Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 4:28 am

Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class? His weapons consists of swords except for a select few and his primary weapons seems to be a pair of short swords. His Reality Marble is even titled Unlimited BLADE works. I wonder if Rin could have summoned Archer if she summoned him on the right time.
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Re: Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 4:42 am

TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class? His weapons consists of swords except for a select few and his primary weapons seems to be a pair of short swords. His Reality Marble is even titled Unlimited BLADE works. I wonder if Rin could have summoned Archer if she summoned him on the right time.
His status will not permit it.
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Re: Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 4:47 am

Shourai wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class? His weapons consists of swords except for a select few and his primary weapons seems to be a pair of short swords. His Reality Marble is even titled Unlimited BLADE works. I wonder if Rin could have summoned Archer if she summoned him on the right time.
His status will not permit it.


But status fluctuates depending on the master. For example, Saber's status is all over the place because of her various masters. So that means that it is difficult to gauge a servant's TRUE servants stats (sorry, typo). So how do you know that Archer's status does not permit it?
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Re: Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 4:57 am

TheRedArcher wrote:But status fluctuates depending on the master. For example, Saber's status is all over the place because of her various masters. So that means that it is difficult to gauge a servant's TRUE servants. So how do you know that Archer's status does not permit it?
Status is pretty much a representation of what the hero is during his / her life. Rin Saber is the one closest to the real Arthur. Remember, Archer was still crappy even when under Rin. Gilgamesh was still better than him stat-wise under Kotomine. Rin's potential as a Master surpasses that of Kotomine by far.

Even though Archer had received a strength boost from Alaya, he is basically just a crappy human being. His status just won't let it.

Fuyuki wrote:Mana/maryoku involvement in Servants - how faithfully the materalized Heroic Spirit can make use of the powers he/she had back when he/she was alive.
There's a note in the Black Saber description implying that it's not so much the legendary interpretation and embellishment of her powers that were being reenacted, but the actual powers/stats that she had back when she was alive. And the main difference between Black Saber was that she did receive actual flesh from the contaminated Grail as well as an immense load of Mana meaning that she could be greater than what she was back when she was alive, which I'm interpreting to mean...
Black Saber > Arthur = Rin Saber >>> Shirou Saber.

What I'm trying to get at is that in the transition from Heroic Spirit to Servant, information can only be interpreted (aka filtered) using the information that survives in "history" and the basic archetypes provided by the classes. Legends with no actual "historical" truth won't add anything.


Thr real Arturia herself is strong from the beginning, stat-wise. Archer, on the other hand, was not.
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Unread postby Soulshade » March 11th, 2009, 4:58 am

dont think archer can make it to saber. his stats r too sh!t even for an archer and archer stats r the worst compared to others. also his ubw is solely for throwing them around or shooting them around like arrows, not for fighting hand to hand against other servants unless its gil
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 5:09 am

Even then, is it a requirement for certain classes to set a minimum stat level? Archer still could have been summoned as Saber, just that his stats would be much weaker than Arturia's stats. It's not like every single hero in the Saber class is going to have the exactly same stats.

I always thought that a servant's identity was pretty much based off their noble phantasm since their noble phantasm is a proof of their heroism; thus, the title heroic spirits is attached to the heroic deeds that are tied into the Noble Phantasm. Archer's "Noble Phantasm" is a mirror of his psychology, lifestyle, and maybe ideals. So I think it is possible that Archer could have been in the Saber class because heroes are based off their "Noble Phantasms". Plus, we see him using a sword many more times than we see him using a bow.

But I don't know. I always thought it was weird that an Archer is using a variety of different swords when he only has one bow. It is true that he only needs one bow, but most of time, he seems to be using a sword in both his past and the present.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » March 11th, 2009, 5:18 am

But wait if Archer wasn't in the Archer class we wouldn't of given him the nickname of GARcher, and the gag would of probably lost all meaning as well.

In any case he could, but instead the Saber class was predetermined since Shirou had the ability to summon Saber into the following war. Even though he never knew that he had that ability until after she was summoned.
As for the stats change the only thing that changed was Saber's stats when she was under Tohsaka instead of Shirou, and how Rider was when she was under Sakura instead of Shinji.
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 5:18 am

Fuyuki wrote:Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
From what he seem to imply, "standard" means at least B. (in previous life)

TYPE-MOON WIKI wrote:Saber is one of the seven normal Servant classes summoned for the Holy Grail War. Servants placed within this class are agile and powerful melee warriors and it is commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories. It is one of the three Knight classes, together with Lancer and Archer, and also possesses the Riding skill like the Rider class.
So yeah. Archer is Archer. Not Arber or Sarcher.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 5:25 am

Shourai wrote:
Fuyuki wrote:Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
From what he seem to imply, "standard" means at least B. (in previous life)

TYPE-MOON WIKI wrote:Saber is one of the seven normal Servant classes summoned for the Holy Grail War. Servants placed within this class are agile and powerful melee warriors and it is commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories. It is one of the three Knight classes, together with Lancer and Archer, and also possesses the Riding skill like the Rider class.
So yeah. Archer is Archer. Not Arber or Sarcher.


Hmm... I see I see. I never knew there was such a requirement for the Saber class. Well, that actually puts my mind at ease, now that I know that Archer wasn't ripped off for not being summoned in a stronger class.
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Unread postby z2000 » March 11th, 2009, 10:23 am

Soulshade wrote:dont think archer can make it to saber. his stats r too sh!t even for an archer and archer stats r the worst compared to others. also his ubw is solely for throwing them around or shooting them around like arrows, not for fighting hand to hand against other servants unless its gil


Just felt like stating this...

Standard Archer
STR C CON C AGI C MGI E LCK E

Our Garcher
STR D CON C AGI C MGI B LCK E

He's pretty standard, and his shit strength was made up by his unusually high magical energy (for an archer anyways)

Let us also remember the servants in the last two wars were considerably stronger than usual, so Archer is pretty normal.
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 10:28 am

z2000 wrote:Let us also remember the servants in the last two wars were considerably stronger than usual, so Archer is pretty normal.
He got status boost from Alaya though...
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 1:13 pm

TYPE-MOON WIKI wrote:Saber is one of the seven normal Servant classes summoned for the Holy Grail War. Servants placed within this class are agile and powerful melee warriors and it is commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories. It is one of the three Knight classes, together with Lancer and Archer, and also possesses the Riding skill like the Rider class.


So you guys never think about it in terms that...

Because one is in Saber class.. one will be AUTOMATICALLY given high ratings... Coz.. He/She is forced to fight close range? To even things out...
Just like how once someone is in Berz clas.. will automatically be given INSANE ratings... but at the cost of mana... to even things out...

... So i think that 'high stats' is rather the byproduct of one when becoming a Saber class... Instead of a 'requirement' per se...
(just like how the byproduct of the berz class is mana INDULGE... Caster's crap physicals.. Assassin being weak against Servents.. etc.)


..
....

ALSO! Remember that in the game Rin once explained that the three knight classes are the MOST BASIC... But also the BEST... So if you're calling the Archer class crappy.. that means something is not right coz its to be one of the top 3...

..
But lets continue on shall we?.. Later on Rin states that the Saber class was genarally believed (or quote: ASSUMED) to be the 'best' among the three... I personally think its mostly because of the more 'balanced' stats... Because Sabers are not given any advantages in the weapons that they are given...

Think about it... In a completely fair fight... Chances are.. The Lance/Bow&Arrow would either get the first attack range or the first blood against a sword weilder. So that in itself is an advantage, at the cost of Archer/Lancer's stats of course...\

So you can see Saber as the 'Default' knight stats mould... All stats ratio are ideal for a knight/warrior... with not much difference in shortcomings.
While Lancer would have his stats shifted into speed/agility plus an increase in weapons range... Takes much from defence stats i assume to be that fast.
And Archer would have MOST of his stats shifted to his weapons ability/accuracy... And like other Archers i assume, a 'stronger' NP than normal..

Quite personally.. I dont see any reason why Archer could not be summonned as a Saber. No doubt his stats would still be crappy for a servent.. but its his element... Remember what Rin said to Shirou about his 'element'? How some people's element is fire.. or water.. That sod of a kid called Shirou got 'Swords' as his element.. so go figgure..

Saber class could very well be the best form he could have been summoned to...
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 1:23 pm

Classes don't give Heroic Spirits any enhancement. They are merely the vessel of the Heroic Spirit themselves.

Fuyuki wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name. Whereas oracles and kuchiyose require the spirit to possess the speaker in order for them to temporarily exist in this era (in other words a container), a class is used as the container instead. Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.

Normally, when a Heroic Spirit gains a Servant Class, the one that fits the attributes of that Heroic Spirit is unavoidably determined. However, there are two class exceptions to this that the summoner can determine beforehand.

The first is Assassin. This is because of the special characteristic of those Heroic Spirits falling into those definitions being one of the assassins that had taken on the name of Hassan-i Sabbah.
The other class is Berserker as it is a class that allows for almost all Heroic Spirits to fall into its definitions by just the acceptance of one additional factor.

-Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.


"also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive" means something like Independent Action, Magic Resistance, etc, etc...

That's why Saber class is considered the best. Not because the enhancements it offers, but because Heroes that fall under this category are ranked among top-class Heroes.
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 1:28 pm

Shourai wrote:Classes don't give Heroic Spirits any enhancement. They are merely the vessel of the Heroic Spirit themselves.

Fuyuki wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name. Whereas oracles and kuchiyose require the spirit to possess the speaker in order for them to temporarily exist in this era (in other words a container), a class is used as the container instead. Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.

Normally, when a Heroic Spirit gains a Servant Class, the one that fits the attributes of that Heroic Spirit is unavoidably determined. However, there are two class exceptions to this that the summoner can determine beforehand.

The first is Assassin. This is because of the special characteristic of those Heroic Spirits falling into those definitions being one of the assassins that had taken on the name of Hassan-i Sabbah.
The other class is Berserker as it is a class that allows for almost all Heroic Spirits to fall into its definitions by just the acceptance of one additional factor.

-Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.


"also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive" means something like Independent Action, Magic Resistance, etc, etc...



Yup.. And Shirou never learned sword-fighting from Saber back when he was alive...
Neither did he train Archery with Taiga...
Nor did he has the 'Sword' element...

...

Yup.. Shirou is crappy indeed... Every ability he has as Arhcer was an ability he received after his death...

...
....
EDIT: yeah.. And all the greatest heroes of the world weild blades...

All hail the samurais and their katanas!
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 1:32 pm

inferno_flamex wrote:Yup.. And Shirou never learned sword-fighting from Saber back when he was alive...
Neither did he train Archery with Taiga...
Nor did he has the 'Sword' element...

...

Yup.. Shirou is crappy indeed... Every ability he has as Arhcer was an ability he received after his death...
He didn't train archery with Taiga, duh. Taiga is the supervisor, not the coach.

And I think you're proving nothing by that sarcasm. EMIYA was summoned as Archer because that's the only class he would fit by those status as a Servant. "Sword" element is useless, even when your main weapons are swords is useless if you don't meet the minimum status requirement.

And I never said anything about all top notch heroes using swords. Let me make this clear, then: there are TWO requirements for Saber Class:
1. A sword user (at least, can wield a sword well)
2. Status must be no less than standard.

One is not fulfilled? No Saber, that's that.
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 2:47 pm

Shourai wrote:Classes don't give Heroic Spirits any enhancement. They are merely the vessel of the Heroic Spirit themselves.

To call them merely (dont give any ehancement)... is giving them way too little credit. Berz' Mad Enhacement is an enhancement nonetheless...


Fuyuki wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name.


I agree!... Just a name to avoid people knowing their true identity.

Fuyuki wrote:Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. [/b]The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.


Meaning of Definitions...
Wikipedia wrote:A definition is a statement of the meaning of a word or phrase.

A definition consists of the genus (the family) of thing to which the defined thing belongs, and the differentia (the distinguishing feature which marks it off from other members of the same family


I think we can swap 'members of the same family' with.. 'servents' or 'class' in this piece of info.. making it...

Wikipedia wrote:A definition consists of the genus (the family Class) of thing to which the defined thing Heroic Spirit belongs, and the differentia (the distinguishing feature which marks it off from other 'servents'


So... "Only those that have a definition of the class are summonned" into that class... Meaning that to be a Saber one must weild a sword right?
... We only know 3 versions of Shirou... And in HF route we were told that there are 'unlimited parallel worlds' (Rin VS Sakura)... not just the 3 that we are familiar with... And even with that... We know that young UBW Shirou has already traced a working swordfighting style for him...

You might say that UBW Shirou might not have what it takes to be 'Archer'.. But still his fate in UBW has not been confirmed...

AND as parallel worlds are infinite.. There is an infinite possibility for him to learn Archer's moves and yet be 'Archer'... Even Archer himself does not know how he came to be a counter guardian or why... We have no right to judge what he has learned or he does not learn in his 'lifetime'...

We have no idea how strong he's going to be... Simply because the Shirou/Shirous we know is not yet dead...
One can even debate that there might be 'another' Archer out there in some parallel universe...

An Archer that would still not forget his ideals (Fate route).. and one that would attemp to destroy it after all these years (UBW)

....

Fuyuki wrote:The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.


Quote: additional class-specific abilities
They cannot learn anything more than what they know in their lifetime... Lancer wouldnt know how to shoot a bow or have bow-related skills if he hasnt used one before... Not the case of Shirou.. Coz he knows both Archery/Swordsmanship at least to some extent...
...

But...
Shourai wrote:Classes don't give Heroic Spirits any enhancement. They are merely the vessel of the Heroic Spirit themselves.

Wouldnt being 'equipped with ADDITIONAL class-specific abilities after death' be a form of 'class enhancement?' Just like how Berz's Mad Enhance-... Oh wait.. Im repeating myself...

Contradiction of facts.


And lets not forget that throughout his time in the Archery Dojo... He only missed ONCE... And even that.. He WILLS it to miss...

It was even confirmed that while other's falter, he hit the target before then... So even if Taiga was just a coach or supervisor or even a cheerleader.. Shirou has greater archery skills than others he's age... And with the training he received from Saber, as well as tracing Archer's technique.. He was able to match up to Kazuki for awhile.. A trained coldblooded, and might i say a fully grown ADULT, (ex?) killer...


Fuyuki wrote:Normally, when a Heroic Spirit gains a Servant Class, the one that fits the attributes of that Heroic Spirit is unavoidably determined. However, there are two class exceptions to this that the summoner can determine beforehand.


I would like to quote NORMAL.. Shirou's not a normal heroic spirit/servent.. Isnt he? And I dont see any problem if his stat is 'unavoidably determined'.. I will get back to that later...

Fuyuki wrote:The first is Assassin. This is because of the special characteristic of those Heroic Spirits falling into those definitions being one of the assassins that had taken on the name of Hassan-i Sabbah.
The other class is Berserker as it is a class that allows for almost all Heroic Spirits to fall into its definitions by just the acceptance of one additional factor.


And i also agree that with that.. Shirou has eligibility to Berz class as well...

-Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.


And.. The 'standards' of all Sabers to be is?... Once again.. I quote your fuyuki...
TYPE-MOON WIKI wrote:assumed[/u] to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories


Meaning = Saber class ASSUMED to be best overall... also ASSUMED to have high ratings in all categories.

....
........

Shourai wrote:
Let me make this clear, then: there are TWO requirements for Saber Class:
1. A sword user (at least, can wield a sword well)
2. Status must be no less than standard.


1) Forgetting his element and affinity for swords for abit... UBW Shirou weilded twin swords, his own 'future technique' even, the best swordsman Shirou we know... Plus, other infinite parallel universe Shirous makes this requirement very much achievable...

2) A 'standard' that is ASSUMED to be high... Based on known Saber standards... At the current. up to the latest 5th Holy Grail.. And as even so, Arthuria was summoned as Saber twice.. So even if his stat was 'unavoidably determined' to be lower.. Should he still be above the 'required' standard.. He pass.


Shourai wrote:One is not fulfilled? No Saber, that's that.

...
Both still looks fulfilled to me... Guess that is that then!
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 3:09 pm

I don't know where you are trying to get by twisting words like that. The definition is simple and clear.
Fuyuki wrote:all stats must be no less than standard


TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:with high ratings in all categories.


And I would like to point that the full quote of the second one is "commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories.". The assumption is just the "best class" part. The high ratings part is another story. So if I'm going to read it the other way around, it becomes: "Saber is assumed to be the best class because of the high ratings in all categories".

So even if Taiga was just a coach or supervisor or even a cheerleader.. Shirou has greater archery skills than others he's age... And with the training he received from Saber, as well as tracing Archer's technique.. He was able to match up to Kazuki for awhile.. A trained coldblooded, and might i say a fully grown ADULT, (ex?) killer...
I never contradicted that Shirou is good in archery. I merely stated that Taiga is a supervisor; Shirou didn't learn anything from her.

So... "Only those that have a definition of the class are summonned" into that class... Meaning that to be a Saber one must weild a sword right?
I never contradict that.

Wouldnt being 'equipped with ADDITIONAL class-specific abilities after death' be a form of 'class enhancement?' Just like how Berz's Mad Enhance-... Oh wait.. Im repeating myself...
I must have made myself quite unclear, then. I mean additional enhancement in RAW Servant status. Maybe there's a bit of up and down here and there, but it ain't gonna get you any stronger at all in RAW STATUS.

Meaning = Saber class ASSUMED to be best overall... also ASSUMED to have high ratings in all categories.
Again, twisting words isn't going to get you anywhere. They use the word "assumed" because that's the most likely thing to happen. Canon materials stated it. Saber herself stated it (somewhere in Fate, cannot remember).

Fuyuki wrote:-Saber - Servant type in which all stats must be no less than standard, excluding MGI, in order to qualify.
"Must be no less than standard". You know what is this implying? The standard is high. High enough that no average heroes like Archer can reach. Of course, high is subjective, but we all know from the examples of Servants summoned in Fuyuki Grail War which one is high-standard and which one is not. Demigods are high standard. Monsters are high standard. Faeries / dragon incarnations are high standard. Sorceress from the Age of The God is high-standard. Normal human (who is just barely an average Magus)? Meh.

Off topic, but
Shirou has eligibility to Berz class as well...
Berserker class is for those who have ever gone berserk at least once in their life. Berserk can be in the meaning of throwing tantrum and destroying everything on sight or committing "mass murder" (like Herc and Lancelot).

I would like to point this at you: specifically picking up someone's word (note : a word, not a line) and twisting it the other way around you like isn't going to get you anywhere. Sorry if I sound like this, but truth still holds that

TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:Servants placed within this class are agile and powerful melee warriors and it is commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories. It is one of the three Knight classes, together with Lancer and Archer, and also possesses the Riding skill like the Rider class.


If you still gonna go twist-twist, go ahead then. Proof from two wikis have already stand, and I'm wasting my time if you're just focusing on one word and not the main point. :P
Spoiler tagged because it's long. :P
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 3:25 pm

The thing i dont get is that you're assuming too much...

An assumption is still an assumption...

As someone i know once told me...

ASSUME
It makes an ASS out of U and ME

Most likely.. is still.. just a very very much likelyhood and not a complete truth...
...

99% success is still 1% failure...

You call the way i talk as 'twisting'? But you've got to admit... That its in a way a part of the truth...

...
Kind of off topic example...

People say that a straight line is a straight line...
But can you see that a straight line to the direction of infinity... is a circle?

...Maybe im not getting to you anyway..
And i am tired as well..

But if you're not going to start thinking out of the box and question those facts that are given to you...
Then there's no point in debating.
Coz you cant provide the answers i you need to shut me up coz you know that im still at least 1% correct..

Shirou/Archer... most likely never be Saber class... could still be in one if that fact was not " WILL never be "...
Because that was what this whole thread is about...

First post...
TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class?


Can he?...
Then yes he can... Its gonna be one big huge of a jackpot chance.. But yes he can...

Just like how you can steal money from the bank... but dont expect it to be easy
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Unread postby Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 3:36 pm

Most likely.. is still.. just a very very much likelyhood and not a complete truth...
There is no complete truth in literary works unless the author stated it himself as a fact. But we can make speculations. And from the speculations we can draw an argument / assumption. And then from the argument we can create a discussion. From the discussion, we can draw a conclusion that holds true for all known basis.

You call the way i talk as 'twisting'? But you've got to admit... That its in a way a part of the truth...
You're missing the main point of the argument like that, though...

inferno_flamex wrote:Coz you cant provide the answers i you need to shut me up coz you know that im still at least 1% correct..
I suppose you're talking about "infinite possibilities of alternate worlds" here, so...

Shirou/Archer... most likely never be Saber class... could still be in one if that fact was not " WILL never be "...
Because that was what this whole thread is about...

First post...
TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class?


Can he?...
Then yes he can... Its gonna be one big huge of a jackpot chance.. But yes he can...

Just like how you can steal money from the bank... but dont expect it to be easy


TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class?
Topic was... Archer. Not Shirou. Not Emiya. Archer. Can HF5 Archer be summoned as Saber? No. Because he (his stats) doesn't qualify.
Shourai
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 11th, 2009, 3:41 pm

Whoa, such a heated debate. I luurve this :lol:

Well, from what I can figure, Archer lacks the quality of being summoned into Saber class, thus rendering him largely improbable to be summoned into that particular class. Still, what inferno said isn't completely off-base in my honest opinion. Going by the "alternate world" theory or "assume" part, who knows? :D
When will I get my 1337th post?
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