magic vs. technology

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Unread postby that one guy » March 30th, 2009, 12:44 am

Nobaka understands. When it comes to life or death, there are no rules. Take your pride to your grave if you want, anyone with intelligence will do what they have to to stay alive.
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Unread postby Kuuya/Fabre » March 30th, 2009, 4:23 am

Honor is a thin blanket against the cold of the grave >.>

But pie is also nice...
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Unread postby aldw » March 31st, 2009, 4:03 pm

Gargoyles and To Aru Majutsu no Index's juxtaposition of magic and science seemed better than the Harry Potter conception of magic, it wouldn't take much to see something similar in the Nasuverse.
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Unread postby Vhailor » March 31st, 2009, 6:35 pm

Technically, a Noble Phantasm is something like throwing dust into the eyes of the opponent... Well, much more dangerous than that in fact.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » April 1st, 2009, 4:26 am

Where can I get some of this dust?
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Unread postby that one guy » April 1st, 2009, 5:00 am

Ask for a guy named Tyrone Biggums, he can get you anything you want. So long as you give him some money for crack.
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Unread postby Xamdou » April 1st, 2009, 10:21 am

^
lol at that :D
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Unread postby mewarmo990 » April 3rd, 2009, 4:56 am

As soon as Tohsaka Toriomi heard about Kiritsugu's participation in the Heaven's Feel, he was enraged because the man's reputation as the "mage killer" conflicted with the magus' conceit that magi were too good to be killed by conventional means. I think the relationship between the Association and the Vatican, however, has more to do with politics than anything else. As we've seen, the Association is willing to accept magic users like Kotomine Kirei into their ranks, and there hasn't been open violence between the two sides for a long time. It would be mistaken to call their relationship a conflict, since it has been referred to many times as something closer to co-existence. If not for the leadership of both sides the organization would probably have merged long ago. It becomes clear as one learns more lore that Kiritsugu told Shirou to become a "magic user" rather than a "magi", because the latter would imply that Shirou would be politically bound to the Association and whatever dirty games it plays with the Church and other factions.

ILPPendant wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
The Church allowed blasphemous beings such as Ciel to exist and be incorporated into their ranks, I think that says a lot about the weakness of their faith and their quest for power. I don't think blasphemous is an incorrect term, since Ciel was the host of a DAA, and is functionally immortal.

I heard it said somewhere that the Burial Agency is not particularly popular in the Church; it's usually regarded as a necessary evil. If vampires ever disappeared I don't doubt the Church would turn on the Agency in a heartbeat. The Nasu-verse never seems particularly short of 40k-esque zeal.


The Burial Agency seems to be disliked by the mainstream factions of the church because of their fanaticism, and because they are willing to stoop to using even demonic weapons and powers in order to carry out their goals (
point in case: Ciel herself
). I recall reading that the Burial Agency is said to be willing to purge Pope himself if he ever showed any signs of demonic possession. I think Nasu decided to relegate the stereotypical Inquisitional role of the Vatican specifically to the Burial Agency just so he could, for narrative purposes, create more peaceful factions.
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Unread postby abscess » April 3rd, 2009, 6:32 am

mewarmo990 wrote:The Burial Agency seems to be disliked by the mainstream factions of the church because of their fanaticism, and because they are willing to stoop to using even demonic weapons and powers in order to carry out their goals
That's about right, from what I've read. Somewhere in EvoSpace's site (Moonlit World), there is a portion that speaks about them and does mention that. I do wonder about the Church's knight's zeal though, I'm betting they are willing to do some dirty work themselves to ensure the church's goals are met, but probably not to the point of using "blasphemous" tactics or killing the pope if he ends up possessed (at least not without considering another way to recover his humanity).

Anyway, there are very few series (games, anime, wathevs) that mix technology with magic, that's quite dissapointing. It seems more like an overused cliche that makes one think it's being used as an excuse not to stray from a safer path in which to develop a story. Just imagine what cool gadgetry could be designed with that basis! That sorta reminds me of Skies of Arcadia for the DC T_T such good times and good games...
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby serialies » May 5th, 2009, 10:18 am

while arrogance and tradition most certainly plays a part, there are simpler reasons.

1. the more mysterious the magic, the stronger it is, science uncovers mysteries.
one of the reasons why magic was much stronger in the past, mysterious phrases could create mysterious things.
more and more science unravelled the natural world, the less and less mysterious things became.

if i knew a way to create 10 dollars magically, teaching someone else means i can now only create 5 dollars magically, the mystery becomes less and less if more people know.
also, inevitably magic will be lost simply out of disinterest/discarded for science.

so magi dislike magic, because it made them weaker in many ways, they would not accept using it when it is a tool for their downfall.

2. the only known way to reach the root (Akasha, " ", etc) is either by dying, being so close to dying you are pretty much there (or simply having a body that can be both alive and dead), or reaching the root via magical research/blasting a mana hole. This is desirable for magi, who are in pursuit of knowledge, also grants true magic if you manage to avoid being consumed by Akasa (or whatever else may happen over there, stopping your return to the real world).

3. true magic can accomplish miracles, time travel, dimension travel, manifestation of the soul, all of these things science cannot accomplish.
if you think of a magi as someone ambitious, it makes sense for them to follow the life that leads them to the greatest rewards.
science can be grapsed more easily, and by more people, but it's peak is below that of magic.

for someone like Kiritsugu, he does not care about tradition, he does not care about the root (probably), he does not need true magic to accomplish his goals.
so it is not issue for him to mix magic and science, as for him, they are just tools.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby TheRedArcher » May 5th, 2009, 5:29 pm

That makes much more sense. Now it is easier to see where the arrogance and the hatred for technology comes from. But there is one thing I would like to comment on.

serialies wrote:3. true magic can accomplish miracles, time travel, dimension travel, manifestation of the soul, all of these things science cannot accomplish.
if you think of a magi as someone ambitious, it makes sense for them to follow the life that leads them to the greatest rewards.
science can be grapsed more easily, and by more people, but it's peak is below that of magic.


It's true to say that magic can produce fantastic results, but I think it is still too early to say that science can never reach magic's potential. As you said before, magic is the manipulation of the mysteries of life while science is the unraveling of mysteries. So science continues to progress as time goes on. It is hard to say what science can and cannot do when science has not reached its peak yet. For all we know, someone might discover how to time travel, revive the dead or whatever in the future. While it seems impossible now, it is because it is still "mysterious" and that mystery has been not yet been discovered.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 5th, 2009, 10:23 pm

I'm not sure if i would say tha magic is mysterious... People tend to consider something mysterious if they doesn't understand it. For those who study magic, it must be only a bunch of decorated formulas and true magic is as mysterious to them as "common" magic would to science people. Anf for those who use true magic, true magic would be just something ordinary but maybe for them science would be mysterious.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Soulshade » May 6th, 2009, 7:45 am

technology > magic. Didnt Kiritsugu destroy Kayneth with that high powered bullet?
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby nobaka » May 6th, 2009, 6:10 pm

Soulshade wrote:technology > magic. Didnt Kiritsugu destroy Kayneth with that high powered bullet?


Kiritsugu has magic bullets. No, really. Aren't they special 'mage-killer' bullets that pierce magic, or something? I don't read F/Z, so I'm not positive.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby s4itox » May 7th, 2009, 2:58 pm

nobaka wrote:
Soulshade wrote:technology > magic. Didnt Kiritsugu destroy Kayneth with that high powered bullet?


Kiritsugu has magic bullets. No, really. Aren't they special 'mage-killer' bullets that pierce magic, or something? I don't read F/Z, so I'm not positive.


Similar. Kiritsugu has at least two weapons, once being a normal revolver and one being his Mystic Code. His first attack against Kayneth merely exploited the properties of mercury (as someone who respects/uses science would hur hur hur), his second attack utilised his Mystic Code to trash Kayneth's Circuits. (Not sure if this counts as a spoiler though, since I pretty much knew what happened before I'd even read it thanks to various wikis).
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby solopy567 » May 8th, 2009, 12:58 am

I think technology and magic are more or less on the same level. Lets say you have a world with technology (e.g. ours) and a world with magic, and you put them at the same timescale (Say they are both at the year 2008).

I'd say that both of them are equally advanced.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby aldw » May 9th, 2009, 5:05 pm

As Arthur C. Clarke famously said, 'sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' As both magic and technology are epistemological formats requiring mechanistic structures this is consistent with the consilienist conception of the unity of knowledge.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby solopy567 » May 9th, 2009, 5:27 pm

Please say that in English, all the jargon threw me off
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby Chaos Chaud » May 9th, 2009, 7:48 pm

Basically he said that: as magic and technology both have a definite structure, if the magic and technology are advanced enough, without previous knowledge about what is happening, you won't be able to say if it's magic or technology.
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Re: magic vs. technology

Unread postby solopy567 » May 9th, 2009, 11:00 pm

That's true....some things today are so advanced they do look like magic.
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