Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 5:20 am

TheRedArcher wrote:I agree with your reasons as to why Archer does not use a pseudo Gate of Babylon. But that brings up another question. Archer does use a pseudo Gate of Babylon. How and why in the world did Archer kill Caster in that particular fashion? If it cost so much prana, then why use a rain of weapons, each using up a certain amount of prana which Archer does not have a lot of. It seems like a stupid choice to kill his source of prana with a move that consumes a lot of prana. And I don't recall Archer using his UBW when summoning his weapons, he just did simple tracing and projection indicated by his words, "trace on". Either Archer has a reason to kill Caster with a pseudo Gate of Babylon or he is just very bad at planning for the future.
Oh, I never said he didn't use it. He did. But I said that the fact that he would spam it anywhere, anyhow he likes (like the way Gil does it; he uses it in EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER) is highly unlikely because of the reason I stated above.

And yes, he can trace weapons without UBW. But didn't you read my explanation? Tracing without fully activating UBW would cost him prana for each sword he traces. When he activates UBW, he doesn't have to pay the cost for each sword, but still it would toll him the upkeep cost to activate and maintain the Reality Marble.

While Gil? It doesn't cost him AT ALL to sword spam from GoB. So it's down to this: Archer using sword spam without UBW is like buying cans of cola (ok, this is a bad analogy but still works). Archer using fully activated UBW to sword spam is like buying a vending machine (with the upkeep cost and stuffs). Gil using sword spam with GoB is... nothing. He owns the cola company.

TheRedArcher wrote:Stuff
Feh, I already explained that Archer is like an amalgamation of possible Heroic Spirit EMIYA. There's an entry in Fuyuki that states somewhere along the line of "heroes in the Throne of Heroes is like a room with a book. Each time a hero is summoned or if there's a new entry from alternate timeline, a new book is sent and deposited in the room. Archer's room already have all book from the beginning."

No matter how much you hope for alternate versions of a Heroic Spirit, there is a base. Heroes summoned can't be too far off from their base in Akasha. Otherwise, Angra Mainyu would be a true God and King Arthur would be a male, since the heroes summoned / picked by the Grail are the versions closest to their images in humanity, given if there exist such versions.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 6:10 am

Shourai,
I am questioning the fact WHY he used pseudo GoB on Caster. It is very bad Archer when the move is so unfriendly because of its mana cost. As for UBW thing, you said this,
Shourai wrote:"The only way if Archer wants to use sword barrages like Gil is to activate UBW"

Archer clearly uses a sword barrage without using UBW. I gave reasons as to why I think Archer is tracing a pseudo GoB and not summoning a GoB with UBW.
I was merely responding to your words. Perhaps you should carefully read YOUR own post before commenting on my observation skills.

As for the Sarcher. It is true that your "library" explanation would work and explain how Emiya can be many Emiyas, therefore, eliminating the possibility of Sarcher. But it brings up another question. If Emiya is truly an amalgamation of all Emiyas, then how come Archer only has ONE past. The servants in the War can only have ONE past. If they had two, that would be very confusing and put things out of whack because people can't experience two different things at the exactly same time. So how can Archer be a true amalgamation of Archers when the Archers (experienced similar but still different) are all within him? It is like being in Canada AND China at the same time or doing your homework at home while playing bowling at the bowling alley two blocks away.
Plus, true God Angra Mainyu and Male King Arthur are fundamentally different from the real versions (you said so yourself). BUT, a super stat Archer is not fundamentally different, he just has different stats. Would person A and person A2 be fundamentally different if Person A is stronger and faster than Person A2 when the only difference between the two is physical strength? He can still have the same moves, gender, looks and ideals (Archer's ideals are the most important because he based his life upon those ideals); but his past can be a bit altered to become super Archer. This super Archer would be in this "library" so that would influence the room. If there are enough "Super Archer" books, then the embodiment of the amalgamation of Emiyas would be "Super Archer". BUT, it is very, very unlikely that the library would have more than one or two books on "The Adventures of Super Archer". BUT that does not mean that there is a chance that there will be more books. For that one installment of "The Adventures of Super Archer" could lead to equals and adaptions since A) there are futures that are not set (who knows, UBW Shirou might become Super Archer) and B) other "books" can inspire other books (the enlightened Archer from the UBW arc will go back to the "library" and influence the room. So future Archers might not have a pessimistic view in future encounters with Shirou and influence more Super Archers). And the chance to actually become Sarcher would be even lower because of the factors that go into summoning a servant. So the main point is Archer still has a chance, an unlikely chance, but a chance nonetheless to have the stats of Sarcher; therefore, has a chance to be Sarcher.
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Unread postby Inverted » April 8th, 2009, 6:15 am

Shourai wrote:No matter how much you hope for alternate versions of a Heroic Spirit, there is a base. Heroes summoned can't be too far off from their base in Akasha. Otherwise, Angra Mainyu would be a true God and King Arthur would be a male, since the heroes summoned / picked by the Grail are the versions closest to their images in humanity, given if there exist such versions.


Giles De Rais ( 4 th Caster) prana level is 'E' ,so under very specific circumstances Emiya maybe able to be summoned as Saber. But being a Magus-Swordsman-Archer IMO he has greater chances of being summoned as Caster after Archer as doesn't really fit any category.
TheRedArcher wrote:Archer clearly uses a sword barrage without using UBW. I gave reasons as to why I think Archer is tracing a pseudo GoB and not summoning a GoB with UBW.
I was merely responding to your words. Perhaps you should carefully read YOUR own post before commenting on my observation skills.

Because tracing cost is only 5 units.

Also the one in the throne is Emiya . "Archer" is just a product of one timeline filtered down to avoid temporal contradiction.

@ Red Archer
What you are saying is something like , if Emiya in one timeline becomes a powerful DA , will he get his DA stats or his human stats?

Most probably he will get his DA stats as he was at the peak of his powers then. Also he will be a vampire.
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 6:32 am

TheRedArcher wrote:Shourai,
I am questioning the fact WHY he used pseudo GoB on Caster. It is very bad Archer when the move is so unfriendly because of its mana cost. As for UBW thing, you said this,
Shourai wrote:"The only way if Archer wants to use sword barrages like Gil is to activate UBW"

Archer clearly uses a sword barrage without using UBW. I gave reasons as to why I think Archer is tracing a pseudo GoB and not summoning a GoB with UBW.
I was merely responding to your words. Perhaps you should carefully read YOUR own post before commenting on my observation skills.
"Like Gil" is to spam swords without need to trace it countless times. Just swords appearing from nowhere without further prana cost (besides the fact that UBW activation requires great prana). Gil doesn't trace swords. :P

So how can Archer be a true amalgamation of Archers when the Archers (experienced similar but still different) are all within him? It is like being in Canada AND China at the same time or doing your homework at home while playing bowling at the bowling alley two blocks away.
It's neither strange nor impossible. The cycle of time doesn't exist for dead people, after all.

Plus, true God Angra Mainyu and Male King Arthur are fundamentally different from the real versions (you said so yourself). BUT, a super stat Archer is not fundamentally different, he just has different stats. Would person A and person A2 be fundamentally different if Person A is stronger and faster than Person A2 when the only difference between the two is physical strength? He can still have the same moves, gender, looks and ideals (Archer's ideals are the most important because he based his life upon those ideals); but his past can be a bit altered to become super Archer. This super Archer would be in this "library" so that would influence the room. If there are enough "Super Archer" books, then the embodiment of the amalgamation of Emiyas would be "Super Archer". BUT, it is very, very unlikely that the library would have more than one or two books on "The Adventures of Super Archer". BUT that does not mean that there is a chance that there will be more books. For that one installment of "The Adventures of Super Archer" could lead to equals and adaptions since A) there are futures that are not set (who knows, UBW Shirou might become Super Archer) and B) other "books" can inspire other books (the enlightened Archer from the UBW arc will go back to the "library" and influence the room. So future Archers might not have a pessimistic view in future encounters with Shirou and influence more Super Archers). And the chance to actually become Sarcher would be even lower because of the factors that go into summoning a servant. So the main point is Archer still has a chance, an unlikely chance, but a chance nonetheless to have the stats of Sarcher; therefore, has a chance to be Sarcher
.
Super status Archer is fundamentally different. Why? Shirou himself stated that Archer is the pinnacle of hard work (Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami, lol), the best he can achieve as a human being. So unless you want to argue that this "super status" Archer is a breed between human and God or human and monsters, or whatever else, which is impossible because of what I said - there is a base for every hero (you cannot find a non-demigod version of Hercules, can you?), Archer can have no higher status than he does now. And heck, that status already received a boost from Alaya; it's no longer his human status.

Inverted wrote:Giles De Rais ( 4 th Caster) prana level is 'E' ,so under very specific circumstances Emiya maybe able to be summoned as Saber. But being a Magus-Swordsman-Archer IMO he has greater chances of being summoned as Caster after Archer as doesn't really fit any category.
Prana Level is not MGI(at least, that's what I think). Not to be confused each other; Prana level is the level of prana the Servant has, and it's also highly dependent on the Master. MGI is the magical power /potential the Servant has. HF4 Caster has a normal human as a master (funny how both Casters end up with human Masters), that's why his prana level is at E.
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Unread postby Inverted » April 8th, 2009, 7:22 am

And heck, that status already received a boost from Alaya; it's no longer his human status.

We don't know what sort of help he received. We only know he received help at that moment. So thats a grey area and is comes under speculation.

Prana Level is not MGI(at least, that's what I think). Not to be confused each other; Prana level is the level of prana the Servant has, and it's also highly dependent on the Master. MGI is the magical power /potential the Servant has. HF4 Caster has a normal human as a master (funny how both Casters end up with human Masters), that's why his prana level is at E.

Wrong choice of words sorry .His MGI is 'E' from the beginning.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 8:52 am

Shourai wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:Shourai,
I am questioning the fact WHY he used pseudo GoB on Caster. It is very bad Archer when the move is so unfriendly because of its mana cost. As for UBW thing, you said this,
Shourai wrote:"The only way if Archer wants to use sword barrages like Gil is to activate UBW"

Archer clearly uses a sword barrage without using UBW. I gave reasons as to why I think Archer is tracing a pseudo GoB and not summoning a GoB with UBW.
I was merely responding to your words. Perhaps you should carefully read YOUR own post before commenting on my observation skills.
"Like Gil" is to spam swords without need to trace it countless times. Just swords appearing from nowhere without further prana cost (besides the fact that UBW activation requires great prana). Gil doesn't trace swords. :P


Hm. I see. Then I apologize for misreading your earlier comment but I will not take back what I said due to the ambiguity of the sentence. (English sucks :()

Now back to the Sarcher topic.

it is true that Archer is the result of hard work, but what if something was able to influence him to something more (something other than Alaya). Archer only reached the max of an untalented person. But that limit can be broken. There are people who are not the sons of Gods and demons that have reached the strength of heroes. Ex. Sasaki Koujirou, Arturia, Lancelot and a whole shitload of people in famous legends and stories (take your pick: Romance of the Three Kingdoms; the warring states period of Japan; Age of the Vikings; the Odyssey, where a normal (as in non-God/demon) person was even able to challenge the freakin Gods) (even if they aren't the protagonist, for example, I am pretty sure another knight from the round table could easily be around the strength of Arturia or Lancelot physical wise). So when is this limit broken? Archer's base is based off an untalented person. But the other servants were once people too. Archer has not reached his full potential. If he did, then he would be destroying servants left and right. His YOUNGER self is able to destroy Dark Berserker without being a servant. So one of Archer's lives could have reached this potential and influenced the "library". It's difficult to point out the limits of a human when legends talk of people slaying dragons and other mystical beings. Even Assassin, who is the pinnacle of human swordsmanship, has respectable physical stats.

So it comes to this. Does the Grail give them a further boost? If servants are summoned as they were when they were alive, then that means there were hundreds of humans running around with the ability to destroy the greatest of monsters. And it seems strange that it is no longer true in this time period. Even Assassin, who isn't even from a time period of the Gods, has a strength rank of C and an agility rank of A+. If the Grail just summoned Assassin as he was from his time, that means there were people running around Japan who had A to C level strength and speed (hehe, Samurai Warriors). It is true that Assassin is a "fake" servant and technically is not "real" in the nasuverse. But that does not change the people's expectations of him. Even in his fairytale land, there must have been people who had equal strength and skills as he does; otherwise, he would be known as the strongest person of all time during his time "alive" in his fairytale land. So if the Grail gives a boost to the servant, how much does it give? I assume it is based upon the summoning of the servant. Why? Because the master also has a huge impact on the stats of the servant. The Emiya in Alaya could have had decent stats but because of the messed up summoning, Archer might have got decreased stats. It's like taking a freshly baked pie is coming out of the oven but the cook accidentally dropped the whole thing on the ground, picked it up, and got a messed up pie in the end. So Archer could have been a decent Archer with decent stats but came out even worse than before.

So to sum it up, Archer's limits have not been defined because, in general, humans have not reached a limit (or at least their limit should technically be in the A range). Even if Archer has reached his limits, Shirou can break those limits. And if the summoning of the servant can affect the stats of the servant for the worse, then the original Archer could have had better stats (This one is kinda far fetched but I still put it up here as a possibility).

Note that I am not only trying to prove Archer's ability to be in the Saber class by only providing possibilities, but I am also providing these possibilities to question your theory as to why there can never be a Sarcher. Your theory only holds water if you know the result of every single Emiya. But if I am able to provide one possibility that cannot be disproved with the rules of the "nasuverse" and basic logic, than your theory is no longer valid (until my possibility is disproved).
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Unread postby sabata2 » April 8th, 2009, 9:35 am

Just a note Red...

You're basically using the same argument I did when I pointed out Shirou could Trace Attributes.

You're just going at it from the point of "What if another Shirou trained harder?" where as I said "What if those attributes stayed?"

Seeing as my argument never really got a conclusion outside of "here's proof attributes don't stick", I'd like to see the counter for your argument.
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 9:55 am

Warning: pages long quote responds; massive wall of text.
TheRedArcher wrote:Now back to the Sarcher topic.

it is true that Archer is the result of hard work, but what if something was able to influence him to something more (something other than Alaya). Archer only reached the max of an untalented person. But that limit can be broken. There are people who are not the sons of Gods and demons that have reached the strength of heroes. Ex. Sasaki Koujirou, Arturia, Lancelot and a whole shitload of people in famous legends and stories (take your pick: Romance of the Three Kingdoms; the warring states period of Japan; Age of the Vikings; the Odyssey, where a normal (as in non-God/demon) person was even able to challenge the freakin Gods) (even if they aren't the protagonist, for example, I am pretty sure another knight from the round table could easily be around the strength of Arturia or Lancelot physical wise).
Arturia isn't human; she is a dragon incarnation. And Lancelot, heck, he's got protection of the faeries. As for Romance of Three Kingdoms, all that happened was just human slaying other humans. Archer can also do that. And no, physical status-wise, Lancelot was the best. I can't remember where I read this entry; probably somewhere in Fuyuki.

So when is this limit broken?
When you are no longer human.
Archer's base is based off an untalented person. But the other servants were once people too. Archer has not reached his full potential. If he did, then he would be destroying servants left and right.
Not all Servants were once human. In fact, besides Assassin and EMIYA, all HF5 Servants were NOT human. Dragon incarnation, demigods, monster incarnation, sorceress from the Age of The Gods... and we know that Magic from the past > Magic now.

His YOUNGER self is able to destroy Dark Berserker without being a servant.
So? All he did was just copying Berserker's technique, and technically, Black Berserker was killed because of the split second hesitation. Even GARm Shirou couldn't kill Berserker outright, and would have been killed instead if not because of plot armor.

So one of Archer's lives could have reached this potential and influenced the "library".
Then again, HF Shirou's chances of becoming Archer is near zero. So let's leave him out of question.

Even Assassin, who is the pinnacle of human swordsmanship, has respectable physical stats.
But even Assasin's status wasn't impressive like Saber or Berserker's wasn't it?

Does the Grail give them a further boost?
No. Short and simple. Legends can give them boost, but the Grail is just giving them vessels aka spiritual bodies to live in the present era. Different story if they are immersed in the content of the corrupted Grail. (eg Black Saber)

If servants are summoned as they were when they were alive, then that means there were hundreds of humans running around with the ability to destroy the greatest of monsters.
Oh yes. Either by the human's physical capabilities, or their weapons aka Noble Phantasm. That's what enables inferior Heroic Spirit to overpower superior Heroic Spirit.

And it seems strange that it is no longer true in this time period.
Oh yes, of course. Modern day heroes are difficult to emerge, given that fact. And Noble Phantasms too.
Fuyuki wrote:Of course, since there are so many crises going on in the modern era and being solved in the blink of an eye, nowadays nobody is really fit in the grand body of humanity to be called a "hero", at least in respects to those from the past.


Even Assassin, who isn't even from a time period of the Gods, has a strength rank of C and an agility rank of A+.
The speed is one thing; maybe 1 out of 1000 people can achieve that. But the strength isn't all that impressive, in terms of Heroic Spirit.

The Emiya in Alaya could have had decent stats but because of the messed up summoning, Archer might have got decreased stats.
Bleh.There was no mentioning of status decrease because of messed up summoning. And do you think RIN could have made that kind of mistake? Mistake of summoning causing blurry memory is a large enough mistake for someone at her caliber.

So to sum it up, Archer's limits have not been defined because, in general, humans have not reached a limit
... If humans don't have limits, then there is no Heroes or Heroic Spirits. They became Heroes because they passed the limitations of a human. Archer, on the other hand, cannot surpass that limit.

ote that I am not only trying to prove Archer's ability to be in the Saber class by only providing possibilities, but I am also providing these possibilities to question your theory as to why there can never be a Sarcher. Your theory only holds water if you know the result of every single Emiya. But if I am able to provide one possibility that cannot be disproved with the rules of the "nasuverse" and basic logic, than your theory is no longer valid (until my possibility is disproved).
"Saddam Hussein has a WMD because we cannot prove otherwise". Seriously, I have gotten tired of these things :P . I point my claim based on fragments of facts to support my argument. Unless you can provide something on an even footing, I don't know what to do. Begging the question is not an answer. :P


sabata2 wrote:You're just going at it from the point of "What if another Shirou trained harder?" where as I said "What if those attributes stayed?"

Seeing as my argument never really got a conclusion outside of "here's proof attributes don't stick", I'd like to see the counter for your argument.
Oh my... *They are two very very distinct things, gaining status and tracing it. One is acquired through training (or whatever else) and one is an instant effect from "Trace On". Two VERY distinct processes. They are not even similar. >.>
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Unread postby sabata2 » April 8th, 2009, 10:13 am

Shourai wrote:
The Emiya in Alaya could have had decent stats but because of the messed up summoning, Archer might have got decreased stats.
Bleh.There was no mentioning of status decrease because of messed up summoning. And do you think RIN could have made that kind of mistake? Mistake of summoning causing blurry memory is a large enough mistake for someone at her caliber.


The fact that she MADE a mistake is proof enough.

(Anything PRIOR to a "therefore" is the argumentation towards anything POST a "therefore")

Rin made an error in the summoning of Archer.
therefore
Something is wrong with Archer.
Archer has a blurry memory.
therefore
Archer's only problem is his memory

^^^ That's your stance for what is quoted. And it fails because you are making Rin out to be some GOD of magic (as seen in your bold).

Red's argument for the above quoted is thus:

Rin made an error in the summoning of Archer.
therefore
Something is wrong with Archer.
Archer's stats are low compared to other Servants.
therefore
It is possible one of Archer's problems were stat decreases.

^^^ And that logically follows. It MAY NOT be correct, but it stands FAR better than your counter.
Just as he cannot prove himself absolutely correct, you cannot prove Red wrong on this point.



And I know my prior argument was faulty, I already SAID it was proven wrong. I was only saying Red's entire stance was basically the same, just on a different ground, Training instead of Tracing.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 11:28 am

sabata2 wrote:Just a note Red...

You're basically using the same argument I did when I pointed out Shirou could Trace Attributes.

You're just going at it from the point of "What if another Shirou trained harder?" where as I said "What if those attributes stayed?"

Seeing as my argument never really got a conclusion outside of "here's proof attributes don't stick", I'd like to see the counter for your argument.


I am not necessarily saying that Shirou is training harder but for this purpose lets just say I am. The attributes that you speak of are attributes that Shirou gets from the weapon. So once the weapon is gone, the attributes are gone as well. It's like eating a piece of candy. The candy is not going to last forever. The "change" I am talking about is a permanent one. Weapons aren't a permanent stats booster so I am talking about something that gives him a permanent boost, like Alaya's boost or he used those fusion earrings from dragonball or whatever. Something that Emiya can take with him to Alaya.

I would like to see the counter for my argument as well. Frankly, It is somewhat easier for my side of the argument because I can throw in any possibility that is tied to basic logic and the opponent has to disprove MY statement. And even if it has been disproved, I can throw another possibility into the pot. The opponent cannot change his stance but I have more opportunities to disprove his theory than he has to disprove mine, since he can only defend and counter while I can attack and defend. But in the end, it doesn't really matter in the end if Sarcher really has no way of existing. The theory has to be extremely solid, so if Sarcher really has no way of existing, then that will be the conclusion of the argument. Its just like how it is very very hard to disprove the theory of atoms, Newton's Laws, and what not, because it is solid to the point where pretty much all questions can be answered according to that theory. So if I exhaust all of my questions and possibilities, then I will have to accept that there is no Sarcher. (Although, I doesn't really matter if there is a Sarcher or not, I actually think it makes Archer cooler that a low class warrior can fight evenly against the greatest heroes of history)

Going back to Shourai (That is a huge wall of text)

(Each paragraph is a counter for each response of each quote)

1.Going to the part about human heroes' limits. I guess we can take Aturia out, but what about the other heroes? Lancelot may have the protection of the faeries but he is still human. Three Kingdoms is about humans killing humans, BUT, there are many of them who would be considered a hero because of blown up legends, stories and what not. In fact, there was a lot magic mixed into the three kingdoms as well. When I am talking about matching Lancelot "physically", I mean that there are other warriors in his time period. If Lancelot (non-berserker) was running around with all around B class stats, then he might as well destroy the other army because everyone is a normal knight (at best E stats), so there must have been warriors there that can balance that power. Some in the enemies side, some on the protagonist's side. So that means there were a bunch of warriors with C or B or A class stats scattered around in Europe during the time of King Arthur. The same can be said for any other legend or story.

2. So are you saying that all heroes are not human? All heroes have done something that was "impossible" or going against destiny. Then that means both Emiya and Assassin aren't human anymore.

3. This part was my bad. When I say other servants, I meant human servants. But the fact that Assassin and Emiya exist show that there can be human servants.

4. But this shows that HF Shirou was able to do something that Archer could not do, defeat Berserker. HF Shirou has done something that has "surpassed" the original. So that means that Archer still has more room to grow. I am talking about the POTENTIAL of Archer, not really about how strong HF Shirou is. If a YOUNGER self can achieve something greater than Archer can in the prime of his life, that means Archer has not reached that potential, therefore, there can be a parallel universe where that Archer did reach that potential.

5. I don't really care about HF Shirou in this one. I only used HF Shirou to get across the point that Archer still has room to grow. If that Archer can influence more Shirous in more wars, then it can be possible that there are more "books" where Archer does meet his full potential.

6. Saber and Berserker are the strongest of servants, so they are going to have the best of stats. I said "respectable" not godly. The reason I bring Assassin into this is because Assassin is a human just like Emiya. However, Assassin is able to achieve stats that allow him to have above human skills. He even does something that is physically impossible without the help of a noble phantasm or magic. If Assassin, a human, is able to reach stats as high as A, then Emiya, who is untalented, should reach stats as high as at least C.

7. That was just a question I want answered.

8. I am talking about when "they were alive". If they were alive and had stats up the wazoo, then it would be a very chaotic world where one person has the ability to destroy an army. I am not talking about servant v. servant, I am talking about the strength they had when they were ALIVE.

9. That was just a statement I made.

10. I'm not talking about heroic spirits, I am comparing to PEOPLE, HUMANS, HOMO SAPIENS. The whole reason I am bringing Assassin, the stats of when human heroes were alive and things like that is because YOU stated the fact that Emiya is at the pinnicle of hard work and is the strongest of what "he can achieve as a human being". But I am bringing in the fact that Assassin, a human, can reach godly speed and reasonable strength. Something that Archer can accomplish, considering he did not reach his full potential. Plus, the pinnicle of hard work does not make you the strongest you can possibly be. It just means you work as hard as you possibly can. Which Shirou did, and became Archer; but alas, did not reach his full potential. So there can be another timeline where Shirou does reach this potential through more time or whatever.

11. Sabata2 summed up my point pretty well for this one.

12. Ok, my sentence was worded badly. I meant that any human can break the limit, including untalented people. What matters is if people actually put the effort to break it or not. And this is not easy. That is why you don't see 20,000 heroes everyday on your way to work. Yes, they can potentially become heroes if they break that limit; however, Emiya can break it. Why? Because humans CAN break the limit. And Emiya, who tries harder than anyone else, can break the limit, he even did something that went against destiny, something that is above normal human limits.

13. And yes. A theory is called a theory and not a fact for a reason. It cannot be completely proven or disproven depending on the theory. For all we know, Newton's laws might be disproven tomorrow. But it depends on how we take up that EVIDENCE that is based upon BASIC LOGIC. If I actually prove that 2F=ma, would you believe it? It depends, and it depends because of the EVIDENCE that I provide. If I prove for this one solid experiment that 2F=ma, that means that basic physics has to be rethought because F=ma is no longer liable. But the fact that so far, noone has disproven it means that it is more likely for it to be true. The longer a theory is out there in the water, the stronger the theory would become because of the defense against the attacking criticisms. For your Saddam Hussein statement, It is more "there is no concrete evidence" to believe that there are WMDs. Since there is not one shred of evidence, it makes it very hard to believe. But if one day, we found out that Saddam actually had WMDs, then we would look silly for not believing such a thing. But the fact is, so far, no WMDs have been found, and based on the current events, it seems unlikely for Saddam to have WMDs. A theory must have EVIDENCE to be a concrete theory. You have a theory that there can be no Sarcher. So what I am doing is questioning your theory. If your theory is truly solid, than my possibility should be impossible. Your counter arguments did not answer much since I am able to counter back. And you say you want me to provide you something with an even footing? That is what I am doing. Putting about possibilities that seem to have no contradictions with the nasuverse rules. And if you can't provide a contradiction, then that makes one possibility possible and takes down your theory. So yes, this constant exchange of arguments is the only way to do things, unless Nasu comes over here and says "Let there be Sarcher" or "Sarcher will never exist". But even then, he must give a reasonable explanation as to why this and this is true. It would just be easier for him because he can pull shit from his ass for the ambiguous parts the nasuverse and it would still be correct.
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 11:46 am

sabata2 wrote:
The fact that she MADE a mistake is proof enough.

(Anything PRIOR to a "therefore" is the argumentation towards anything POST a "therefore")

Rin made an error in the summoning of Archer.
therefore
Something is wrong with Archer.
Archer has a blurry memory.
therefore
Archer's only problem is his memory

^^^ That's your stance for what is quoted. And it fails because you are making Rin out to be some GOD of magic (as seen in your bold).

Red's argument for the above quoted is thus:

Rin made an error in the summoning of Archer.
therefore
Something is wrong with Archer.
Archer's stats are low compared to other Servants.
therefore
It is possible one of Archer's problems were stat decreases.

^^^ And that logically follows. It MAY NOT be correct, but it stands FAR better than your counter.
Just as he cannot prove himself absolutely correct, you cannot prove Red wrong on this point.
You know... rather than judging why an argument is better because it sounds better (to you), why don't we look at the fact?
Image
Archer himself said that it's only trivial things that became a bit vague.


And I know my prior argument was faulty, I already SAID it was proven wrong. I was only saying Red's entire stance was basically the same, just on a different ground, Training instead of Tracing.
Oh sorry. You said that there was no conclusion to the point you made, so I went on and pointed out.


1.Going to the part about human heroes' limits. I guess we can take Aturia out, but what about the other heroes? Lancelot may have the protection of the faeries but he is still human. Three Kingdoms is about humans killing humans, BUT, there are many of them who would be considered a hero because of blown up legends, stories and what not. In fact, there was a lot magic mixed into the three kingdoms as well. When I am talking about matching Lancelot "physically", I mean that there are other warriors in his time period. If Lancelot (non-berserker) was running around with all around B class stats, then he might as well destroy the other army because everyone is a normal knight (at best E stats), so there must have been warriors there that can balance that power. Some in the enemies side, some on the protagonist's side. So that means there were a bunch of warriors with C or B or A class stats scattered around in Europe during the time of King Arthur. The same can be said for any other legend or story.
Bleh. So you say that heroes in Romance (or there is someone who can) can actually match them? Saber and Lancelot? How do you know? Does any story in Nasuverse actually provide some kind of information on these heroes? How can you say that they surpassed human limits?

2. So are you saying that all heroes are not human? All heroes have done something that was "impossible" or going against destiny. Then that means both Emiya and Assassin aren't human anymore.
... I don't know how you arrive to this conclusion. Assassin was not a hero; he's just a wraith playing the supposed role of Sasaki Kojirou. And Archer didn't become hero through his own power. Oh, must I point out that Counter Guardians are not exactly heroes? They don't have the power to become the embodiment of humanity's wishes, that's why they were used as a mindless counter force by the World.

3. This part was my bad. When I say other servants, I meant human servants. But the fact that Assassin and Emiya exist show that there can be human servants.
I never said there couldn't be any human Servants. But as I said, Archer and Assassin's status were nowhere half impressive as, for instance, Lancer? Berserker? Saber?

4. But this shows that HF Shirou was able to do something that Archer could not do, defeat Berserker. HF Shirou has done something that has "surpassed" the original. So that means that Archer still has more room to grow. I am talking about the POTENTIAL of Archer, not really about how strong HF Shirou is. If a YOUNGER self can achieve something greater than Archer can in the prime of his life, that means Archer has not reached that potential, therefore, there can be a parallel universe where that Archer did reach that potential.
... Then let me say this: Archer killed Berserker 6 times in Fate. Alone. And at that time, it was strongly hinted that Archer didn't even use his full potential.

How many lives did Shirou take in HF? Black Berserker was already blinded, wounded, and has only a few lives left (after that Excaliblast). HF Shirou traced Nine Lives, but he still couldn't kill him. He couldn't finish Berserker, if it was not for Ilya. What makes you think he can actually defeat Berserker? Fate Berserker (strong, full support from Master, all senses working, all lives intact) >>>> Black Berserker, btw (blinded, wounded, only has few lives left).

6. Saber and Berserker are the strongest of servants, so they are going to have the best of stats. I said "respectable" not godly. The reason I bring Assassin into this is because Assassin is a human just like Emiya. However, Assassin is able to achieve stats that allow him to have above human skills. He even does something that is physically impossible without the help of a noble phantasm or magic. If Assassin, a human, is able to reach stats as high as A, then Emiya, who is untalented, should reach stats as high as at least C.
Yeah? Archer's Agility is C. And it still doesn't meet the requirement. What is there to prove anyway?

8. I am talking about when "they were alive". If they were alive and had stats up the wazoo, then it would be a very chaotic world where one person has the ability to destroy an army. I am not talking about servant v. servant, I am talking about the strength they had when they were ALIVE.
The strength they had wouldn't be too far stretched from when they were alive. That much has been made clear.

10. I'm not talking about heroic spirits, I am comparing to PEOPLE, HUMANS, HOMO SAPIENS. The whole reason I am bringing Assassin, the stats of when human heroes were alive and things like that is because YOU stated the fact that Emiya is at the pinnicle of hard work and is the strongest of what "he can achieve as a human being". But I am bringing in the fact that Assassin, a human, can reach godly speed and reasonable strength. Something that Archer can accomplish, considering he did not reach his full potential. Plus, the pinnicle of hard work does not make you the strongest you can possibly be. It just means you work as hard as you possibly can. Which Shirou did, and became Archer; but alas, did not reach his full potential. So there can be another timeline where Shirou does reach this potential through more time or whatever.
...How many times must I repeat that Shirou himself stated that Archer is the best thing he can be through hard work?

Image

Image

Image

Comparing Archer and Assassin is out of question; they are different individuals, lived in a different era / environment, had different talents, etc, etc.

12. Ok, my sentence was worded badly. I meant that any human can break the limit, including untalented people. What matters is if people actually put the effort to break it or not. And this is not easy. That is why you don't see 20,000 heroes everyday on your way to work. Yes, they can potentially become heroes if they break that limit; however, Emiya can break it. Why? Because humans CAN break the limit. And Emiya, who tries harder than anyone else, can break the limit, he even did something that went against destiny, something that is above normal human limits.
Sorry? If you believe that, then I suggest you replay UBW. Archer didn't get to become a Heroic Spirit because he didn't - couldn't do it. That's why he formed a contract with the World. Archer tried his best, yet he still fail. Why else do you think he become a Counter Guardian?

13. And yes. A theory is called a theory and not a fact for a reason. It cannot be completely proven or disproven depending on the theory. For all we know, Newton's laws might be disproven tomorrow. But it depends on how we take up that EVIDENCE that is based upon BASIC LOGIC. If I actually prove that 2F=ma, would you believe it? It depends, and it depends because of the EVIDENCE that I provide. If I prove for this one solid experiment that 2F=ma, that means that basic physics has to be rethought because F=ma is no longer liable. But the fact that so far, noone has disproven it means that it is more likely for it to be true. The longer a theory is out there in the water, the stronger the theory would become because of the defense against the attacking criticisms. For your Saddam Hussein statement, It is more "there is no concrete evidence" to believe that there are WMDs. Since there is not one shred of evidence, it makes it very hard to believe. But if one day, we found out that Saddam actually had WMDs, then we would look silly for not believing such a thing. But the fact is, so far, no WMDs have been found, and based on the current events, it seems unlikely for Saddam to have WMDs. A theory must have EVIDENCE to be a concrete theory. You have a theory that there can be no Sarcher. So what I am doing is questioning your theory. If your theory is truly solid, than my possibility should be impossible. Your counter arguments did not answer much since I am able to counter back. And you say you want me to provide you something with an even footing? That is what I am doing. Putting about possibilities that seem to have no contradictions with the nasuverse rules. And if you can't provide a contradiction, then that makes one possibility possible and takes down your theory. So yes, this constant exchange of arguments is the only way to do things, unless Nasu comes over here and says "Let there be Sarcher" or "Sarcher will never exist". But even then, he must give a reasonable explanation as to why this and this is true. It would just be easier for him because he can pull shit from his ass for the ambiguous parts the nasuverse and it would still be correct.
As I said, begging the question isn't gonna get you anywhere. You didn't provide a fact from the game, or quote, or side materials that support your theory. You only pointed "what ifs" without giving evidence. That's not called on an even footing.


OK, BIG tl;dr: Archer is the best thing Shirou can achieve through hard work. He had no talent to begin with, and he trained himself to that level.

Archer and Assassin are not heroes. Comparing them to meet a hero's requirement is not valid.
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Unread postby nobaka » April 8th, 2009, 2:51 pm

Shourai wrote:Archer and Assassin are not heroes. Comparing them to meet a hero's requirement is not valid.


Heroic Spirits don't actually need to be 'heroes'. Just renown, it seems.
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 3:05 pm

nobaka wrote:
Shourai wrote:Archer and Assassin are not heroes. Comparing them to meet a hero's requirement is not valid.


Heroic Spirits don't actually need to be 'heroes'. Just renown, it seems.
Yeah, but they have to perform certain acts that "save humanity". Even anti-heroes like Gilles de Reis, who had an evil alignment, did some acts that overall benefit humanity.
Heroic Spirit

An elemental spirit of humanity that is considered a natural phenomenon in itself, Heroic Spirits (英霊 eirei) are beings that accomplished great achievements such as saving the world and, after their death, became the object of worship and lore. As a result, they are placed outside the cycle of transmigration of the soul and ascend to an existence closer to Divine Spirits in order to become a power that protects humanity. Note that despite the origins of the term, they are not bound to the common understanding of the word ?hero?, thus even Heroic Spirits of evil alignment exist.
Archer is not a hero(if he didn't form contract with Alaya). Assassin is a wraith, not a hero, and definitely NOT a true Heroic Spirit.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 3:41 pm

Yeah, you effectively answered my counter questions. You see, In the end, if your theory is truly solid, then the theory will most likely come out on top. But I do believe that, as you say, "begging the question" is effective. The thing is I can ask, but I don't need to provide an answer. The main reason is that the that if my questions could not be answered through basic logic and evidence, then it shows that there is an inconsistency with the subject and something is wrong with the subject or there hasn't been enough research put into the subject. If the theory is solid, it will provide an answer or it will provide a reason why the basic reasoning of the question is wrong. That is pretty much the basis of the Socratic method of teaching. Through the certain arguments and questions, you are able to correct inconsistencies that I had of the nasuverse. I don't really care if I am correct or not (I actually prefer that Archer can't be Sarcher), I just want to find out if there is the possibility.

But there are still a few things I would like to comment on.

1. Its true that there are no references to the three kingdoms era in the nasuverse. But with the current understanding of the nasuverse, people should be able to piece together how strong they would be. Of course there is no way certain way to tell if the 3k servants would be as strong as Saber or Lancelot. For starters, there are the legends of the 3k, there are hundreds of them. Cao Cao, Guan Yu, Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang and more; anyone of them has a rich history and have many legends which display their battle prowess and heroics. The magic in this age, although not as strong as the age of the Gods, should be as strong or stronger than Arturia's time, for older magic tend to stronger than current ones. The whole 3k thing was just a side note to help me give examples as to how there are many many legends in the history of the world, all of them with thousands of people who are extremely powerful.

The main point I was trying to make with the 3k and other legends was that those warriors would still achieve the status of heroes but their physical stats for when they were alive is inconceivable to the people right now. In olden times, were people just naturally stronger to the point that each living hero can actually match a servant through stats? So I was going by the basis that Arturia had stats in the A rank while she was alive, and there were people that can actually keep up with her in the battlefield; otherwise, she might as well single handedly destroy all her enemies. And the people that can keep up with her are still humans. So that means that humans can technically reach A, B, or C stats when they were alive. So if live (non-servant) heroes can reach those stats, then humans, as a species has the potential to reach those stats. I didn't say anything about breaking human limits at this point. I am saying that if humans can be that strong, then Archer can reach that level if he hasn't reached his full potential.

3. I didn't say that you didn't say that there couldn't be human servants. I was just stating the fact there can be human servants.

6. You ask what I was trying to prove. With the earlier reasoning, I was trying to present the possibility that Archer's stats can go higher than it already is. That the New Archer can reach Shirou's unlocked potential and achieve greater stats. I make the comparison to Assassin because Assassin is one of the more human servants. If one of the "human" servants is able to reach stats as high as A, then it should be possible for the other "human" servant to be reach that potential. I worded the last part a bit strange so I can see why you ask that question. I put in the last part of the last sentence to compare the untalented Emiya with the talented Sasaki Kojirou. I meant to say that Emiya's stats could at least reach C rank. I am saying that Archer's stats can still be potentially higher; therefore, a new version of Archer can reach that strength that the previous one could not.

8. That is the point. If servants had the strength they had as servants, than that truly makes it a terrifying world where each legend has handfulls of people that can potentially destroy armies and countries. If one human has the power to destroy an army, than it says something about a human being's potential.

12. He did do something that was against destiny. He made a contract with the world to save people destined to die. Since he is that person that made the contract, he is the person responsible for saving their lives and defying destiny. He became a counter guardian out of this contract and became something more, although, it just isn't the life that he always dreamed of having.

13. Pretty much what I said earlier.
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 4:08 pm

TheRedArcher wrote:
1. Its true that there are no references to the three kingdoms era in the nasuverse. But with the current understanding of the nasuverse, people should be able to piece together how strong they would be. Of course there is no way certain way to tell if the 3k servants would be as strong as Saber or Lancelot. For starters, there are the legends of the 3k, there are hundreds of them. Cao Cao, Guan Yu, Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang and more; anyone of them has a rich history and have many legends which display their battle prowess and heroics. The magic in this age, although not as strong as the age of the Gods, should be as strong or stronger than Arturia's time, for older magic tend to stronger than current ones. The whole 3k thing was just a side note to help me give examples as to how there are many many legends in the history of the world, all of them with thousands of people who are extremely powerful.

The main point I was trying to make with the 3k and other legends was that those warriors would still achieve the status of heroes but their physical stats for when they were alive is inconceivable to the people right now. In olden times, were people just naturally stronger to the point that each living hero can actually match a servant through stats? So I was going by the basis that Arturia had stats in the A rank while she was alive, and there were people that can actually keep up with her in the battlefield; otherwise, she might as well single handedly destroy all her enemies. And the people that can keep up with her are still humans. So that means that humans can technically reach A, B, or C stats when they were alive. So if live (non-servant) heroes can reach those stats, then humans, as a species has the potential to reach those stats. I didn't say anything about breaking human limits at this point. I am saying that if humans can be that strong, then Archer can reach that level if he hasn't reached his full potential.
Then what's the point of a hero? They are called such because they performed feats beyond human capabilities.

And yes, Saber when she was alive is probably even more powerful than Saber under Shirou. And what makes you think there must (must. mandatory.) be a man who can keep up with these heroes in a battlefield? That's why they stand on top of lifeless bodies of their enemies - because there simply isn't anyone who can match them.

6. You ask what I was trying to prove. With the earlier reasoning, I was trying to present the possibility that Archer's stats can go higher than it already is. That the New Archer can reach Shirou's unlocked potential and achieve greater stats. I make the comparison to Assassin because Assassin is one of the more human servants. If one of the "human" servants is able to reach stats as high as A, then it should be possible for the other "human" servant to be reach that potential. I worded the last part a bit strange so I can see why you ask that question. I put in the last part of the last sentence to compare the untalented Emiya with the talented Sasaki Kojirou. I meant to say that Emiya's stats could at least reach C rank. I am saying that Archer's stats can still be potentially higher; therefore, a new version of Archer can reach that strength that the previous one could not.
And I have said that comparing Assassin and Archer is out of question; they are different people, born with different talents, lived a different life, lived in a different era, etc, etc...

Also... *sighs* let's just say for the sake of xth repetition; Shirou himself said that Archer had maximized his potential. That is the best version of Emiya Shirou that can be achieved through hard work.

8. That is the point. If servants had the strength they had as servants, than that truly makes it a terrifying world where each legend has handfulls of people that can potentially destroy armies and countries. If one human has the power to destroy an army, than it says something about a human being's potential.
Must I repeat myself that not all heroes are humans? And that they have Noble Phantasms? Noble Phantasm is one of the most vital points of a hero. Some heroes are powerless without their Noble Phantasms. That much is clear.

If a human can destroy an entire army, it doesn't have to be because of his own physical capabilities. It might be that he has a super-strong weapon, employs a brilliant combat strategy, or such.

12. He did do something that was against destiny. He made a contract with the world to save people destined to die. Since he is that person that made the contract, he is the person responsible for saving their lives and defying destiny. He became a counter guardian out of this contract and became something more, although, it just isn't the life that he always dreamed of having.
But that didn't make him a hero, did it? His "miracle" is still not enough for him to be elevated to the status of Heroic Spirit.

BIG FAT tl;dr:

1. Heroes are called such because they are able to perform feats no other people can. Heroes are beyond human capabilities. Heroes achieve their ranks thanks to either their own body, their Noble Phantasms, or both.

2. Archer is NOT a hero. He FAILED to become a hero. Thus he formed a contract with the World and was elevated to the status of Counter Guardian.
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Unread postby sabata2 » April 8th, 2009, 4:48 pm

Red's is better because it logically follows to that conclusion. Yours doesn't.

And the "proof" you gave doesn't negate his claim nor prove yours. You've only proven that Rin messed up, which was what both arguments are based on.

You have yet to prove that Rin's mistake COULD NEVER have resulted in a different mistake in Archer.

Also, knowing how much Archer places his power on a pedestal, how can you not also argue that he thinks the lost power, that Red is arguing could have happened, is trivial?
"Oh I'm soo good going down a letter rank in each stat is only trivial, I'll still kick Berzerker's ass."

You may fling around a larger vocabulary than most and know your junk, but you can't win here unless you can prove to me and Red that the result of Rin's mistake is ONLY Archer's memory.


You're stuck with the defensive game and from what I see, you are placing waaay too much trust in the words of two characters who are extremely arrogant.
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Unread postby Inverted » April 8th, 2009, 5:13 pm

Heroes are called such because they are able to perform feats no other people can. Heroes are beyond human capabilities. Heroes achieve their ranks thanks to either their own body, their Noble Phantasms, or both.

There is one more big factor .They must be considered objects of fame or infamy, praised or feared. There may very well be heroes with crappy stats as long as they are very famous in the legends .
Shourai wrote:Archer is NOT a hero. He FAILED to become a hero. Thus he formed a contract with the World and was elevated to the status of Counter Guardian.

Counter-Guardians ARE Heroic Spirits.They are Heroes who used worlds help to perform something and the world got a Hero in compensation. Oh and Joan of Arc is also a CG.

And BTW its only since 3rd heaven's feel that not so "heroic" spirits like Giles de Rais were able to be summoned.

Also the reason why nobody can be a hero nowadays.
Fuyuki wiki wrote:Of course, since there are so many crises going on in the modern era and being solved in the blink of an eye, nowadays nobody is really fit in the grand body of humanity to be called a "hero", at least in respects to those from the past.

Basically there are heroes everywhere unlike in the past.The fame gets dissipated and becomes worthless.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 5:22 pm

The question is not about whether Archer is a hero or not, it is whether Archer can get the necessary stat boost for the Saber requirement. I am talking SOLELY about stats and physical capabilities. That is it. I don't care about how strong a NP or how this person is stronger than this person. The whole point of my points about heroes and humans is to define the limits of people and whether Emiya can reach it or not. You have proved some of my possibilities to be false. But only some. You have to prove all of my possibilities to be false. BUT, you asked for my reasoning in certain points and I gave it.

Possibility 1- Archer got messed up stats due to his summoning. But Archer's words are put into question whether he is telling the complete truth or not.
Possibility 2- Archer did not reach his full potential. Archer is the embodiment of Emiya's hard work. Archer is not the strongest he can possibly be since strength comes from something more than hard work. Emiya could have experienced an event that made his physical capabilities better, just like how HF Shirou was able to get more physical strength. Since HF Shirou shows that potential to get stronger, Archer's chances of getting strong Shirous is not impossible. So we have to find out what the human's potential is and see how that correlates with Emiya's potential and limits and see if he can surpass it.

More comments

1. There is no point of a hero, it is just a title. I don't care if they were called heroes or not but whether they were human or not. I am talking about humans that can become powerful to the point that they can be compared to servants. Humans can break limits while not being heroes. You said so yourself that Emiya and Sasaki are not heroes. But Emiya went against destiny and broke a human limit, and Sasaki broke the rules of physics which is above human limits.

When I talk of others on the battlefield, I mean other powerful warriors, like the knights of the round table and other villains and what not. Let's just say Arturia is the only hero on the battlefield. Then it would be similar to playing Dynasty Warrior on easy. Pretty much one person has the power to kill over a thousand people and not get a scratch. Don't even have to use your musou (NP). There wouldn't even be a need for war since both sides know they have the ultimate power that can literally destroy their army with just physical skills. This is not the case because there were warriors that can at least fight against Arturia. If someone was able to even think about fighting Saber, then their physical capabilities must be capable to some degree. So if the I am not saying that everyone is a freakin powerful person. But that there are many many warriors that have the power of servants scattered across time and it is strange that most of them are in the past. And during each legend, there seem to be a lot of warriors that can keep up with the hero if they were to fight against him or her. And most of these warriors are still human.

6. You asked me for my reasoning. I gave it. I agree with your earlier response to 6. I repeat. Since you asked for my reasoning, I gave it. That is why I mentioned "With the earlier reasoning".

8. I'm talking solely about the stats. Not about Noble Phantasms. If Berserker is able to carve is initials into the pavement, then what does it mean for people with strength of B or speed of A or whatever. Using the same simile, It would pretty much be like playing Dynasty Warriors on easy. Yes, some would be powerless against other servants without their NP. I already said that this is not about servant v. servant. And once again, not about NP. If they were up against people, It would be very hard pressed for the person to win. BUT there are some human servants, which means that those human servants had servant stats when they were alive, when they haven't become heroes and recorded within Alaya. This says something about human potential, not necessarily hero potential.

12. It doesn't matter if Archer is a hero or not, we are talking about whether Archer can be Sarcher, not whether he is a hero or not. In earlier posts I use the term hero for Archer, but I pretty much meant servant when referring to Archer. I am sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way, but even so, it doesn't matter. The title hero is just not important here. I use the title hero when comparing humans to heroes. But whether Archer is a hero or not does not really change what his stats are. The point of this point is whether humans can break the limit and Archer did so by defying destiny.
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Unread postby Inverted » April 8th, 2009, 9:27 pm

In Kojirou's case his 'A' agility takes into account Tsubame Gaeshi too . So normal agility is probably lesser .Also don't forget he is wraith connected to Ryoudoji temple backed up years of legends .He may not be the real Kojirou but he plays the role of Kojirou .Not to mention the war takes place in Japan.Hence he is may not be the best example.

"Archer" or in this case Emiya getting higher stats may not be completely impossible .But it will require him to become something different like a DA .Living as a DA for centuries may very well boost his stats .The more inhuman he becomes the stronger he will get.

Also there are anomalies like Giles De Rais .So it may not require a stat boost , just the right situation and circumstance.
*shrug*
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Unread postby ReidE96 » April 8th, 2009, 10:32 pm

Shourai wrote:Arturia isn't human; she is a dragon incarnation.

Read the Arthurian legend. King Arthur is the bastard son of King Uther Pendragon and Ygerna (or Igraine, depending on the version you read), who was the wife of one of Uther's knights. The 'dragon' aspect is never mentioned anywhere in the Arthurian legend, and is likely from the Dragon part of the surname.

Shourai wrote:You know... rather than judging why an argument is better because it sounds better (to you), why don't we look at the fact?

Archer himself said that it's only trivial things that became a bit vague.

No, he thinks that's all. And if you ever take a look at how a logical argument works, you'll find that sabata2 is right. Your reasoning has to work, and his 'therefore' thing makes very clear how the arguments were presented, illustrating the logical flaw. Whether they were intended to come across that way, I don't know.

4. But this shows that HF Shirou was able to do something that Archer could not do, defeat Berserker. HF Shirou has done something that has "surpassed" the original. So that means that Archer still has more room to grow. I am talking about the POTENTIAL of Archer, not really about how strong HF Shirou is. If a YOUNGER self can achieve something greater than Archer can in the prime of his life, that means Archer has not reached that potential, therefore, there can be a parallel universe where that Archer did reach that potential.
... Then let me say this: Archer killed Berserker 6 times in Fate. Alone. And at that time, it was strongly hinted that Archer didn't even use his full potential.

How many lives did Shirou take in HF? Black Berserker was already blinded, wounded, and has only a few lives left (after that Excaliblast). HF Shirou traced Nine Lives, but he still couldn't kill him. He couldn't finish Berserker, if it was not for Ilya. What makes you think he can actually defeat Berserker? Fate Berserker (strong, full support from Master, all senses working, all lives intact) >>>> Black Berserker, btw (blinded, wounded, only has few lives left).


10 lives (only 2 down), and an infinitely greater and more powerful mana source, plus him still thinking he's fighting to protect Ilya until he actually sees her? No, Black Berserker >>>>>>>>>> Fate/UBW/HF(non black) Berserker.

The strength they had wouldn't be too far stretched from when they were alive. That much has been made clear.

Then why can't Hercules and Gilgamesh destroy the entire world with both arms tied behind their backs?

13. And yes. A theory is called a theory and not a fact for a reason. It cannot be completely proven or disproven depending on the theory. For all we know, Newton's laws might be disproven tomorrow. But it depends on how we take up that EVIDENCE that is based upon BASIC LOGIC. If I actually prove that 2F=ma, would you believe it? It depends, and it depends because of the EVIDENCE that I provide. If I prove for this one solid experiment that 2F=ma, that means that basic physics has to be rethought because F=ma is no longer liable. But the fact that so far, noone has disproven it means that it is more likely for it to be true. The longer a theory is out there in the water, the stronger the theory would become because of the defense against the attacking criticisms. For your Saddam Hussein statement, It is more "there is no concrete evidence" to believe that there are WMDs. Since there is not one shred of evidence, it makes it very hard to believe. But if one day, we found out that Saddam actually had WMDs, then we would look silly for not believing such a thing. But the fact is, so far, no WMDs have been found, and based on the current events, it seems unlikely for Saddam to have WMDs. A theory must have EVIDENCE to be a concrete theory. You have a theory that there can be no Sarcher. So what I am doing is questioning your theory. If your theory is truly solid, than my possibility should be impossible. Your counter arguments did not answer much since I am able to counter back. And you say you want me to provide you something with an even footing? That is what I am doing. Putting about possibilities that seem to have no contradictions with the nasuverse rules. And if you can't provide a contradiction, then that makes one possibility possible and takes down your theory. So yes, this constant exchange of arguments is the only way to do things, unless Nasu comes over here and says "Let there be Sarcher" or "Sarcher will never exist". But even then, he must give a reasonable explanation as to why this and this is true. It would just be easier for him because he can pull shit from his ass for the ambiguous parts the nasuverse and it would still be correct.
As I said, begging the question isn't gonna get you anywhere. You didn't provide a fact from the game, or quote, or side materials that support your theory. You only pointed "what ifs" without giving evidence. That's not called on an even footing.[/spoil]

You don't seem to understand how proofs work. If you want to make your case certain, you must eliminate ALL doubt. Ask any physicist you like - if someone came out with a repeatable, verifiable experiment which demonstrated we all live inside a giant panda, then everything we thought until now would be chucked and replaced with that, if and until someone could do an experiment that showed otherwise. Yes, it's an extreme example, but it's still true. The model CAN and WILL be changed to fit the experiment, because the experiment is unquestionable. If you want your theory (in this case, that there can be no Sarcher) to be accepted as fact, you must prove it. To disprove it, only one counterexample is needed. If I could create a triangle which showed Pythagoras theorum as wrong, it would be chucked. Infinite proof is needed, and cannot exist in this case, so although weighing up all possibilities it is highly improbable that Sarcher would exist, there is nothing you can do to entirely disprove the possibility. Yeah, I do maths and physics.

Archer and Assassin are not heroes. Comparing them to meet a hero's requirement is not valid.

Wrong. Look at the character page for Archer.

"...who became a hero". Doesn't get more conclusive than that. Heroic Spirit Emiya is a hero, so can be a Servant.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a prick here. Incidentally, why is it only you who's arguing against the idea of Sarcher? Do you not want it to be true?
ReidE96
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