Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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Chaos Chaud
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Unread post by Chaos Chaud » April 8th, 2009, 10:52 pm

No, Black Berserker >>>>>>>>>> Fate/UBW/HF(non black) Berserker.
No, Shirou himself says that Black Berserker was blind, wounded, and his body was rotting. So Berserker was in a better condition than the black one..
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Shourai
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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 1:04 am

@RedArcher:
► Show Spoiler
VEEERY BIG tl;dr :
1. Not necessarily all heroes have godlike status. That's why Servant Classes are created; to classify heroes among their levels.
2. Heroes are people who had broken through human limits. They are FAR beyond normal human's capabilities. That's why they became heroes. Using them to determine human limits is utterly baseless; they already broke through human limitations.
Inverted wrote:Counter-Guardians ARE Heroic Spirits.They are Heroes who used worlds help to perform something and the world got a Hero in compensation. Oh and Joan of Arc is also a CG.
They are not true Heroic Spirits. Their powers are below those of true Heroic Spirits. That's why they need the World's power for them to become heroes, in exchange of being forced into a mindless Counter Force.

@Reidwhateverzisname:
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Unread post by TheRedArcher » April 9th, 2009, 2:08 am

I finally looked up what tl;dr means. hm. I guess my posts are a little long. Then I will try to simplify as much as I can.

But the main point of my last post is that: it does not matter if Archer is a hero or not. The only thing that is important is whether Archer can get a stat change. This is what I am basing my argument on. I am putting out possibilities where he can get stat upgrades or downgrades.

I could care less about who is stronger than who. But I do care about is how strong a human can become WITHOUT being a servant.
This is why I usually refer to Assassin, Emiya, and nameless warriors in legends. With this, we can find the POTENTIAL of humans (not servants) and can find the POTENTIAL of Emiya. And we can also find out if people can break limits WITHOUT being heroes. Can humans break human limits? I say yes, I placed the reason in earlier posts.

Comments to Shourai's comments-

True. I don't know if there was cannon fodder littered across the battlefield. But I do know this. With the Knights of the Round Table backed up with their own army, they are a very lethal force. If the enemies were truly cannon fodder, then being Saber, Lancelot or some famous warrior must have been like playing Dynasty Warriors on easy. There can 500,000 soldiers but if each of their stats were below E and did not have a NP, the warrior can literally rip the opponents to shreds with his servant class strength. BUT, it still wasn't easy fighting off the enemies. which means that there must have been opponents that at least have servant class stats.

Once again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT NPs. I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT NPs IN THIS TOPIC. I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE STATS. ARCHER'S NP IS NOT RESTRICTING HIM FROM THE SABER CLASS, HIS STATS ARE. The human heroes of the past also had servant class stats, what does that say about human limits? That means limited to at least Rank A+ stats (since the human servant Sasaki had A+ agility, note that Sasaki is used an example of a human servant reaching a godly stat). Which is more than enough for the Saber class.

1. I didn't say all servants have godlike statuses. I am saying that you are comparing Assassin to the top of the cream servants, such as Arturia and Hercules. BUT. All servants, except for Avenger, have godlike stats compared to HUMANS. A very average servant's stats are incomparable to a human's strength.
2. Then what about defying destiny and breaking the laws of physics? These things are not within human limits. Emiya altered destiny through the power of the world. He may not be the source of power, but he is the one who initiated it, caused it; therefore, responsible for the changed destiny. Koujirou, broke the freakin laws of physics to use his Tsubame Gaeshi (There better be one hell of a explanation if this is considered within human limits).

Shourai, if this post is still too long for you, at least read this part.

You say that facts in the game and side materials point out that Archer can not be summoned as Saber. Please point out these facts that bluntly say or imply that Archer cannot be in the Saber Class. Not one of the evidence that you have provided is definite proof that Archer cannot be Saber. Note that we are trying to find out whether Emiya can be Saber, not whether he is a hero.

I am trying to truncate this to the best of my ability, but it is hard when there is a lot to talk about.
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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 3:05 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
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... Basically it comes down to this, again, again, again, and again.

1. You claim that you couldn't care less of Archer being a hero or not. Then what's your support for him to be able to break through human limitations? Mind you, if Archer is a true hero, that means he already broke through the limit. But Archer is not a hero. OK, then you are claiming that it doesn't require a hero to break through human limitations, with Assassin as an example. How many times must I point out that Assassin and Archer are entirely different individual? What's your base for claiming that "if Assassin can do it, Archer can also do it"? It's already said that Assassin has a demonic technique, a technique of God which is unable to be performed by logic. Assassin had the talent. Archer had none.

2. You're asking whether it's possible for Archer to push beyond what he already is now. The answer is no. Simple. Shirou himself stated that he has already reached the maximum potential he can be. Archer is already the best version Emiya Shirou can be. Must I go through all that and re-post the quotes from the game?

3. All those points I quoted are fragments of implication that Archer cannot be summoned as Saber. Were you drowsing as you browse through these arguments? Ok, I'll add one more:
TM WIKI wrote:Archer is introduced as a failed summoning by Tohsaka Rin; aware but not remembering that her clock was an hour fast, she performs the summoning ritual an hour early ahead of her peak mana level, supposedly resulting in the summoning of Archer rather than Saber (rather, the summoning catalyst is to blame).
This clearly indicates that EMIYA cannot be summoned as Saber. Or, if Rin were to use other catalyst, she might have gotten a Saber (because she won't be summoning EMIYA by then).

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Unread post by sabata2 » April 9th, 2009, 4:10 am

You're missing the whole "max power" thing and you are tying classes to spirits to easily.

Your argument is broken down thusly:

The Pendant was used in the summoning
therefore
EMIYA would be summoned
(^^^ works)

Rin was aiming for a Saber class Servant.
Rin made a mistake and summoned her Servant to early.
therefore
Rin's Servant would not be of Saber class.
(^^^ works)

EMIYA would be summoned.
Rin's Servant would not be of Saber class.
therefore
EMIYA can never be of Saber class.
(^^^ what?)


The real flow of logic is thus:

EMIYA would be summoned.
Rin's Servant would not be of Saber class.
therefore
EMIYA would not be of Saber class from this summoning.


Your argument assumes that even at the correct timing Rin would have summoned Archer.
And you can't prove that.
WE on the other hand, can take the second argument given in this post as reasoning for why GARcher CAN be SArcher.

Rin messed up the summoning.
Rin was aiming for Saber class.
therefore
Rin didn't get Saber class.

Well... what if she DIDN'T mess up? Seems possible then.
The Pendant assures EMIYA's summoning.
So the only reason left he could be NOT saber is due to "the mistake".
Remove the mistake, and viola, you have the possibility of SArcher.

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » April 9th, 2009, 4:27 am

Shourai wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:
► Show Spoiler
... Basically it comes down to this, again, again, again, and again.

1. You claim that you couldn't care less of Archer being a hero or not. Then what's your support for him to be able to break through human limitations? Mind you, if Archer is a true hero, that means he already broke through the limit. But Archer is not a hero. OK, then you are claiming that it doesn't require a hero to break through human limitations, with Assassin as an example. How many times must I point out that Assassin and Archer are entirely different individual? What's your base for claiming that "if Assassin can do it, Archer can also do it"? It's already said that Assassin has a demonic technique, a technique of God which is unable to be performed by logic. Assassin had the talent. Archer had none.

2. You're asking whether it's possible for Archer to push beyond what he already is now. The answer is no. Simple. Shirou himself stated that he has already reached the maximum potential he can be. Archer is already the best version Emiya Shirou can be. Must I go through all that and re-post the quotes from the game?

3. All those points I quoted are fragments of implication that Archer cannot be summoned as Saber. Were you drowsing as you browse through these arguments? Ok, I'll add one more:
TM WIKI wrote:Archer is introduced as a failed summoning by Tohsaka Rin; aware but not remembering that her clock was an hour fast, she performs the summoning ritual an hour early ahead of her peak mana level, supposedly resulting in the summoning of Archer rather than Saber (rather, the summoning catalyst is to blame).
This clearly indicates that EMIYA cannot be summoned as Saber. Or, if Rin were to use other catalyst, she might have gotten a Saber (because she won't be summoning EMIYA by then).
First off, I did not browse thorough, I already addressed as to why it does not matter it Archer is a hero or not. And I already gave reasons as to how Archer can be stronger. Perhaps you should actually READ my posts before commenting on mine.

Shourai, I suggest you read my entire post this time. How can you say you are countering my argument when you aren't even reading it. I know my posts are very very long. But you should at least take a look at the post in its entirety. Too many times have I seen the letters tl;dr


I will restate my reasons right here.

1. Archer being a hero does not necessarily change his stats. As YOU said before, a servant's strength is not that different from his or her actual strength when he or she was alive. But I present two more points A) human heroes have shown that the human potential is vast, B) Even if humans have a certain limits, they can be broken without actually being a hero. With A, it shows that humans can reach great levels; therefore, Emiya also has the potential to have good stats.

If you argue that those human heroes broke human limits because they are heroes, then it goes to point B. Humans do not have to be heroes to break the limits, Emiya and Sasaki, who YOU said are not heroes, both achieve things that are beyond human limits. Emiya was able to go against destiny and Sasaki broke the laws of physics. You point out that Sasaki and Emiya are two different people. Yes, they are, but it does not change that they are both human and are not heroes. I am claiming that "breaking human limits is possible without being a hero" and using Emiya and Sasaki as examples. As of now, I am not comparing Sasaki and Emiya against each other. And since Emiya has limits when looking at point B, they can be broken because humans have the ability to break limits.

2. Archer is the pinnacle of hard work for Emiya. But that is just it, only hard work. There are many other things that are factored in when counting potential. For example, I myself will probably never run 100m in 7 seconds no matter how hard I work. I can try as hard as I can but I can never do it. It is impossible, that is my limit. But what if one day, I received a cyborg body? My potential has been changed. This is a strength I could not get through hard work. Same thing with Emiya, Emiya's hard work will probably only get him to Archer's level. BUT, the future is not set in stone. Just by receiving Archer's arm, Shirou's physical potential was influenced and changed. He was able to run 50 km/h (even without using Archer's Arm), something he could NEVER do before, no matter how hard he tried. He can even match the talented Kotomine in speed. Shirou's potential was changed. HF Shirou is only an example of how Shirou's potential is not limited. If one Shirou from one timeline was able to increase his potential, there will be other Shirous who also go through a potential increase. And some of those other Shirous can become Emiyas and can possibly have an increased stat change and can be recorded in Alaya.

You say that Emiya can never go beyond Archer. I disagree. The quotes you used from the game were words that were limited by hard work. Archer only used skills polished by his hard work. At this point, how does Shirou know that he will never be stronger than Archer, at this point, he doesn't even know Archer is his future self. Therefore, he can't comment anything about how Archer is Shirou's limit. Shirou is commenting on how beautiful this hard earned skill and technique really is, nothing more. Not once did he state that that is his limit. Not once did he say that Archer's limit is as shown in the battle. Not once did Shirou say that Archer is the pinnacle that he will ever be.

The third doesn't imply that Archer cannot be summoned in the Saber class. In fact, that quote supports possibility number one from my other post. Rin screwed up and got an Archer, who possibly has lowered stats. Your TM Wiki quote actually says that Rin messed up bad. The quote even says that Archer is the RESULT of the summoning, which your TM Wiki quote goes into detail how Rin messed up. First off, the jewel catalyst can only summon Emiya because of the strong connection between Emiya and Rin and the connection between the jewel and Emiya. If Rin uses a different catalyst, then Rin wouldn't even be summoning Emiya in the first place. We are not questioning whether Rin can summon a Saber, but if Emiya can be a Saber. In fact, the quote is actually implying that Rin can actually summon Saber. The catalyst does not control what class the servant is summoned in, unless that particular hero can only be summoned in that one class. But that quote does not prove that Emiya can only be summoned in the Archer class. In Fate/Zero, it has been said that there are only two servants that you can definitely call out in advance, Assassin and Berserker. So even if Rin really really wanted a Saber, it is still up to luck. Keep in mind that Fate/Zero is considered canon.

Your quote does not prove that Archer can't be Sarcher.

Keep in mind, That I think the chances of Archer being Sarcher are very very low. Reasons are stated in my other posts. But as long as there is that possibility, that means that it is not impossible.
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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 4:59 am

TheRedArcher wrote:Shourai, I suggest you read my entire post this time. How can you say you are countering my argument when you aren't even reading it. I know my posts are very very long. But you should at least take a look at the post in its entirety. Too many times have I seen the letters tl;dr
What are you doing? Boasting over your pages long post? I do read the entire post instead of just dismissing it. I wouldn't bother separating my answers per quote if it weren't for that. Tl;dr is pointed at my own explanation; to simplify the points I want to prove. I won't use tl;dr to point at someone else.
► Show Spoiler
And from what base you claim that EMIYA can break through the limits? Because "if someone else can do it, he can do it too"? It's already been pointed out over and over and over again that EMIYA had little to no talent to begin with. Going as far as Archer's level is already the best he can do.
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You can twist your words as you like; it won't change the facts stated in the game. Go on, I still can easily find more and point it to you; they're all scattered across the game.
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Also, what good if EMIYA somehow has a different body? The fact stands that his body is already the best suited for his abilities (that he must use burial cloth to prevent interference from his surroundings). And mind you Kotomine is not talented. Where did you get this from? It's been said again and again that Kotomine just "copied" the foundation of Tohsaka (by training his magecraft as well as martial arts), and that he is mediocre as a magus. He just have more experience than Shirou, that's it.
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This is directed to both you and sabata2: read the bolded part. The catalyst is to blame why she didn't get Saber. She can only get EMIYA with that catalyst. Which leads to the first conclusion that if she had summoned a hero other than EMIYA, she might have gotten Saber. Which leads further to the conclusion that "Heroic Spirit EMIYA cannot be summoned as Saber".

Oh and also, if you could come up with facts rather than just "what ifs", it would be appreciated. As I said, it's tiring to deal with people who beg the questions. :P

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Unread post by Inverted » April 9th, 2009, 5:16 am

I'd like to add something about heroes, but as the discussion has moved on I'll drop it for now.

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Unread post by sabata2 » April 9th, 2009, 5:16 am

Then by your logic, the Rock Axe means the Hercules can NEVER be summoned as something other than Berzerker.

The catalyst is to blame why Illiya didn't get Saber.
She can only get Hercules with that catalyst.
Which leads to the first conclusion that if she had summoned a hero other than Hercules, she might have gotten Saber.
Which leads further to the conclusion that "Heroic Spirit Hercules cannot be summoned as Saber".

Dude, your argument fails on SO many levels.

All I did was replace Who summoned Who in your "logical" argument, and it completely falls apart BECAUSE it is given FACTS that Hercules can be ANY class besides Caster.


Face it, your "Catalyst" argument will never win for you.
The only logical route is the one I've told you, which means BACK OFF ON NO SARCHER.
He can't be proven non-existant, and because there are no rules prior stated limiting GARcher from being SArcher, there IS POSSIBILITY SArcher exists.

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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 5:32 am

sabata2 wrote:Then by your logic, the Rock Axe means the Hercules can NEVER be summoned as something other than Berzerker.
But then again, look at Berserker's status. Compare it to Archer's status. Can that status be used to place him in a class different from Archer? Or specifically, Saber? Oh yeah, I forget, you would certainly say "yes" without providing any evidence. You're bringing me back to the very beginning of the argument.

1. Saber must have high ratings in all categories excluding MGI.
2. Archer has crappy stats, so
3. Archer cannot be summoned as Saber.

and 4. Since Rin wanted Saber, but summoned EMIYA instead, who cannot be Saber, Rin got Archer.

Also, must I remind you that the summoning of Berserker class can be predetermined by the addition of 1 line in the summoning chant? The Einzbern wanted to get Berserker; they started summoning before the War even began, so they can predetermine what they are going to summon.
Face it, your "Catalyst" argument will never win for you.
The only logical route is the one I've told you, which means BACK OFF ON NO SARCHER.
He can't be proven non-existant, and because there are no rules prior stated limiting GARcher from being SArcher, there IS POSSIBILITY SArcher exists.
Ahh, as I have thought, it's difficult to deal with people who only knows to beg the question and ask "what if" without providing concrete evidence. The rule still exists that Saber must have good status all around; if you want to deny it, then you deny Nasuverse.
TM Wiki wrote:Saber

Saber is one of the seven normal Servant classes summoned for the Holy Grail War. Servants placed within this class are agile and powerful melee warriors and it is commonly assumed to be the best class overall, with high ratings in all categories. It is one of the three Knight classes, together with Lancer and Archer, and also possesses the Riding skill like the Rider class.
I can't believe how you managed to bring me back to the very beginning of this argument, disregarding all the points we (not just me, we) have discussed.

YOU face it; there's no way a Servant with crappy status like Archer can be summoned into Saber class. Fact please, dude. Begging the question and pointing "what ifs" is not an answer. So are insulting and pestering people to drop their argument without further explanations.

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Unread post by sabata2 » April 9th, 2009, 6:26 am

No YOU face it. Your argument is based on an assumption completely.
That EMIYA can only be summoned into Archer class.

Your freaking argument goes in circles!

Rin Summoned EMIYA because of the stone.
EMIYA cannot be Saber.
Therefore Rin got EMIYA as Archer.


Dude, I can not believe how convoluted your logic is.
PROVE THE BOLD TEXT TO ME!

Next you say look at their stats.

So WE point out to you they could be sub-optimal due to the summoning.
You can't counter it.

So you try to defend another way.
The pendant!

But the pendant only signifies that EMIYA will be summoned, nothing more.
Your argument fails.


And you are getting pissed at people "begging the question" then man up yourself and start practicing what you preach!

If EMIYA can not be summoned into Saber class. PROVE IT.

I can guarantee ANY argument you bring up will be shot down because I can cast doubt upon it.

Because YOU are begging the question of "What if there ARE NO what if's?"

You are cutting off any other possibilities to create your own little world where you can try to twist and turn only what you can see.
But regardless, you wouldn't be able to prove us wrong.


Face it Shourai.
You lost this one.

I'll dance your dance if you insist on trying to prove me wrong, but in the end you will get nowhere.

You can't prove the existence of SArcher to be impossible, therefore it IS possible regardless of how likely it is.



Reason why Archer's Stats are sub-optimal for "Saberification":

Rin screwed up the summoning of EMIYA.
therefore
One side effect is EMIYA has decreased stats.

Boom, now he can fit into Saber :O
And you can't say shit back to that BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PROVE OTHERWISE!

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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 6:36 am

Man, you really lost me. You don't provide any facts, just rambling to the content of your heart. What have I been doing, you don't take your time to bother and read it now, do you?

I already proved otherwise. In case your memory is too vague to even remember this one, I'll provide it to you, again.
► Show Spoiler
Yell around you like. It was not me who said it; it was Archer. You want to refute it? Fine, provide me some facts from any canon source that negates that statement, then. Don't just make it up yourself.

Well? Canon sources are stronger than just speculation now, isn't it? Archer said he didn't lose anything besides trivial things like his name (this is canon source, btw). You say he's bluffing? Showing off? Fine, provide any facts with equal weight (aka canon source) to counter that statement.

Aah, I forget to add these ones:
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Why did Archer obey Rin's orders if he thinks dropping down a whole rank is trivial to him?

Oh, on another note, Shirou himself stated that Archer is the optimal point he can be. So? Looking for any version of EMIYA which is stronger than Archer seems to be not an option now, is it?
Last edited by Shourai on April 9th, 2009, 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by sabata2 » April 9th, 2009, 6:51 am

Oh I suggest you reread that statement.

Not once does he say that he ONLY lost his memory.

He only says he lost his memory and that what he lost is unimportant.


Follow it through logically

EMIYA lost his memory through the failed summoning.
therefore
EMIYA ONLY lost his memory through the failed summoning.


And there goes THAT proof.
Not only does the conclusion not originate from the claims every time, but the claim IS the conclusion.


And just to throw even more speculation on it.

Archer states he can beat Berzerker.
Archer loses.
therefore
Archer overestimates his abilities.

Archer states what is lost is trivial.
Archer overestimates his abilities.
therefore
Archer could believe any stat loss to be trivial.

Thus shedding even MORE doubt that the Stats GARcher has in the VN are his "best" stats, which would negate him from allowance into Saber Class.

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Unread post by rastilin » April 9th, 2009, 7:04 am

I intended to stay out of this but I really have to say something.
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I'm pretty sure he just habitually lies about everything. His memories and Berzerker. Immediately afterwards when Rin tells him to look around town, he replies with "I'm sure it won't be a surprise" or something to that effect.

Also I'm surprised that being chosen by the world wouldn't qualify as "heroic". Heroes like Saber and misc get their Eirai abilities from the wishes of humanity. However that only works if you're famous, if you just stuck in the background you wouldn't get that no matter how strong you were. The pact with the world is a substitute for that fame. It doesn't influence his "Heroism" one way or the other.

Personally I doubt his stats go any higher. Pretty much all the other servants are either gods, related to gods, or some mythical demon. Only Emiya and the Samurai dude are mortal. I don't remember what his (Assasin's) stats are but I'd be surprised if they surpassed Archer. Well that and True Assasin, still he wasn't strong either.

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Unread post by Shourai » April 9th, 2009, 7:05 am

sabata2 wrote:Stuff
Aah, I forgot to add these points:
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Why did he obey Rin's order if he thinks losing one rank is a trivial matter to him? And oh yes, the Berserker one. Archer said that he was going to beat Berserker. Well, he did, didn't he? 6 times. 6 times, before he was finally defeated by the everlasting resurrection of Berserker. Don't tell me that you actually need a screenshot to prove that Archer kicked Berserker's ass 6 times in Fate?

Rastilin pretty much put a summary about what I was saying to "EMIYA can still go higher" argument there. :) I'll just add the quote from earlier:
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by Message » April 9th, 2009, 7:19 am

/me invokes rule number 1. Shourai, OUT. Sabata2, OUT.

Thread locked due to general stupidity. Way to go, people.

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