Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 30th, 2009, 12:21 am

nobaka wrote:I don't think Shirou himself can trace abilities along with weapons. I think that's just the GARm. Shirou on his own just traces the weapon.
It's in Fate. :)
Shirou traced Caliburn along with its memories and abilities.
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Unread postby nobaka » March 30th, 2009, 12:56 am

Kikuchi wrote:
nobaka wrote:I don't think Shirou himself can trace abilities along with weapons. I think that's just the GARm. Shirou on his own just traces the weapon.
It's in Fate. :)
Shirou traced Caliburn along with its memories and abilities.


Yeah, but I was talking about like when he traced Berserker's chunk of rock, he also traced the physical strength to be able to wield it. Separate from the weapon's abilities, and the tracing modifying his own body is what I meant.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 30th, 2009, 3:05 pm

I think the traced weapon influences the wielder. The weapon's history and power helps Shirou fight by guiding his movements. Its like trying to walk a dog (the weapon) but the dog weighs 500 pounds and going at 30 mph. The dog walker (Shirou) can probably control minute movements but cannot control it entirely and is just being dragged along with the dog. But the dog can't go out without the owner taking him out on the street. And if the dog is experienced (rich history), the dog will know where to go. So even though the dog walker can't really control the dog, as long the dog knows where to go, the dog can just drag the owner along. But doing so also hurts the walker because his face is being dragged in the pavement. So the better the walker's physical condition is, the better the walker can control the dog and not get hurt. But in Shirou's case, his body is not up to par with the weapons that he traces which is why he is always getting extremely hurt or just loses (unless someone is beside him and can help him control the weapon).
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » April 5th, 2009, 5:02 pm

I agree with you, the VN also gave me the impression that Shirou was not wielding the NP, but rather the NP dragged Shirou along.

Think about the Caliburn scene. We all know for a fact that Berserker can only be damaged by a rank A attack or NP. Shirou did not invoke Caliburn's name (I don't recall him even knowing Caliburn's name), but a mere slash severed Berserker's arm. Breaching God Hand means the attack is at least rank A. Do you think a puny Shirou can pump out strength even remotely close to rank A? The only explanation is that the technique originated from the sword's memory, so essentially Caliburn executed the attack the way Sabre did when she was alive, presumably more powerful than as a servant under Shirou-sorry-excuse-of-a-master (Caliburn was lost when Sabre was still alive).
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » April 5th, 2009, 9:31 pm

Wait I thought that the only way to inflict dammage on Berserker was for a NP having a Rank of B or better. So That would mean that Caliburn must of been either A to A+ in Rank, but since his trancing ability tends to knock the NP down a full Rank it drops down to a B or B+. Although Saber did assist him in the final blow so the rank may of been bosted due to te blade being afiliated with Saber at one point and quite posably bosted it up to somewhere into the EX rank. The only NP he could never trace was Ea that Gil had. It's porbably because there weren't any well kept records of that NP at all.
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Unread postby that one guy » April 5th, 2009, 9:55 pm

I thought it was because Ea isn't from Earth.
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Unread postby abscess » April 5th, 2009, 10:27 pm

that one guy wrote:I thought it was because Ea isn't from Earth.
Me too.

Besides, wasn't the weapon's lore in the weapon? If that was the case, if Ea was made from Earth-stuff, he could replicate it.
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Unread postby Tessara » April 5th, 2009, 11:23 pm

that one guy wrote:I thought it was because Ea isn't from Earth.


Wha? I realize this is somewhat derailing things, but this is the first time I've ever heard of that. Where does the idea come from? Did I miss something while reading Fate/stay night?
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Unread postby Shourai » April 6th, 2009, 12:37 am

Tessara wrote:
that one guy wrote:I thought it was because Ea isn't from Earth.


Wha? I realize this is somewhat derailing things, but this is the first time I've ever heard of that. Where does the idea come from? Did I miss something while reading Fate/stay night?
It's in UBW last fight, Shirou vs Gilgamesh. Gil pulled Ea to show off, and just like he expected, Shirou cannot understand it at all because Ea wasn't from Earth. Even the Wiki entry confirms this.



Fuyuki wrote:
The substances involved in the creation of Ea are probably not inside it.


TM Wiki wrote:
The material components of the sword have no origin on the mortal plane, and thus, Emiya Shirou is unable to reproduce it through projection.


It's not a matter of kept record. Shirou can read every sword's structure, components, and history by merely seeing it. Yet, he cannot trace Ea.
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Unread postby Chaos Chaud » April 6th, 2009, 2:58 pm

Shourai wrote:
Tessara wrote:
that one guy wrote:I thought it was because Ea isn't from Earth.


Wha? I realize this is somewhat derailing things, but this is the first time I've ever heard of that. Where does the idea come from? Did I miss something while reading Fate/stay night?
It's in UBW last fight, Shirou vs Gilgamesh. Gil pulled Ea to show off, and just like he expected, Shirou cannot understand it at all because Ea wasn't from Earth. Even the Wiki entry confirms this.



Fuyuki wrote:
The substances involved in the creation of Ea are probably not inside it.


TM Wiki wrote:
The material components of the sword have no origin on the mortal plane, and thus, Emiya Shirou is unable to reproduce it through projection.


It's not a matter of kept record. Shirou can read every sword's structure, components, and history by merely seeing it. Yet, he cannot trace Ea.


Well, that SURE makes sense, but I probably woud never think about it...
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Unread postby ReidE96 » April 7th, 2009, 1:54 pm

And here I go... first post... debate thread... how very like me...

On the topic of the original question, "Can Archer be summoned as Saber?", the answer is a resounding NO, because he's Archer. His stats and abilities fit the Archer class. However, to answer the related question of "Can Heroic Spirit Emiya be summoned as Saber?", the answer is YES. Why? He uses swords. It's that simple. By pulling him from the throne of heroes, his stats will fit the Saber class. I think (yes, assumptions here, but I'll try and explain the reasoning behind them) that all heroes are extremely limited when summoned as Servants, rather than when called in another capacity.Gilgamesh in mythology killed the beast of the gods. Hercules was a half-god whilst alive, and a full god after death. Considering they can't instantly destroy the planet when summoned as Servants, they must be weakened. The same, therefore, holds true for Emiya. If summoned as Saber, he would be a much more capable melee fighter, and his ability with bows would be removed, or if not, greatly diminished. I suspect the only reason Emiya and Gilgamesh as Archers could use swords is because in real-life medieval times, archers carried shortswords which they used for fighting if folk got too close. Kanshou and Bakuya are stated as being shortswords. Ea isn't stated as such, but just looking at the images in-game it looks shortsword length. Particularly if you play Fate/Unlimited Codes, it looks most definitely shortsword length.

As to tracing physical abilities, I think the answer is no. Shirou was capable of wielding the rock sword due to Archer's ability to do so. Archer being a heroic spirit, such a weight would be nothing. The pain and damage to self come from using Archer's arm - he can't cope with the sheer levels of mana flowing into him. Archer never traces abilities from others, all Shirou is doing is taking Archer's ability from his arm. Same as how he could sprint several kilometres effortlessly, and why he thought he could take the jump from Einzbern castle. Having part of a Servant's ability is what allowed Shirou to go beyond his limits. Using that ability killed him.

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Unread postby Shourai » April 7th, 2009, 3:17 pm

ReidE96 wrote:And here I go... first post... debate thread... how very like me...

On the topic of the original question, "Can Archer be summoned as Saber?", the answer is a resounding NO, because he's Archer. His stats and abilities fit the Archer class. However, to answer the related question of "Can Heroic Spirit Emiya be summoned as Saber?", the answer is YES. Why? He uses swords. It's that simple. By pulling him from the throne of heroes, his stats will fit the Saber class. I think (yes, assumptions here, but I'll try and explain the reasoning behind them) that all heroes are extremely limited when summoned as Servants, rather than when called in another capacity.Gilgamesh in mythology killed the beast of the gods. Hercules was a half-god whilst alive, and a full god after death. Considering they can't instantly destroy the planet when summoned as Servants, they must be weakened. The same, therefore, holds true for Emiya. If summoned as Saber, he would be a much more capable melee fighter, and his ability with bows would be removed, or if not, greatly diminished. I suspect the only reason Emiya and Gilgamesh as Archers could use swords is because in real-life medieval times, archers carried shortswords which they used for fighting if folk got too close. Kanshou and Bakuya are stated as being shortswords. Ea isn't stated as such, but just looking at the images in-game it looks shortsword length. Particularly if you play Fate/Unlimited Codes, it looks most definitely shortsword length
This theory has been tested before. Heroic Spirit cannot be too far away (stronger or weaker) from the condition when they were alive, except their pseudo-immortality (being a spiritual vessel and stuffs). An already strong hero will stay strong, and a weak hero will stay weak *looks at Avenger*.

So, no Archer in Saber class. Class are merely vessels, containers to hold them based on their status and abilities when they were alive. They cannot grant a hero more or less strength (maybe a little adjustments here and there, but that would not be too far stretched from what they truly are), besides class-specific abilities (Mad Enhancement, Independent Action, Magic Resistance, etc, etc). They were assigned to classes based on what they are, not because they were assigned to a class then they would be able to perform their abilities based on their classes. Heroic Spirit Emiya was proficient with both bow and sword, that much has been made clear.

And it's not like he will have some kind of demonic sword technique if he's assigned to another class. Even Shirou himself stated (in Archer vs Assassin fight) that "it's the pinnacle that can be reached through hard work, that's why it suits me the best".

Fuyuki wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name. Whereas oracles and kuchiyose require the spirit to possess the speaker in order for them to temporarily exist in this era (in other words a container), a class is used as the container instead. Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.

Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
By default, Archer's status won't fulfill the requirement of being a Saber.

tl;dr : note that it is NOT because a Servant is assigned to a class that s/he gains / loses strength. Servants are assigned to a class because they FIT BOTH the status requirement and abilities possessed when they were alive. So that's it, no Sarcher.

Another point to note: Archer was summoned under Rin; that means he is closest to the strongest condition possible. Yet his status are still crappy. Compared to Gil, who is under Kotomine (who is a crappy Master, btw), Archer is still far below Gil, even though they are both Archers. So it's not a mater of class. It depends on the hero himself. Archer is a crappy hero, and he will stay like that.
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Unread postby Chaos Chaud » April 7th, 2009, 3:36 pm

Only asking, doesn't gil feed on human souls? That way he could supply what Kotomine couldn't give him, right?
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Unread postby Shourai » April 7th, 2009, 3:49 pm

Chaos Chaud wrote:Only asking, doesn't gil feed on human souls? That way he could supply what Kotomine couldn't give him, right?
Yeah, but his status is still the same as in the end of Fate/Zero, where he reformed his contract with Kotomine.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » April 7th, 2009, 3:59 pm

Also, if you noticed that not only is Gil somewhat skilled with swords he tends to use his weapons as projectiles. Archer is the same as Gil, but he can mix it up with projectiles and close quarters combat with his shell of NP of course. Even though they are one Rank lower then Gil's at least Archer knows how to use them properly.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 7th, 2009, 5:44 pm

It kinda sucks that Archer has crappy stats but I think that fits Shirou perfectly. With hard work and determination, he actually achieved something more than what he can do. So Archer's stats truly match his role as the underdog.

Since we are talking about Gilgamesh and Archer, I have this question. Why doesn't Archer use a pseudo Gate of Babylon of his own? He can clearly shoot out weapons. He even uses a rain of weapons to kill Caster in UBW. But it seems strange that he never does that again. Even if the weapons are weaker, they should still be pretty strong considering that they are pseudo noble phantasms. Even if Archer's collection isn't as vast as Gilgamesh's, it should still be pretty powerful. There is also the chance that there is a noble phantasm in Archer's collection that might be super effective to the opponent. Of course Archer's "Gate of Babylon" will never reach Gil's level but it should still be very effective.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » April 7th, 2009, 6:45 pm

You know now that you brought that up he did that move before activating his RM. Although if you look at his move in his RM in Fate/Unlimited Codes he actually pulls off this move set.
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Unread postby ReidE96 » April 7th, 2009, 10:36 pm

If you look at the UBW finisher in Codes, you'll also notice the developers were extremely lazy XD Use the move and pause when his opponent is lying in the ground, full of swords. The only weapons are ones used by other characters. So there's some Kaladbolgs, Caliburns, there's even a number of Eas, which doesn't even make any sense. Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon is similar, but Archer needs to use 300% mana bar in order to finish the chants, then have full in order to go blade works, which lasts a few seconds. But at least you get awesome music :D (my favourite Emiya remix, though the original is still the best).

Anyway, what's to say that Emiya couldn't have different stats if summoned as Saber? Surely being summoned as Archer would rejig his own 'stats' to fit the Archer class, diminishing defense and suchlike. Couldn't something similar happen? (Yes, I'm an Archer fanboy :))
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Unread postby Shourai » April 8th, 2009, 12:49 am

TheRedArcher wrote:Since we are talking about Gilgamesh and Archer, I have this question. Why doesn't Archer use a pseudo Gate of Babylon of his own? He can clearly shoot out weapons. He even uses a rain of weapons to kill Caster in UBW. But it seems strange that he never does that again. Even if the weapons are weaker, they should still be pretty strong considering that they are pseudo noble phantasms. Even if Archer's collection isn't as vast as Gilgamesh's, it should still be pretty powerful. There is also the chance that there is a noble phantasm in Archer's collection that might be super effective to the opponent. Of course Archer's "Gate of Babylon" will never reach Gil's level but it should still be very effective.
Didn't you notice that tracing and hurling NPs like Gil costs Archer prana? GoB, on the other hand, doesn't cost him any prana since the weapons are already "there"; Gil doesn't need to trace them or whatsoever.

The only way if Archer wants to use sword barrages like Gil is to activate UBW. There, he doesn't need to worry about prana cost for tracing. But then again, the prana upkeep to maintain the Reality Marble is still a pain in the ass. Not to mention the 7 lines of chant is slow as hell. So... yeah. It's highly inefficient to use sword storm from UBW than it is from GoB.

Anyway, what's to say that Emiya couldn't have different stats if summoned as Saber? Surely being summoned as Archer would rejig his own 'stats' to fit the Archer class, diminishing defense and suchlike. Couldn't something similar happen? (Yes, I'm an Archer fanboy :))
I already stated the reason why being summoned in a different class wouldn't make you much stronger. Status adjustment doesn't mean addition or subtraction, only substitution.

Fuyuki wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name. Whereas oracles and kuchiyose require the spirit to possess the speaker in order for them to temporarily exist in this era (in other words a container), a class is used as the container instead. Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.

Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
It doesn't matter - if you are a crappy hero from the beginning, no Saber for you. It's as simple as that.

So... sorry, but there can be no Sarcher. :P
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » April 8th, 2009, 4:27 am

Shourai wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:Since we are talking about Gilgamesh and Archer, I have this question. Why doesn't Archer use a pseudo Gate of Babylon of his own? He can clearly shoot out weapons. He even uses a rain of weapons to kill Caster in UBW. But it seems strange that he never does that again. Even if the weapons are weaker, they should still be pretty strong considering that they are pseudo noble phantasms. Even if Archer's collection isn't as vast as Gilgamesh's, it should still be pretty powerful. There is also the chance that there is a noble phantasm in Archer's collection that might be super effective to the opponent. Of course Archer's "Gate of Babylon" will never reach Gil's level but it should still be very effective.
Didn't you notice that tracing and hurling NPs like Gil costs Archer prana? GoB, on the other hand, doesn't cost him any prana since the weapons are already "there"; Gil doesn't need to trace them or whatsoever.


I agree with your reasons as to why Archer does not use a pseudo Gate of Babylon. But that brings up another question. Archer does use a pseudo Gate of Babylon. How and why in the world did Archer kill Caster in that particular fashion? If it cost so much prana, then why use a rain of weapons, each using up a certain amount of prana which Archer does not have a lot of. It seems like a stupid choice to kill his source of prana with a move that consumes a lot of prana. And I don't recall Archer using his UBW when summoning his weapons, he just did simple tracing and projection indicated by his words, "trace on". Either Archer has a reason to kill Caster with a pseudo Gate of Babylon or he is just very bad at planning for the future.

As for the Sarcher stuff. That is NOT particularly true that Archer can never can be summoned as Saber. The main point to answering this question as to whether Archer can be summoned in Saber is WHO is being summoned. Archer is a particularly strange servant for he is from the future. But which future is he from? Is he from a parallel universe or the same universe? If Archer is from the same universe, then that means that EVERYTHING that Shirou experiences is what Archer experienced. So Archer should know that it is impossible to kill Shirou for Archer is still alive. And the fact that Shirou and Archer became entirely two different people also does not make sense because Archer should have went through the exact same change that Shirou did in his lifetime. So I conclude that Archer is from a separate but similar parallel universe, there is already confirmation on the existence of parallel universes in the nasuverse. So if Archer is from a parallel universe, then that means that there are other Archers from other parallel universes and they have a chance to be summoned in the Grail war for they are counter guardians. Although there is a chance that Archer might not be counter-guardian, that is only considering all possible Archers in existence. We are only looking at Archers who had a similar history. And there is also a chance that one of them has the necessary stats for the Saber class since he happened to do the "right" training at the "right" time. But in the 5th war, it is impossible that a different Archer has come out because of the fact that Rin summoned him. She will always attract the Archer that is the "closest" to her and that Archer has the limited stats that he has now. His current stats cannot possibly go any higher because he is with Rin, one of the best masters in the war (If he was under Shirou, his stats would probably be rank E throughout).

With this, I think it is dependent on the summoner whether Sarcher can be summoned or not. Depending on the summoner, he can "possibly" get an Archer with the "right" stats to be summoned as a Saber. But that is rather unlikely for the grail is only using Archers from similar universes and the chance of getting that Archer is probably close to 1/10000. The reason for this small percentage is because the history of the Archers are somewhat similar because they are similar to the current universe. So for an Archer with good stats would be the odd one out. So Archer has a chance to be Sarcher, just not very likely. And in the 5th war, it is downright impossible.

but then again...

Sarcher?
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