hurts. My body is cold. My fingers are frozen. Yet, my brain burns with fire."- T. Shiki
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